From research@genderlinks.org.za Mon Nov 18 07:47:30 2002 From: research@genderlinks.org.za (research) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 09:47:30 +0200 Subject: [Egemtraining] This week's discussion topic: Lets Talk!!! Message-ID: <000a01c28ed6$c05cadc0$0e00a8c0@ALICEK> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C28EE7.8307C7F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear All I am sure most of you have been itching to receive the first discussion = topic and are ready to roll!!! I have been keenly waiting to start as = weel. Below is the discussion topic and the question at the end of the = piece. Please remember not to make your contribution too long. Just = comment as briefly as possible to give others a chance to also share = their opinions. Also remember to "reply to all" so that you do not share = your opinion just with me but with all in the network. Happy reading and = looking forward to hearing your opinions!!! Where does culture start and stop, and individual rights begin? =20 I am sure most of us are aware of the controversial ongoing court case = in Swaziland between a mother (Lindiwe Dlamini) and the King (his aides) = concerning the abduction of an 18-year-old-child (Zena) Mahlangu for = "royal duties".=20 =20 For those who have not been following the case, the King (who is being = sued through his aides, is alleged to have abducted the child from = school without her mother's knowledge and consent. Lindiwe wants her = child to be returned to her custody and the King has been arguing that = the child is being kept at the Royal Guest House to be prepared to be = the King's 10th wife. The King was quoted as saying at a press = conference, "The whole issue has been blown out of proportion by those = who took advantage of trying to destroy our customs and traditions". = People may say whatever they want to sy but I vow to stick to our = traditions, no matter what the times are. I can be blamed left and = right, but the fact of the matter is that it is our culture that I = should marry many wives as I can. I cannot allow myself to be forced to = follow Western culture". =20 =20 The controversy is generally seen as a "clash between customs and = modernity". According to custom, Mswati may choose a new wife each year = from among the thousands of virgins who attend the annual reed dance". = Ironically Mswati last year revived a traditional ban on sex with = underage girls to combat HIV/AIDS.=20 =20 After protests for the abduction of Zena and two other girls, the King = fined himself a cow for breaking his own royal decree. (BBC News). He = was also quoted as saying that he was prepared to pay cows as fines for = selecting the three girls.=20 =20 Zena's mother is challenging the alleged traditional grabbing of her = daughter on the grounds that she was not consulted, did not consent and = her child has been taken out of school and therefore was abducted. The = King's courtiers (aides) have been arguing that the girl was not = abducted but went willingly. "Everything was arranged between the King = and the girl and our job was just to pick her at the agreed spot. No = force was applied". =20 Human rights activists have been arguing that "traditionalists should = stop "raping" girls in the name of culture, while royals have been = insisting that Mswati's selection of Zena to be his bride is a = traditional issue that must be resolved through Swazi customs and = culture. =20 =20 Gender and human rights activists have noted that Zena is a minor child = (18 years) and the abduction is a criminal offence in that it violates=20 1) Lindiwe Dlamini's rights to custody and guardianship over her minor = child and also that; 2) Zena's rights to liberty, freedom of movement, education, choice of = marriage partner, right to be a child and bodily integrity. =20 Most of us are, I am sure, aware that Swaziland is signatory to the SADC = Declaration on Gender and Development which commits it in article (vii) = to, among other things, protecting the human rights of women and = children, which raises a number of concerns regarding this case.=20 =20 Question for Discussion =20 =20 1) Where should culture, custom and tradition stop and individual = human rights begin, to ensure the enjoyment of these rights especially = by women? Here women are singled out because most negative cultural = practices tend to disadvantage them more than men, since in patriarchal = societies men are the ones who define culture? Lets Talk!!! Alice Kwaramba Senior Researcher Gender Links 1 Ernest Oppenheimer Street Lower Ground Floor Lakeside Place Bruma, 2198 Johannesburg South Africa Tel: +27 11 622 2877/7796 Fax: +27 11 622 4732 Email: alice@genderlinks.org.za research@genderlinks.org.za URL: www.genderlinks.org.za ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C28EE7.8307C7F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear All
 
I am sure most of you have been itching = to receive=20 the first discussion topic and are ready to roll!!! I have been keenly = waiting=20 to start as weel. Below is the discussion topic and the question at the = end of=20 the piece. Please remember not to make your contribution too long. Just = comment=20 as briefly as possible to give others a chance to also share their = opinions.=20 Also remember to "reply to all" so that you do not share your opinion = just with=20 me but with all in the network. Happy reading and looking forward to = hearing=20 your opinions!!!
 
 

Where does culture start and = stop, and=20 individual rights begin?

 

I am sure most of us are aware of the=20 controversial ongoing court case in Swaziland between a mother (Lindiwe = Dlamini)=20 and the King (his aides) concerning the abduction of an = 18-year-old-child (Zena)=20 Mahlangu for =93royal duties=94.

 

For those who have not been = following the=20 case, the King (who is being sued through his aides, is alleged to have = abducted=20 the child from school without her mother=92s knowledge and consent. = Lindiwe wants=20 her child to be returned to her custody and the King has been arguing = that the=20 child is being kept at the Royal Guest House to be prepared to be the = King=92s=20 10th wife. The King was quoted as saying at a press = conference, =93The=20 whole issue has been blown out of proportion by those who took advantage = of=20 trying to destroy our customs and traditions=94. People may say whatever = they want=20 to sy but I vow to stick to our traditions, no matter what the times = are. I can=20 be blamed left and right, but the fact of the matter is that it is our = culture=20 that I should marry many wives as I can. I cannot allow myself to be = forced to=20 follow Western culture=94. =20

 

The controversy is generally seen as a = =93clash=20 between customs and modernity=94. According to custom, Mswati may choose = a new=20 wife each year from among the thousands of virgins who attend the annual = reed=20 dance=94. Ironically Mswati last year revived a traditional ban on sex = with=20 underage girls to combat HIV/AIDS.

 

After protests for the abduction of = Zena and two=20 other girls, the King fined himself a cow for breaking his own royal = decree.=20 (BBC News). He was also quoted as saying that he was prepared to pay = cows as=20 fines for selecting the three girls.

 

Zena=92s mother is challenging the = alleged=20 traditional grabbing of her daughter on the grounds that she was not = consulted,=20 did not consent and her child has been taken out of school and therefore = was=20 abducted. The King=92s courtiers (aides) have been arguing that the girl = was not=20 abducted but went willingly. =93Everything was arranged between the King = and the=20 girl and our job was just to pick her at the agreed spot. No force was=20 applied=94.

 

Human rights activists have been = arguing=20 that =93traditionalists should stop =93raping=94 girls in the name of = culture, while=20 royals have been insisting that Mswati=92s selection of Zena to be his = bride is a=20 traditional issue that must be resolved through Swazi customs and = culture. 

 

Gender and human rights activists have = noted that=20 Zena is a minor child (18 years) and the abduction is a criminal offence = in that=20 it violates

1) Lindiwe Dlamini=92s rights to = custody and=20 guardianship over her minor child and also that;

2) Zena=92s rights to liberty, freedom = of movement,=20 education, choice of marriage partner, right to be a child and bodily=20 integrity.

 

Most of us are, I am sure, aware that = Swaziland is=20 signatory to the SADC Declaration on Gender and Development which = commits it in=20 article (vii) to, among other things, protecting the human rights of = women=20 and children, which raises a number of concerns regarding this case. =

 

Question for Discussion  

 

1)      = Where should culture, custom and tradition stop and individual = human=20 rights begin, to ensure the enjoyment of these rights especially by = women? Here=20 women are singled out because most negative cultural practices tend to=20 disadvantage them more than men, since in patriarchal societies men are = the ones=20 who define culture?

 

 

 Lets = Talk!!!

 
 
 
 
Alice Kwaramba
Senior = Researcher
Gender=20 Links
1 Ernest Oppenheimer Street
Lower Ground Floor
Lakeside=20 Place
Bruma, 2198
Johannesburg
South Africa
Tel: +27 11 622=20 2877/7796
Fax: +27 11 622 4732
Email: alice@genderlinks.org.za
=          =20 research@genderlinks.org.za
URL:=20 www.genderlinks.org.za<= /DIV> ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C28EE7.8307C7F0-- From research@genderlinks.org.za Mon Nov 18 13:07:28 2002 From: research@genderlinks.org.za (research) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 15:07:28 +0200 Subject: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity References: <000a01c28ed6$c05cadc0$0e00a8c0@ALICEK> <00c001c28e26$311b7660$0f00a8c0@MOTH> Message-ID: <014201c28f03$72f6b580$0e00a8c0@ALICEK> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_013F_01C28F14.35D3DC30 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable hie all thanks for this Lindi.=20 I think Lindiwe has raised a number of interesting points which we may = want to make a follow up on. One which I find quite pertinent is the = whole concept of ubuntu and who in patriarchal societies constitutes = "us". The Swazi King talks on the need for the whole world to understand = who and how "us/we" as Swati people operate, as defined by "our" = culture. This is a very interesting definition of "us" in a society = where women are legally regarded as minors, and in my own = interpretation, therefore as part of the "other". Are Swazi women and = children part of "us" in the ubuntu concept in Swaziland, or they are = the "other" becuase of the gender dynamics that define "them" and "us" = in Swaziland? What do others think? Lets talk!!!=20 =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: lindiwe nkutha=20 To: research ; egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org=20 Sent: Sunday, November 17, 2002 12:43 PM Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity=20 Hi to all Its an interesting topic isn't it'? the convergence of human rights = and custom/ culture etc. Ideally these should not be mutually exclusive, = me thinks. I think also that in particular, southern African customs = that espouse or purport to espouse the principle of Ubuntu should not at = all have a problem with human rights. (but then again there are a lot of = things I think that are not necessarily fact). My rationale is if the = foundation of the concept of ubuntu which is said to recognise (albeit = philosophically) that "I am because you are" is our point of departure = then who I am is intrinsically linked to who you are. If you are free, = so am I free, if you are oppressed, so am I oppressed, and so on and so = on.=20 But because society loves an "other", and patriarchy has worked = wonders in "securing women's positions as others", patriarchy in a heavy = disguise as culture has always been used as the banner under which = abuses of human rights are perpetuated. So that the lines were blurred = and everytime we said "I am because you are" and we were speaking as = men, it almost felt natural, cultural, in line with dated customs to = exclude women. In this context the speaking ""I am...."' is under = patriarchy, not considered the speaking female, it is always = the"speaking male and this gets termed culturally acceptable practise, = but it is not. If we move form the ""ubuntu" premise, we begin to see that the = marginalisation and subjugation of women is against the principle said = to ground our culture. If we accept, and perhaps this is one aspect in = our "evolution - culturally" that we left behind, the acceptance that = the speaking "I am..." is both male and female, then within culture we = begin to see that some of the things that get justified as culture are = in fact not cultural, but are patriarchal practices dressed as culture. The king says he will not turn away from his cultural practices no = matter what! Selectively so, he sticks to his cultural practices when it = suits him, because there are benefits for him. Which is another thing = about culture that is worth mentioning. More times than not the most = vocal voices on the adoption of culture are those that have a vested = interest in the practice at hand. An uncle who needs to "cleanse a = widow" will probably be the loudest about upholding culture, even though = they may be silent about other aspects of that same culture. My point = being that culture can be used to advance or secure people's positions.=20 As I sign off, I need to make it clear that I do not think that = culture is all bad. No in fact I appreciate the critical position that = particularly those in countries that were previously colonised are = grappling with. A project of recovery of that which we were before our = culture was tempered with, balanced against the reality of the now and = who we define ourselves as presently as well as the challenge of self = definition into the future of who we want to be. And we sit in a = challenging position. The true test for all of us though (me thinks) in = assessing what is acceptable as culture and what is not acceptable is = whether or not the precise in any way takes away from an individual (and = in turn the collective...community ...based on Ubuntu) ability to enjoy to its full extent the experience of being human. Until later=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: research=20 To: egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org=20 Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 9:47 AM Subject: [Egemtraining] This week's discussion topic: Lets Talk!!! Dear All I am sure most of you have been itching to receive the first = discussion topic and are ready to roll!!! I have been keenly waiting to = start as weel. Below is the discussion topic and the question at the end = of the piece. Please remember not to make your contribution too long. = Just comment as briefly as possible to give others a chance to also = share their opinions. Also remember to "reply to all" so that you do not = share your opinion just with me but with all in the network. Happy = reading and looking forward to hearing your opinions!!! Where does culture start and stop, and individual rights begin? =20 I am sure most of us are aware of the controversial ongoing court = case in Swaziland between a mother (Lindiwe Dlamini) and the King (his = aides) concerning the abduction of an 18-year-old-child (Zena) Mahlangu = for "royal duties".=20 =20 For those who have not been following the case, the King (who is = being sued through his aides, is alleged to have abducted the child from = school without her mother's knowledge and consent. Lindiwe wants her = child to be returned to her custody and the King has been arguing that = the child is being kept at the Royal Guest House to be prepared to be = the King's 10th wife. The King was quoted as saying at a press = conference, "The whole issue has been blown out of proportion by those = who took advantage of trying to destroy our customs and traditions". = People may say whatever they want to sy but I vow to stick to our = traditions, no matter what the times are. I can be blamed left and = right, but the fact of the matter is that it is our culture that I = should marry many wives as I can. I cannot allow myself to be forced to = follow Western culture". =20 =20 The controversy is generally seen as a "clash between customs and = modernity". According to custom, Mswati may choose a new wife each year = from among the thousands of virgins who attend the annual reed dance". = Ironically Mswati last year revived a traditional ban on sex with = underage girls to combat HIV/AIDS.=20 =20 After protests for the abduction of Zena and two other girls, the = King fined himself a cow for breaking his own royal decree. (BBC News). = He was also quoted as saying that he was prepared to pay cows as fines = for selecting the three girls.=20 =20 Zena's mother is challenging the alleged traditional grabbing of her = daughter on the grounds that she was not consulted, did not consent and = her child has been taken out of school and therefore was abducted. The = King's courtiers (aides) have been arguing that the girl was not = abducted but went willingly. "Everything was arranged between the King = and the girl and our job was just to pick her at the agreed spot. No = force was applied". =20 Human rights activists have been arguing that "traditionalists = should stop "raping" girls in the name of culture, while royals have = been insisting that Mswati's selection of Zena to be his bride is a = traditional issue that must be resolved through Swazi customs and = culture. =20 =20 Gender and human rights activists have noted that Zena is a minor = child (18 years) and the abduction is a criminal offence in that it = violates=20 1) Lindiwe Dlamini's rights to custody and guardianship over her = minor child and also that; 2) Zena's rights to liberty, freedom of movement, education, choice = of marriage partner, right to be a child and bodily integrity. =20 Most of us are, I am sure, aware that Swaziland is signatory to the = SADC Declaration on Gender and Development which commits it in article = (vii) to, among other things, protecting the human rights of women and = children, which raises a number of concerns regarding this case.=20 =20 Question for Discussion =20 =20 1) Where should culture, custom and tradition stop and = individual human rights begin, to ensure the enjoyment of these rights = especially by women? Here women are singled out because most negative = cultural practices tend to disadvantage them more than men, since in = patriarchal societies men are the ones who define culture? Lets Talk!!! Alice Kwaramba Senior Researcher Gender Links 1 Ernest Oppenheimer Street Lower Ground Floor Lakeside Place Bruma, 2198 Johannesburg South Africa Tel: +27 11 622 2877/7796 Fax: +27 11 622 4732 Email: alice@genderlinks.org.za research@genderlinks.org.za URL: www.genderlinks.org.za ------=_NextPart_000_013F_01C28F14.35D3DC30 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
hie all
thanks for this Lindi.
 
I think Lindiwe has raised a number of = interesting=20 points which we may want to make a follow up on. One which I find quite=20 pertinent is the whole concept of ubuntu and who in = patriarchal=20 societies constitutes "us". The Swazi King talks on the need for the = whole world=20 to understand who and how "us/we" as Swati people operate, as = defined by=20 "our" culture. This is a very interesting definition of "us" in a = society=20 where women are legally regarded as minors, and in my own = interpretation,=20 therefore as part of the "other". Are Swazi women and children part of = "us" in=20 the ubuntu concept in Swaziland, or they are the "other" = becuase of=20 the gender dynamics that define "them" and "us" in Swaziland? What do = others=20 think? Lets talk!!! 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 lindiwe nkutha
To: research ; egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.o= rg=20
Sent: Sunday, November 17, 2002 = 12:43=20 PM
Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] = Clash between=20 customs and Modernity

Hi to all
 
Its an interesting topic isn't it'? = the=20 convergence of human rights and custom/ culture etc. Ideally these = should not=20 be mutually exclusive, me thinks. I think also that in = particular,=20 southern African customs that espouse or purport to espouse the = principle=20 of Ubuntu should not at all have a problem with human rights. = (but=20 then again there are a lot of things I think that are not = necessarily=20 fact). My rationale is if the foundation of the concept of=20 ubuntu  which is said to recognise (albeit=20 philosophically) that "I am because you are" is our point of = departure=20 then who I am is intrinsically linked to who you are. If you are free, = so am I=20 free, if you are oppressed, so am I oppressed, and so on and so on.=20
 
But  because society loves an = "other", and=20 patriarchy  has worked wonders in "securing women's positions as = others",=20 patriarchy in a heavy disguise as culture has always been used as the = banner=20 under which abuses of human rights are perpetuated. So that the = lines=20 were blurred and everytime we said  "I am because you = are"=20 and we were speaking as men, it almost felt natural, cultural, in line = with=20 dated customs to exclude women. In this context the speaking ""I = am...."'=20 is under patriarchy, not considered the speaking female, it is always=20 the"speaking male and this gets termed  culturally acceptable = practise,=20 but it is not.
 
If we move form the ""ubuntu" = premise, we begin=20 to see that the marginalisation  and subjugation of women is = against=20 the principle said to ground our culture. If we accept, and = perhaps this=20 is one aspect in our "evolution - culturally" that we left = behind, the=20 acceptance that the speaking "I am..." is both male and female, then = within=20 culture we begin to see that some of the things that get justified as = culture=20 are in fact not cultural, but are patriarchal practices dressed as=20 culture.
 
The king says he will not turn = away from his=20 cultural practices no matter what! Selectively so, he sticks to = his=20 cultural practices when it suits him, because there are benefits for = him.=20 Which is another thing about culture that is worth mentioning. More = times than=20 not the most vocal voices on the adoption of culture are those that = have a=20 vested interest in the practice at hand. An uncle who needs to = "cleanse a=20 widow" will probably be the loudest about upholding culture, even = though they=20 may be silent about other aspects of that same culture. My point being = that=20 culture can be used to advance or secure people's positions. =
 
As I sign off, I need to make it = clear that=20 I do not think that culture is all bad. No in fact I appreciate the = critical=20 position that particularly those in countries that were previously = colonised=20 are grappling with. A project of recovery of that which we were before = our=20 culture was tempered with, balanced against the reality of the now and = who we=20 define ourselves as presently as well as the challenge of self = definition into=20 the future of who we want to be.  And we sit in a challenging = position.=20 The true test for all of us though (me thinks) in assessing what is = acceptable=20 as culture and what is not acceptable is whether or not the precise in = any way=20 takes away from an individual (and in turn the collective...community = ...based=20 on Ubuntu)
ability to enjoy to its full extent=20 the experience of being human.
 
Until later 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 research
To: egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.o= rg=20
Sent: Monday, November 18, = 2002 9:47=20 AM
Subject: [Egemtraining] This = week's=20 discussion topic: Lets Talk!!!

Dear All
 
I am sure most of you have been = itching to=20 receive the first discussion topic and are ready to roll!!! I have = been=20 keenly waiting to start as weel. Below is the discussion topic and = the=20 question at the end of the piece. Please remember not to make your=20 contribution too long. Just comment as briefly as possible to give = others a=20 chance to also share their opinions. Also remember to "reply to all" = so that=20 you do not share your opinion just with me but with all in the = network.=20 Happy reading and looking forward to hearing your = opinions!!!
 
 

Where does culture start and = stop, and=20 individual rights begin?

 

I am sure most of us are aware of = the=20 controversial ongoing court case in Swaziland between a mother = (Lindiwe=20 Dlamini) and the King (his aides) concerning the abduction of an=20 18-year-old-child (Zena) Mahlangu for =93royal duties=94. =

 

For those who have not been = following=20 the case, the King (who is being sued through his aides, is alleged = to have=20 abducted the child from school without her mother=92s knowledge and = consent.=20 Lindiwe wants her child to be returned to her custody and the King = has been=20 arguing that the child is being kept at the Royal Guest House to be = prepared=20 to be the King=92s 10th wife. The King was quoted as = saying at a=20 press conference, =93The whole issue has been blown out of = proportion by those=20 who took advantage of trying to destroy our customs and = traditions=94. People=20 may say whatever they want to sy but I vow to stick to our = traditions, no=20 matter what the times are. I can be blamed left and right, but the = fact of=20 the matter is that it is our culture that I should marry many wives = as I=20 can. I cannot allow myself to be forced to follow Western = culture=94. 

 

The controversy is generally seen = as a =93clash=20 between customs and modernity=94. According to custom, Mswati may = choose a new=20 wife each year from among the thousands of virgins who attend the = annual=20 reed dance=94. Ironically Mswati last year revived a traditional ban = on sex=20 with underage girls to combat HIV/AIDS.

 

After protests for the abduction = of Zena and=20 two other girls, the King fined himself a cow for breaking his own = royal=20 decree. (BBC News). He was also quoted as saying that he was = prepared to pay=20 cows as fines for selecting the three girls.

 

Zena=92s mother is challenging the = alleged=20 traditional grabbing of her daughter on the grounds that she was not = consulted, did not consent and her child has been taken out of = school and=20 therefore was abducted. The King=92s courtiers (aides) have been = arguing that=20 the girl was not abducted but went willingly. =93Everything was = arranged=20 between the King and the girl and our job was just to pick her at = the agreed=20 spot. No force was applied=94.

 

Human rights activists have = been arguing=20 that =93traditionalists should stop =93raping=94 girls in the name = of culture,=20 while royals have been insisting that Mswati=92s selection of Zena = to be his=20 bride is a traditional issue that must be resolved through Swazi = customs and=20 culture.  =

 

Gender and human rights activists = have noted=20 that Zena is a minor child (18 years) and the abduction is a = criminal=20 offence in that it violates

1) Lindiwe Dlamini=92s rights to = custody and=20 guardianship over her minor child and also that;

2) Zena=92s rights to liberty, = freedom of=20 movement, education, choice of marriage partner, right to be a child = and=20 bodily integrity.

 

Most of us are, I am sure, aware = that=20 Swaziland is signatory to the SADC Declaration on Gender and = Development=20 which commits it in article (vii) to, among other things, = protecting the=20 human rights of women and children, which raises a number of = concerns=20 regarding this case.

 

Question for Discussion  

 

1)      = Where should culture, custom and tradition = stop and=20 individual human rights begin, to ensure the enjoyment of these = rights=20 especially by women? Here women are singled out because most = negative=20 cultural practices tend to disadvantage them more than men, since in = patriarchal societies men are the ones who define = culture?

 

 

 Lets = Talk!!!

 
 
 
 
Alice Kwaramba
Senior = Researcher
Gender=20 Links
1 Ernest Oppenheimer Street
Lower Ground = Floor
Lakeside=20 Place
Bruma, 2198
Johannesburg
South Africa
Tel: +27 11 = 622=20 2877/7796
Fax: +27 11 622 4732
Email: alice@genderlinks.org.za
=          =20 research@genderlinks.org.za
URL:=20 www.genderlinks.org.za<= /DIV>
------=_NextPart_000_013F_01C28F14.35D3DC30-- From bmachumu@yahoo.com Mon Nov 18 16:02:25 2002 From: bmachumu@yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?bakari=20machumu?=) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 16:02:25 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity In-Reply-To: <00c001c28e26$311b7660$0f00a8c0@MOTH> Message-ID: <20021118160225.65103.qmail@web40911.mail.yahoo.com> Hi to all, This is kind of a tricky situation where one get confused on a situation like a chick and egg, what comes first. Can't demacate clearly that, from this point on, human rights begins. I think if we are to go on with this culture, custom and tradition thing, then it should be under equal applications for both Men and Women. But do women as women know their right in Swaziland, i mean with the exception of Lindiwe Dlaminimost Swazi women, (its my guess i stand to be corrected) agrees with the culture, customs tradition thing todate. I mean, i can't imagine them continuing parading with their upper bodies and most of the under part in such neckedness, that by itself keeps their minds in it.To me that, consititutes negative cultural practices Now, to solve this thing, i believe on agressive, consistent awareness creation.How? that is the question Bakari Dar es Salaam --- lindiwe nkutha wrote: > Hi to all > > Its an interesting topic isn't it'? the convergence > of human rights and custom/ culture etc. Ideally > these should not be mutually exclusive, me thinks. I > think also that in particular, southern African > customs that espouse or purport to espouse the > principle of Ubuntu should not at all have a problem > with human rights. (but then again there are a lot > of things I think that are not necessarily fact). My > rationale is if the foundation of the concept of > ubuntu which is said to recognise (albeit > philosophically) that "I am because you are" is our > point of departure then who I am is intrinsically > linked to who you are. If you are free, so am I > free, if you are oppressed, so am I oppressed, and > so on and so on. > > But because society loves an "other", and > patriarchy has worked wonders in "securing women's > positions as others", patriarchy in a heavy disguise > as culture has always been used as the banner under > which abuses of human rights are perpetuated. So > that the lines were blurred and everytime we said > "I am because you are" and we were speaking as men, > it almost felt natural, cultural, in line with dated > customs to exclude women. In this context the > speaking ""I am...."' is under patriarchy, not > considered the speaking female, it is always > the"speaking male and this gets termed culturally > acceptable practise, but it is not. > > If we move form the ""ubuntu" premise, we begin to > see that the marginalisation and subjugation of > women is against the principle said to ground our > culture. If we accept, and perhaps this is one > aspect in our "evolution - culturally" that we left > behind, the acceptance that the speaking "I am..." > is both male and female, then within culture we > begin to see that some of the things that get > justified as culture are in fact not cultural, but > are patriarchal practices dressed as culture. > > The king says he will not turn away from his > cultural practices no matter what! Selectively so, > he sticks to his cultural practices when it suits > him, because there are benefits for him. Which is > another thing about culture that is worth > mentioning. More times than not the most vocal > voices on the adoption of culture are those that > have a vested interest in the practice at hand. An > uncle who needs to "cleanse a widow" will probably > be the loudest about upholding culture, even though > they may be silent about other aspects of that same > culture. My point being that culture can be used to > advance or secure people's positions. > > As I sign off, I need to make it clear that I do not > think that culture is all bad. No in fact I > appreciate the critical position that particularly > those in countries that were previously colonised > are grappling with. A project of recovery of that > which we were before our culture was tempered with, > balanced against the reality of the now and who we > define ourselves as presently as well as the > challenge of self definition into the future of who > we want to be. And we sit in a challenging > position. The true test for all of us though (me > thinks) in assessing what is acceptable as culture > and what is not acceptable is whether or not the > precise in any way takes away from an individual > (and in turn the collective...community ...based on > Ubuntu) > ability to enjoy to its full extent the experience > of being human. > > Until later > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: research > To: egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 9:47 AM > Subject: [Egemtraining] This week's discussion > topic: Lets Talk!!! > > > Dear All > > I am sure most of you have been itching to receive > the first discussion topic and are ready to roll!!! > I have been keenly waiting to start as weel. Below > is the discussion topic and the question at the end > of the piece. Please remember not to make your > contribution too long. Just comment as briefly as > possible to give others a chance to also share their > opinions. Also remember to "reply to all" so that > you do not share your opinion just with me but with > all in the network. Happy reading and looking > forward to hearing your opinions!!! > > > Where does culture start and stop, and individual > rights begin? > > > > I am sure most of us are aware of the > controversial ongoing court case in Swaziland > between a mother (Lindiwe Dlamini) and the King (his > aides) concerning the abduction of an > 18-year-old-child (Zena) Mahlangu for "royal > duties". > > > > For those who have not been following the case, > the King (who is being sued through his aides, is > alleged to have abducted the child from school > without her mother's knowledge and consent. Lindiwe > wants her child to be returned to her custody and > the King has been arguing that the child is being > kept at the Royal Guest House to be prepared to be > the King's 10th wife. The King was quoted as saying > at a press conference, "The whole issue has been > blown out of proportion by those who took advantage > of trying to destroy our customs and traditions". > People may say whatever they want to sy but I vow to > stick to our traditions, no matter what the times > are. I can be blamed left and right, but the fact of > the matter is that it is our culture that I should > marry many wives as I can. I cannot allow myself to > be forced to follow Western culture". > > > > The controversy is generally seen as a "clash > between customs and modernity". According to custom, > Mswati may choose a new wife each year from among > the thousands of virgins who attend the annual reed > dance". Ironically Mswati last year revived a > traditional ban on sex with underage girls to combat > HIV/AIDS. > > > > After protests for the abduction of Zena and two > other girls, the King fined himself a cow for > breaking his own royal decree. (BBC News). He was > also quoted as saying that he was prepared to pay > cows as fines for selecting the three girls. > > > > Zena's mother is challenging the alleged > traditional grabbing of her daughter on the grounds > that she was not consulted, did not consent and her > child has been taken out of school and therefore was > abducted. The King's courtiers (aides) have been > arguing that the girl was not abducted but went > willingly. "Everything was arranged between the King > and the girl and our job was just to pick her at the > agreed spot. No force was applied". > > > > Human rights activists have been arguing that > "traditionalists should stop "raping" girls in the > name of culture, while royals have been insisting > that Mswati's selection of Zena to be his bride is a > traditional issue that must be resolved through > Swazi customs and culture. > > > > Gender and human rights activists have noted that > Zena is a minor child (18 years) and the abduction > is a criminal offence in that it violates > > 1) Lindiwe Dlamini's rights to custody and > guardianship over her minor child and also that; > > 2) Zena's rights to liberty, freedom of movement, > education, choice of marriage partner, right to be a > child and bodily integrity. > > > > Most of us are, I am sure, aware that Swaziland is > signatory to the SADC Declaration on Gender and > Development which commits it in article (vii) to, > among other things, protecting the human rights of > women and children, which raises a number of > concerns regarding this case. > > > > Question for Discussion > > > 1) Where should culture, custom and tradition > stop and individual human rights begin, to ensure > the === message truncated === __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Everything you'll ever need on one web page from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts http://uk.my.yahoo.com From dailynews20@dailynews.co.zw Mon Nov 18 15:31:24 2002 From: dailynews20@dailynews.co.zw (Columbus S. Mavhunga) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 17:31:24 +0200 Subject: [Egemtraining] hear, hear Message-ID: <200211182010.WAA13746@dailynews.co.zw> > THIS MESSAGE IS IN MIME FORMAT. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --MS_Mac_OE_3120485484_187966_MIME_Part Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Folks, I must confess that my submissions are going to be 'affected' by what Lindiwe said. She brought very relevant points which will be my starting points and I will just try to reinforce them and add anything if she has anything that she left out. ----------- ----------- ----------- ----------- ----------- ------------ ------- ----- ----- As Lindi was signing off she said: "Culture can be used to advance or secure people's positions... I need to make it clear that I do not think that culture is all bad." I think African culture is one thing I have ever liked - debatable of course this is. It was 'invented' to make life nice for every African - from the king to the poorest person like me - be it a male or a female. Kings were meant to make sure that the customs were adhered to hence there was an indaba (royal court) where those who would have breached the cultural norms would be tried. But in the case of Swazi king - if at all he still deserves the title king - we are dealing without someone who is trying to manipulate a system. Culturally, Kings were meant to protect the vulnerable, but in the case of Mswati he has decided to feed on the prey. Do I hear someone say a who will protect the flock from preditors when the shephered starts pounding on his flock unjustifiably? In a real African culture there is no 'marriage' that would take place between a bride and a bridegroom without the consent of the bride's family. The marriage, in fact, needs the blessings of both in-laws. I am surprised that Mswati he abducted Zena without the consent of her mother (Lindiwe Dlamini). What makes it worse is that Zena is just 18 years old. I stand to be corrected if African culture did not respect the rights of a minor. If Mswati was to stand by his "African culture' what then is he going to do when it comes to the wedding ceremony. (I cannot recall the traditional name.) It has to involve both in-laws, doesn't it? There is noone who would want to 'destroy our customs and traditions' as Mswati claims. But he must use his greedness in the name of culture otherwise we we would sought the help of the West and human right activists to destroy it. Mswati even boasts further: "I can be blamed left and right, but the fact of the matter is that it is our culture that I should marry many wives as I can. I cannot allow myself to be forced to follow Western culture." Granted, let him marry as many wives as he likes, but he must not rape as many wives as he likes in the guise of culture, in his day and age of the AIDS/HIV pandemic. Let me stress that there no 'clash between customs and modernity' as some people would want to put it. It is simply a clash between a babarian and a civilised society. I wonder if there would be anyone around who would witness the day Mswati regains his conscience and be asked what happens if he was in the shoes of Mama Dlamini. He would blink hundred times and keep quiet. I am outta here, coil. a --MS_Mac_OE_3120485484_187966_MIME_Part Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable hear, hear Folks, I must confess that my submissions are going to be 'affected' by wha= t Lindiwe said. She brought very relevant points which will be my starting p= oints and I will just try to reinforce them and add anything if she has anyt= hing that she left out.
-----------      -----------   ---------= -- -----------      -----------    &= nbsp;------------     -------  ----- -----
As Lindi was signing off she said: "Culture can be used to advance or = secure people's positions... I need to make it clear that I do not think tha= t culture is all bad."
I think African culture is one thing I have ever liked - debatable of cours= e this is. It was 'invented' to make life nice for every African - from the = king to the poorest person like me - be it a male or a female.
Kings were meant to make sure that the customs were adhered to hence there = was an indaba (royal court) where those who would have breache= d the cultural norms would be tried.
But in the case of Swazi king - if at all he still deserves the title king = - we are dealing without someone who is trying to manipulate a system. Cultu= rally, Kings were meant to protect the vulnerable, but in the case of Mswati= he has decided to feed on the prey. Do I hear someone say a who will protec= t the flock from preditors when the shephered starts pounding on his flock u= njustifiably?
In a real African culture there is no 'marriage' that would take place betw= een a bride and a bridegroom without the consent of the bride's family. The = marriage, in fact, needs the blessings of both in-laws. I am surprised that = Mswati he abducted Zena without the consent of her mother (Lindiwe Dlamini).=  What makes it worse is that Zena is just 18 years old.
I stand to be corrected if African culture did not respect the rights of a = minor.
If Mswati was to stand by his "African culture' what then is he going = to do when it comes to the wedding ceremony. (I cannot recall the traditiona= l name.) It has to involve both in-laws, doesn't it?
There is noone who would want to  'destroy our customs and traditions'= as Mswati claims. But he must use his greedness in the name of culture othe= rwise we we would sought the help of the West and human right activists to d= estroy it.
Mswati even boasts further: "I can be blamed left and right, but the f= act of the matter is that it is our culture that I should marry many wives a= s I can. I cannot allow myself to be forced to follow Western culture."=  
Granted, let him marry as many wives as he likes, but he must not rape as m= any wives as he likes in the guise of culture, in his day and age of the AID= S/HIV pandemic.
Let me stress that there no 'clash between customs and modernity' as some p= eople would want to put it. It is simply a clash between a babarian and a ci= vilised society.
 I wonder if there would be anyone around who would witness the day Ms= wati regains his conscience and be asked what happens if he was in the shoes= of Mama Dlamini. He would blink hundred times and keep quiet.

I am outta here,

coil.


 a
--MS_Mac_OE_3120485484_187966_MIME_Part-- From mmcdonough@irex.org Mon Nov 18 22:41:58 2002 From: mmcdonough@irex.org (Maggie McDonough) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 17:41:58 -0500 Subject: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity Message-ID: <51E0CF9C2CF499478C33F3D4FFD3763097BEBF@exchange.irex.org> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C28F53.B44DA480 Content-Type: text/plain Hello to all, I also express my thanks to Lindiwe for the thoughtful remarks to start us off. I will start off with my thoughts on the question that was originally posed - I think that when there is a clash between tradition/culture and individual rights, that individual rights should be preferenced. In other words, I believe that one's right to practice culture ends when it impacts another's right to their liberties. But with that said, I think that it can also be a very difficult task to define what genuinely constitutes tradition or a cultural practice since I think it can so often be disorted by the beneficiary of such practice. I mean, should practices of religion or tradition that are manipulated to ensure patriarchal control of the family/society/state be insulated from change on the grounds that it is "culture"? As Lindiwe rightfully pointed out in her comments, there are many examples where culture is invoked only when it is useful, and I think that in the case we must differentiate between "reason" and "excuse". I am also a self-admitted social Darwinist - I have to say that I think there are some cultural practices that SHOULD be eradicated. And frankly, when it comes to promoting gender equality, if one of the side-effects of achieving this goal is some sort of cultural compromise, then I can live with it. This is not to say, however, that there is no balance to be had in weighing individual rights and cultural practices. In my opinion both of these things have to be balanced, and when this principle is converted from a philosophical point to real life, there are of course serious complexities that arise. I suppose my main point is that in cases when the different principles conflict, in my opinion the conflict should be resolved by the application of the basic human rights principles of nondiscrimination, non-oppression, and fairness. As a side note, there are a couple of interesting case studies in my region of focus (Russia and Central Asian) on successes of the women's movement in reconciling traditions and modernity, and the common trait in all the success stories is that the successes occured as a result of women being educated as a priority! That is all I have for now. Best regards, Maggie From: research [mailto:research@genderlinks.org.za] Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 8:07 AM To: lindiwe nkutha; egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity hie all thanks for this Lindi. I think Lindiwe has raised a number of interesting points which we may want to make a follow up on. One which I find quite pertinent is the whole concept of ubuntu and who in patriarchal societies constitutes "us". The Swazi King talks on the need for the whole world to understand who and how "us/we" as Swati people operate, as defined by "our" culture. This is a very interesting definition of "us" in a society where women are legally regarded as minors, and in my own interpretation, therefore as part of the "other". Are Swazi women and children part of "us" in the ubuntu concept in Swaziland, or they are the "other" becuase of the gender dynamics that define "them" and "us" in Swaziland? What do others think? Lets talk!!! ----- Original Message ----- From: lindiwe nkutha To: research ; egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org Sent: Sunday, November 17, 2002 12:43 PM Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity Hi to all Its an interesting topic isn't it'? the convergence of human rights and custom/ culture etc. Ideally these should not be mutually exclusive, me thinks. I think also that in particular, southern African customs that espouse or purport to espouse the principle of Ubuntu should not at all have a problem with human rights. (but then again there are a lot of things I think that are not necessarily fact). My rationale is if the foundation of the concept of ubuntu which is said to recognise (albeit philosophically) that "I am because you are" is our point of departure then who I am is intrinsically linked to who you are. If you are free, so am I free, if you are oppressed, so am I oppressed, and so on and so on. But because society loves an "other", and patriarchy has worked wonders in "securing women's positions as others", patriarchy in a heavy disguise as culture has always been used as the banner under which abuses of human rights are perpetuated. So that the lines were blurred and everytime we said "I am because you are" and we were speaking as men, it almost felt natural, cultural, in line with dated customs to exclude women. In this context the speaking ""I am...."' is under patriarchy, not considered the speaking female, it is always the"speaking male and this gets termed culturally acceptable practise, but it is not. If we move form the ""ubuntu" premise, we begin to see that the marginalisation and subjugation of women is against the principle said to ground our culture. If we accept, and perhaps this is one aspect in our "evolution - culturally" that we left behind, the acceptance that the speaking "I am..." is both male and female, then within culture we begin to see that some of the things that get justified as culture are in fact not cultural, but are patriarchal practices dressed as culture. The king says he will not turn away from his cultural practices no matter what! Selectively so, he sticks to his cultural practices when it suits him, because there are benefits for him. Which is another thing about culture that is worth mentioning. More times than not the most vocal voices on the adoption of culture are those that have a vested interest in the practice at hand. An uncle who needs to "cleanse a widow" will probably be the loudest about upholding culture, even though they may be silent about other aspects of that same culture. My point being that culture can be used to advance or secure people's positions. As I sign off, I need to make it clear that I do not think that culture is all bad. No in fact I appreciate the critical position that particularly those in countries that were previously colonised are grappling with. A project of recovery of that which we were before our culture was tempered with, balanced against the reality of the now and who we define ourselves as presently as well as the challenge of self definition into the future of who we want to be. And we sit in a challenging position. The true test for all of us though (me thinks) in assessing what is acceptable as culture and what is not acceptable is whether or not the precise in any way takes away from an individual (and in turn the collective...community ...based on Ubuntu) ability to enjoy to its full extent the experience of being human. Until later ----- Original Message ----- From: research To: egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 9:47 AM Subject: [Egemtraining] This week's discussion topic: Lets Talk!!! Dear All I am sure most of you have been itching to receive the first discussion topic and are ready to roll!!! I have been keenly waiting to start as weel. Below is the discussion topic and the question at the end of the piece. Please remember not to make your contribution too long. Just comment as briefly as possible to give others a chance to also share their opinions. Also remember to "reply to all" so that you do not share your opinion just with me but with all in the network. Happy reading and looking forward to hearing your opinions!!! Where does culture start and stop, and individual rights begin? I am sure most of us are aware of the controversial ongoing court case in Swaziland between a mother (Lindiwe Dlamini) and the King (his aides) concerning the abduction of an 18-year-old-child (Zena) Mahlangu for "royal duties". For those who have not been following the case, the King (who is being sued through his aides, is alleged to have abducted the child from school without her mother's knowledge and consent. Lindiwe wants her child to be returned to her custody and the King has been arguing that the child is being kept at the Royal Guest House to be prepared to be the King's 10th wife. The King was quoted as saying at a press conference, "The whole issue has been blown out of proportion by those who took advantage of trying to destroy our customs and traditions". People may say whatever they want to sy but I vow to stick to our traditions, no matter what the times are. I can be blamed left and right, but the fact of the matter is that it is our culture that I should marry many wives as I can. I cannot allow myself to be forced to follow Western culture". The controversy is generally seen as a "clash between customs and modernity". According to custom, Mswati may choose a new wife each year from among the thousands of virgins who attend the annual reed dance". Ironically Mswati last year revived a traditional ban on sex with underage girls to combat HIV/AIDS. After protests for the abduction of Zena and two other girls, the King fined himself a cow for breaking his own royal decree. (BBC News). He was also quoted as saying that he was prepared to pay cows as fines for selecting the three girls. Zena's mother is challenging the alleged traditional grabbing of her daughter on the grounds that she was not consulted, did not consent and her child has been taken out of school and therefore was abducted. The King's courtiers (aides) have been arguing that the girl was not abducted but went willingly. "Everything was arranged between the King and the girl and our job was just to pick her at the agreed spot. No force was applied". Human rights activists have been arguing that "traditionalists should stop "raping" girls in the name of culture, while royals have been insisting that Mswati's selection of Zena to be his bride is a traditional issue that must be resolved through Swazi customs and culture. Gender and human rights activists have noted that Zena is a minor child (18 years) and the abduction is a criminal offence in that it violates 1) Lindiwe Dlamini's rights to custody and guardianship over her minor child and also that; 2) Zena's rights to liberty, freedom of movement, education, choice of marriage partner, right to be a child and bodily integrity. Most of us are, I am sure, aware that Swaziland is signatory to the SADC Declaration on Gender and Development which commits it in article (vii) to, among other things, protecting the human rights of women and children, which raises a number of concerns regarding this case. Question for Discussion 1) Where should culture, custom and tradition stop and individual human rights begin, to ensure the enjoyment of these rights especially by women? Here women are singled out because most negative cultural practices tend to disadvantage them more than men, since in patriarchal societies men are the ones who define culture? Lets Talk!!! Alice Kwaramba Senior Researcher Gender Links 1 Ernest Oppenheimer Street Lower Ground Floor Lakeside Place Bruma, 2198 Johannesburg South Africa Tel: +27 11 622 2877/7796 Fax: +27 11 622 4732 Email: alice@genderlinks.org.za research@genderlinks.org.za URL: www.genderlinks.org.za ------_=_NextPart_001_01C28F53.B44DA480 Content-Type: text/html Message
Hello to all,
 
I also express my thanks to Lindiwe for the thoughtful remarks to start us off.
 
I will start off with my thoughts on the question that was originally posed -  I think that when there is a clash between tradition/culture and individual rights, that individual rights should be preferenced.  In other words,  I believe that one's right to practice culture ends when it impacts another's right to their liberties.   But with that said, I think that it can also be a very difficult task to define what genuinely constitutes tradition or a cultural practice since I think it can so often be disorted by the beneficiary of such practice.  I mean, should practices of religion or tradition that are manipulated to ensure patriarchal control of the family/society/state be insulated from change on the grounds that it is "culture"?  As Lindiwe rightfully pointed out in her comments, there are many examples where culture is invoked only when it is useful, and I think that in the case we must differentiate between "reason" and "excuse".  I am also a self-admitted social Darwinist - I have to say that I think there are some cultural practices that SHOULD be eradicated.  And frankly, when it comes to promoting gender equality, if one of the side-effects of achieving this goal is some sort of cultural compromise, then I can live with it.
 
This is not to say, however,  that there is no balance to be had in weighing individual rights and cultural practices.  In my opinion both of these things have to be balanced, and when this principle is converted from a philosophical point to real life, there are of course serious complexities that arise.  I suppose my main point is that in cases when the different principles conflict, in my opinion the conflict should be resolved by the application of the basic human rights principles of nondiscrimination, non-oppression, and fairness.
 
As a side note, there are a couple of interesting case studies in my region of focus (Russia and Central Asian) on successes of the women's movement in reconciling traditions and modernity, and the common trait in all the success stories is that the successes occured as a result of women being educated as a priority!
 
That is all I have for now. 
 
Best regards,
 
Maggie
  
From: research [mailto:research@genderlinks.org.za]
Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 8:07 AM
To: lindiwe nkutha; egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org
Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity

hie all
thanks for this Lindi.
 
I think Lindiwe has raised a number of interesting points which we may want to make a follow up on. One which I find quite pertinent is the whole concept of ubuntu and who in patriarchal societies constitutes "us". The Swazi King talks on the need for the whole world to understand who and how "us/we" as Swati people operate, as defined by "our" culture. This is a very interesting definition of "us" in a society where women are legally regarded as minors, and in my own interpretation, therefore as part of the "other". Are Swazi women and children part of "us" in the ubuntu concept in Swaziland, or they are the "other" becuase of the gender dynamics that define "them" and "us" in Swaziland? What do others think? Lets talk!!! 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, November 17, 2002 12:43 PM
Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity

Hi to all
 
Its an interesting topic isn't it'? the convergence of human rights and custom/ culture etc. Ideally these should not be mutually exclusive, me thinks. I think also that in particular, southern African customs that espouse or purport to espouse the principle of Ubuntu should not at all have a problem with human rights. (but then again there are a lot of things I think that are not necessarily fact). My rationale is if the foundation of the concept of ubuntu  which is said to recognise (albeit philosophically) that "I am because you are" is our point of departure then who I am is intrinsically linked to who you are. If you are free, so am I free, if you are oppressed, so am I oppressed, and so on and so on.
 
But  because society loves an "other", and patriarchy  has worked wonders in "securing women's positions as others", patriarchy in a heavy disguise as culture has always been used as the banner under which abuses of human rights are perpetuated. So that the lines were blurred and everytime we said  "I am because you are" and we were speaking as men, it almost felt natural, cultural, in line with dated customs to exclude women. In this context the speaking ""I am...."' is under patriarchy, not considered the speaking female, it is always the"speaking male and this gets termed  culturally acceptable practise, but it is not.
 
If we move form the ""ubuntu" premise, we begin to see that the marginalisation  and subjugation of women is against the principle said to ground our culture. If we accept, and perhaps this is one aspect in our "evolution - culturally" that we left behind, the acceptance that the speaking "I am..." is both male and female, then within culture we begin to see that some of the things that get justified as culture are in fact not cultural, but are patriarchal practices dressed as culture.
 
The king says he will not turn away from his cultural practices no matter what! Selectively so, he sticks to his cultural practices when it suits him, because there are benefits for him. Which is another thing about culture that is worth mentioning. More times than not the most vocal voices on the adoption of culture are those that have a vested interest in the practice at hand. An uncle who needs to "cleanse a widow" will probably be the loudest about upholding culture, even though they may be silent about other aspects of that same culture. My point being that culture can be used to advance or secure people's positions.
 
As I sign off, I need to make it clear that I do not think that culture is all bad. No in fact I appreciate the critical position that particularly those in countries that were previously colonised are grappling with. A project of recovery of that which we were before our culture was tempered with, balanced against the reality of the now and who we define ourselves as presently as well as the challenge of self definition into the future of who we want to be.  And we sit in a challenging position. The true test for all of us though (me thinks) in assessing what is acceptable as culture and what is not acceptable is whether or not the precise in any way takes away from an individual (and in turn the collective...community ...based on Ubuntu)
ability to enjoy to its full extent the experience of being human.
 
Until later 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: research
Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 9:47 AM
Subject: [Egemtraining] This week's discussion topic: Lets Talk!!!

Dear All
 
I am sure most of you have been itching to receive the first discussion topic and are ready to roll!!! I have been keenly waiting to start as weel. Below is the discussion topic and the question at the end of the piece. Please remember not to make your contribution too long. Just comment as briefly as possible to give others a chance to also share their opinions. Also remember to "reply to all" so that you do not share your opinion just with me but with all in the network. Happy reading and looking forward to hearing your opinions!!!
 
 

Where does culture start and stop, and individual rights begin?

 

I am sure most of us are aware of the controversial ongoing court case in Swaziland between a mother (Lindiwe Dlamini) and the King (his aides) concerning the abduction of an 18-year-old-child (Zena) Mahlangu for "royal duties".

 

For those who have not been following the case, the King (who is being sued through his aides, is alleged to have abducted the child from school without her mother's knowledge and consent. Lindiwe wants her child to be returned to her custody and the King has been arguing that the child is being kept at the Royal Guest House to be prepared to be the King's 10th wife. The King was quoted as saying at a press conference, "The whole issue has been blown out of proportion by those who took advantage of trying to destroy our customs and traditions". People may say whatever they want to sy but I vow to stick to our traditions, no matter what the times are. I can be blamed left and right, but the fact of the matter is that it is our culture that I should marry many wives as I can. I cannot allow myself to be forced to follow Western culture". 

 

The controversy is generally seen as a "clash between customs and modernity". According to custom, Mswati may choose a new wife each year from among the thousands of virgins who attend the annual reed dance". Ironically Mswati last year revived a traditional ban on sex with underage girls to combat HIV/AIDS.

 

After protests for the abduction of Zena and two other girls, the King fined himself a cow for breaking his own royal decree. (BBC News). He was also quoted as saying that he was prepared to pay cows as fines for selecting the three girls.

 

Zena's mother is challenging the alleged traditional grabbing of her daughter on the grounds that she was not consulted, did not consent and her child has been taken out of school and therefore was abducted. The King's courtiers (aides) have been arguing that the girl was not abducted but went willingly. "Everything was arranged between the King and the girl and our job was just to pick her at the agreed spot. No force was applied".

 

Human rights activists have been arguing that "traditionalists should stop "raping" girls in the name of culture, while royals have been insisting that Mswati's selection of Zena to be his bride is a traditional issue that must be resolved through Swazi customs and culture. 

 

Gender and human rights activists have noted that Zena is a minor child (18 years) and the abduction is a criminal offence in that it violates

1) Lindiwe Dlamini's rights to custody and guardianship over her minor child and also that;

2) Zena's rights to liberty, freedom of movement, education, choice of marriage partner, right to be a child and bodily integrity.

 

Most of us are, I am sure, aware that Swaziland is signatory to the SADC Declaration on Gender and Development which commits it in article (vii) to, among other things, protecting the human rights of women and children, which raises a number of concerns regarding this case.

 

Question for Discussion  

 

1)      Where should culture, custom and tradition stop and individual human rights begin, to ensure the enjoyment of these rights especially by women? Here women are singled out because most negative cultural practices tend to disadvantage them more than men, since in patriarchal societies men are the ones who define culture?

 

 

 Lets Talk!!!

 
 
 
 
Alice Kwaramba
Senior Researcher
Gender Links
1 Ernest Oppenheimer Street
Lower Ground Floor
Lakeside Place
Bruma, 2198
Johannesburg
South Africa
Tel: +27 11 622 2877/7796
Fax: +27 11 622 4732
Email: alice@genderlinks.org.za
          research@genderlinks.org.za
URL: www.genderlinks.org.za
------_=_NextPart_001_01C28F53.B44DA480-- From research@genderlinks.org.za Tue Nov 19 07:14:59 2002 From: research@genderlinks.org.za (research) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 09:14:59 +0200 Subject: Fw: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity Message-ID: <005e01c28f9b$5f486cc0$0e00a8c0@ALICEK> Dear All Thanks for this contribution. Just remember to "reply to all" so that I do not have to forward it to others! ----- Original Message ----- From: "ndzundzu" <120409@uniswacc.uniswa.sz> To: "research" Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 6:17 PM Subject: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > Okay, seems like there are lots of Lindiwe's in this issue so I wonder how > we'll actually go about this (ha, ha, ha!). Any's I don't know, but for some > reason I knew this issue would come up. Well as a pure Swazi, I have > been exposed to all sorts of culture traits for as long as I can remember > and this has somehow worked out well. But with the era that we are living > in now, I guess some cultures need to be modified. > Here is an extract from an article that appeared in The Times of Swaziland > "What the Zena SAGA taught us": > "A third lesson is that clearly we as a nation are failing to recognise the > fundamental value of the women in our society through statutory law. > Perhaps the new constitution will address this matter when a draft appears > some time in 2003." > So, I guess this almost sums it all up especially where the issue of rights is > concerned. All this is hopefully going to come out in the upcoming > constitution. > From lindiwe nkutha" Message-ID: <005501c28ee0$c72b7e10$0f00a8c0@MOTH> Hi again Interestingly as we talk about culture we begin to challaenge our own beliefs on what constitutes culture as well as how we understand the workings of it. Critical to this realisation is our understanding and appreciation of how culture is passed on from generation to generation, entrenching positions of indivduals and setting precedents that future genarations will follow often times unquestioned. Bakari raises properly the predicament of chicken and egg where culture is concerned, and so we ask, in the formation of society and the negotiation of indivual identities which takes more precedent, the indivual make up of members of communities or the culture into which they are born? And this is the real quanandram! If we agree that culture exists for amongst other reasons as a tempalte on which our own indivual identities are formed, we agree also that gender roles are difined in culture; the man as hunter, gatherer and aggressor and woman as surbesvient receipient of caring, nurtiring etc etc are entrenched also in culture (and not just African cultures, just about all cultures in fact). So that we base our understanding of the situation in Swaziland on this premise, and begin to realise that from generation to generation, women in Swaziland would gather for the reed dance, half naked or almost entirely completely naked as Bakari says, is no co-incidence, it is done because it is a practice that fore ancestors engaged in as part of their cultural expression ( to what end now, is what we have to grapple with) . As a by the way as on my way to my point, I need to say, Swazi people and in fact most cultures in Southern Africa did not wear anything much before we were introduced to a western way of dressing...part of our colonisation...essentially "nudity" was for us never a tabooo. The comment on nudity reflects how the western way of being have influenced how we see ourselves. Having said that and getting back on course to my point, I need to repeat what I said yesterday, which Columbus picked up on also, that "customs and culture can be used to further gains of individuals". The genesis of the reed dance a Swazi friend informs me, was for the Queen mother, never a parade for the king to choose his wives. It was for the queen mother to choose for herself maidens that would help her in her homestead . The "king" has now appropriated this tradition for himself and has turned it into a peep show for himself (re-entrenching women's positions as objects of gaze...for the titilation of his own self). Is it then the practice itself that is wrong or is the "reason" for its continuance that is oppressive? and this is the point of this discussion I mantain. Bakari says women in Swaziland ecxept for my namesake Dlamini agree with the culture and customs. This statement is not entirely wrong, because if they did not no woman would send their daughters to the reed dance, and as westernised as we have become mothers in Swaziland would ensure that if their daughters went they were fully clothed and so on and so on. But why do women continue to send their children? Because women are in most cases the custodians of culture, and if we all agree that culture in the wrong hands can be oppressive we begin to appreciate how women remaining oblivious to their oppression can serve the interests of those who seek to keep them oppressed. And right here is where I agree fully with Bakari, knowldge is power! Knowledge and information on the basis of which change can be negotiated both at an individual and community level has been witheld for far too long from women. Unless and until women conscientize one another or are conscientized to a different reality, such abuses as we see in Swaziland will continue. Because culture is not static, and is ever changing, what will begin to happen is that together, as women and men we will begin to build a new culture that defines aptly who we want to be. Unless that happens (not only in Swaziland) but the world over women will appear and in fact may just continue to collude in their own oppression. Oh dear I'm afraid I have gone on and on...apologies Alice for the lenght of this, but I guess what I was trying to say in a very round about way is (i) culture is not static and is capable of being changed by individuals (ii) women need to be empowred to begin to see the world differently so they contribute meaningfully to processses that shape their lives, including the shaping of culture. Until next time Lindiwe Nkutha ----- Original Message ----- From: "bakari machumu" To: "lindiwe nkutha" ; "research" ; Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 6:02 PM Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > Hi to all, > This is kind of a tricky situation where one get > confused on a situation like a chick and egg, what > comes first. Can't demacate clearly that, from this > point on, human rights begins. I think if we are to go > on with this culture, custom and tradition thing, then > it should be under equal applications for both Men and > Women. But do women as women know their right in > Swaziland, i mean with the exception of Lindiwe > Dlaminimost Swazi women, (its my guess i stand to be > corrected) agrees with the culture, customs tradition > thing todate. I mean, i can't imagine them continuing > parading with their upper bodies and most of the under > part in such neckedness, that by itself keeps their > minds in it.To me that, consititutes negative cultural > practices Now, to solve this thing, i believe on > agressive, consistent awareness creation.How? that is > the question > > Bakari > Dar es Salaam > > > > --- lindiwe nkutha wrote: > > Hi to all > > > > Its an interesting topic isn't it'? the convergence > > of human rights and custom/ culture etc. Ideally > > these should not be mutually exclusive, me thinks. I > > think also that in particular, southern African > > customs that espouse or purport to espouse the > > principle of Ubuntu should not at all have a problem > > with human rights. (but then again there are a lot > > of things I think that are not necessarily fact). My > > rationale is if the foundation of the concept of > > ubuntu which is said to recognise (albeit > > philosophically) that "I am because you are" is our > > point of departure then who I am is intrinsically > > linked to who you are. If you are free, so am I > > free, if you are oppressed, so am I oppressed, and > > so on and so on. > > > > But because society loves an "other", and > > patriarchy has worked wonders in "securing women's > > positions as others", patriarchy in a heavy disguise > > as culture has always been used as the banner under > > which abuses of human rights are perpetuated. So > > that the lines were blurred and everytime we said > > "I am because you are" and we were speaking as men, > > it almost felt natural, cultural, in line with dated > > customs to exclude women. In this context the > > speaking ""I am...."' is under patriarchy, not > > considered the speaking female, it is always > > the"speaking male and this gets termed culturally > > acceptable practise, but it is not. > > > > If we move form the ""ubuntu" premise, we begin to > > see that the marginalisation and subjugation of > > women is against the principle said to ground our > > culture. If we accept, and perhaps this is one > > aspect in our "evolution - culturally" that we left > > behind, the acceptance that the speaking "I am..." > > is both male and female, then within culture we > > begin to see that some of the things that get > > justified as culture are in fact not cultural, but > > are patriarchal practices dressed as culture. > > > > The king says he will not turn away from his > > cultural practices no matter what! Selectively so, > > he sticks to his cultural practices when it suits > > him, because there are benefits for him. Which is > > another thing about culture that is worth > > mentioning. More times than not the most vocal > > voices on the adoption of culture are those that > > have a vested interest in the practice at hand. An > > uncle who needs to "cleanse a widow" will probably > > be the loudest about upholding culture, even though > > they may be silent about other aspects of that same > > culture. My point being that culture can be used to > > advance or secure people's positions. > > > > As I sign off, I need to make it clear that I do not > > think that culture is all bad. No in fact I > > appreciate the critical position that particularly > > those in countries that were previously colonised > > are grappling with. A project of recovery of that > > which we were before our culture was tempered with, > > balanced against the reality of the now and who we > > define ourselves as presently as well as the > > challenge of self definition into the future of who > > we want to be. And we sit in a challenging > > position. The true test for all of us though (me > > thinks) in assessing what is acceptable as culture > > and what is not acceptable is whether or not the > > precise in any way takes away from an individual > > (and in turn the collective...community ...based on > > Ubuntu) > > ability to enjoy to its full extent the experience > > of being human. > > > > Until later > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: research > > To: egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > > Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 9:47 AM > > Subject: [Egemtraining] This week's discussion > > topic: Lets Talk!!! > > > > > > Dear All > > > > I am sure most of you have been itching to receive > > the first discussion topic and are ready to roll!!! > > I have been keenly waiting to start as weel. Below > > is the discussion topic and the question at the end > > of the piece. Please remember not to make your > > contribution too long. Just comment as briefly as > > possible to give others a chance to also share their > > opinions. Also remember to "reply to all" so that > > you do not share your opinion just with me but with > > all in the network. Happy reading and looking > > forward to hearing your opinions!!! > > > > > > Where does culture start and stop, and individual > > rights begin? > > > > > > > > I am sure most of us are aware of the > > controversial ongoing court case in Swaziland > > between a mother (Lindiwe Dlamini) and the King (his > > aides) concerning the abduction of an > > 18-year-old-child (Zena) Mahlangu for "royal > > duties". > > > > > > > > For those who have not been following the case, > > the King (who is being sued through his aides, is > > alleged to have abducted the child from school > > without her mother's knowledge and consent. Lindiwe > > wants her child to be returned to her custody and > > the King has been arguing that the child is being > > kept at the Royal Guest House to be prepared to be > > the King's 10th wife. The King was quoted as saying > > at a press conference, "The whole issue has been > > blown out of proportion by those who took advantage > > of trying to destroy our customs and traditions". > > People may say whatever they want to sy but I vow to > > stick to our traditions, no matter what the times > > are. I can be blamed left and right, but the fact of > > the matter is that it is our culture that I should > > marry many wives as I can. I cannot allow myself to > > be forced to follow Western culture". > > > > > > > > The controversy is generally seen as a "clash > > between customs and modernity". According to custom, > > Mswati may choose a new wife each year from among > > the thousands of virgins who attend the annual reed > > dance". Ironically Mswati last year revived a > > traditional ban on sex with underage girls to combat > > HIV/AIDS. > > > > > > > > After protests for the abduction of Zena and two > > other girls, the King fined himself a cow for > > breaking his own royal decree. (BBC News). He was > > also quoted as saying that he was prepared to pay > > cows as fines for selecting the three girls. > > > > > > > > Zena's mother is challenging the alleged > > traditional grabbing of her daughter on the grounds > > that she was not consulted, did not consent and her > > child has been taken out of school and therefore was > > abducted. The King's courtiers (aides) have been > > arguing that the girl was not abducted but went > > willingly. "Everything was arranged between the King > > and the girl and our job was just to pick her at the > > agreed spot. No force was applied". > > > > > > > > Human rights activists have been arguing that > > "traditionalists should stop "raping" girls in the > > name of culture, while royals have been insisting > > that Mswati's selection of Zena to be his bride is a > > traditional issue that must be resolved through > > Swazi customs and culture. > > > > > > > > Gender and human rights activists have noted that > > Zena is a minor child (18 years) and the abduction > > is a criminal offence in that it violates > > > > 1) Lindiwe Dlamini's rights to custody and > > guardianship over her minor child and also that; > > > > 2) Zena's rights to liberty, freedom of movement, > > education, choice of marriage partner, right to be a > > child and bodily integrity. > > > > > > > > Most of us are, I am sure, aware that Swaziland is > > signatory to the SADC Declaration on Gender and > > Development which commits it in article (vii) to, > > among other things, protecting the human rights of > > women and children, which raises a number of > > concerns regarding this case. > > > > > > > > Question for Discussion > > > > > > 1) Where should culture, custom and tradition > > stop and individual human rights begin, to ensure > > the > === message truncated === > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Everything you'll ever need on one web page > from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts > http://uk.my.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > Egemtraining mailing list > Egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > http://lists.sn.apc.org/mailman/listinfo/egemtraining > From Kudzaishe@mwengo.org.zw Tue Nov 19 11:59:23 2002 From: Kudzaishe@mwengo.org.zw (Kudzaishe) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 13:59:23 +0200 Subject: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity Message-ID: <30C1EF84C3B1D611AE8A008048D7AA3D02848F@SERVER> Hello everyone An interesting discussion to date which I have just joined. I agree that the world over the patriarchal system has been using culture as an excuse for women oppression. King Mswati just represents how far the rot, has gone in our world, whereby aspects of culture are still considered to override the modern day reality. The King obviously in spite of going to the extent of banning sex for girls, does not seem to realise that polygamous unions can be a fertile ground for the spread of HIV/ AIDS. We should also be considering Zena's freedom of choice in being able to choose a husband who she loves. Instead the tradition seems to be entrenching a system whereby a young girl, "catch them young" is coerced into going into a union where she can potentially be dazed by the grandeur and splendor of the royal riches. It is not really useful at this point to argue for the return of Zena without us examining the root causes of what has happened to her. It is the culture which has been entrenched for generations upon generations whereby women have only been considered to be possessions which exist for the good of the men. It would be interesting as well to study the nature of the support that Dhlamini is getting. Let us hope that it is directed towards destroying the harmful culture that is being currently perpetuated and not some people who have decided to jump on the band wagon and have thus decided to vent out all their vendettas on the king's rule. It is important that this issue is seen as it is supposed to be viewed, a women's rights abuse issue. That should be the first call when people examine this issue. Kudzai -----Original Message----- From: lindiwe nkutha [SMTP:lindiwe@genderlinks.org.za] Sent: 18 November 2002 10:59 To: research; egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity Hi again Interestingly as we talk about culture we begin to challaenge our own beliefs on what constitutes culture as well as how we understand the workings of it. Critical to this realisation is our understanding and appreciation of how culture is passed on from generation to generation, entrenching positions of indivduals and setting precedents that future genarations will follow often times unquestioned. Bakari raises properly the predicament of chicken and egg where culture is concerned, and so we ask, in the formation of society and the negotiation of indivual identities which takes more precedent, the indivual make up of members of communities or the culture into which they are born? And this is the real quanandram! If we agree that culture exists for amongst other reasons as a tempalte on which our own indivual identities are formed, we agree also that gender roles are difined in culture; the man as hunter, gatherer and aggressor and woman as surbesvient receipient of caring, nurtiring etc etc are entrenched also in culture (and not just African cultures, just about all cultures in fact). So that we base our understanding of the situation in Swaziland on this premise, and begin to realise that from generation to generation, women in Swaziland would gather for the reed dance, half naked or almost entirely completely naked as Bakari says, is no co-incidence, it is done because it is a practice that fore ancestors engaged in as part of their cultural expression ( to what end now, is what we have to grapple with) . As a by the way as on my way to my point, I need to say, Swazi people and in fact most cultures in Southern Africa did not wear anything much before we were introduced to a western way of dressing...part of our colonisation...essentially "nudity" was for us never a tabooo. The comment on nudity reflects how the western way of being have influenced how we see ourselves. Having said that and getting back on course to my point, I need to repeat what I said yesterday, which Columbus picked up on also, that "customs and culture can be used to further gains of individuals". The genesis of the reed dance a Swazi friend informs me, was for the Queen mother, never a parade for the king to choose his wives. It was for the queen mother to choose for herself maidens that would help her in her homestead . The "king" has now appropriated this tradition for himself and has turned it into a peep show for himself (re-entrenching women's positions as objects of gaze...for the titilation of his own self). Is it then the practice itself that is wrong or is the "reason" for its continuance that is oppressive? and this is the point of this discussion I mantain. Bakari says women in Swaziland ecxept for my namesake Dlamini agree with the culture and customs. This statement is not entirely wrong, because if they did not no woman would send their daughters to the reed dance, and as westernised as we have become mothers in Swaziland would ensure that if their daughters went they were fully clothed and so on and so on. But why do women continue to send their children? Because women are in most cases the custodians of culture, and if we all agree that culture in the wrong hands can be oppressive we begin to appreciate how women remaining oblivious to their oppression can serve the interests of those who seek to keep them oppressed. And right here is where I agree fully with Bakari, knowldge is power! Knowledge and information on the basis of which change can be negotiated both at an individual and community level has been witheld for far too long from women. Unless and until women conscientize one another or are conscientized to a different reality, such abuses as we see in Swaziland will continue. Because culture is not static, and is ever changing, what will begin to happen is that together, as women and men we will begin to build a new culture that defines aptly who we want to be. Unless that happens (not only in Swaziland) but the world over women will appear and in fact may just continue to collude in their own oppression. Oh dear I'm afraid I have gone on and on...apologies Alice for the lenght of this, but I guess what I was trying to say in a very round about way is (i) culture is not static and is capable of being changed by individuals (ii) women need to be empowred to begin to see the world differently so they contribute meaningfully to processses that shape their lives, including the shaping of culture. Until next time Lindiwe Nkutha ----- Original Message ----- From: "bakari machumu" To: "lindiwe nkutha" ; "research" ; Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 6:02 PM Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > Hi to all, > This is kind of a tricky situation where one get > confused on a situation like a chick and egg, what > comes first. Can't demacate clearly that, from this > point on, human rights begins. I think if we are to go > on with this culture, custom and tradition thing, then > it should be under equal applications for both Men and > Women. But do women as women know their right in > Swaziland, i mean with the exception of Lindiwe > Dlaminimost Swazi women, (its my guess i stand to be > corrected) agrees with the culture, customs tradition > thing todate. I mean, i can't imagine them continuing > parading with their upper bodies and most of the under > part in such neckedness, that by itself keeps their > minds in it.To me that, consititutes negative cultural > practices Now, to solve this thing, i believe on > agressive, consistent awareness creation.How? that is > the question > > Bakari > Dar es Salaam > > > > --- lindiwe nkutha wrote: > > Hi to all > > > > Its an interesting topic isn't it'? the convergence > > of human rights and custom/ culture etc. Ideally > > these should not be mutually exclusive, me thinks. I > > think also that in particular, southern African > > customs that espouse or purport to espouse the > > principle of Ubuntu should not at all have a problem > > with human rights. (but then again there are a lot > > of things I think that are not necessarily fact). My > > rationale is if the foundation of the concept of > > ubuntu which is said to recognise (albeit > > philosophically) that "I am because you are" is our > > point of departure then who I am is intrinsically > > linked to who you are. If you are free, so am I > > free, if you are oppressed, so am I oppressed, and > > so on and so on. > > > > But because society loves an "other", and > > patriarchy has worked wonders in "securing women's > > positions as others", patriarchy in a heavy disguise > > as culture has always been used as the banner under > > which abuses of human rights are perpetuated. So > > that the lines were blurred and everytime we said > > "I am because you are" and we were speaking as men, > > it almost felt natural, cultural, in line with dated > > customs to exclude women. In this context the > > speaking ""I am...."' is under patriarchy, not > > considered the speaking female, it is always > > the"speaking male and this gets termed culturally > > acceptable practise, but it is not. > > > > If we move form the ""ubuntu" premise, we begin to > > see that the marginalisation and subjugation of > > women is against the principle said to ground our > > culture. If we accept, and perhaps this is one > > aspect in our "evolution - culturally" that we left > > behind, the acceptance that the speaking "I am..." > > is both male and female, then within culture we > > begin to see that some of the things that get > > justified as culture are in fact not cultural, but > > are patriarchal practices dressed as culture. > > > > The king says he will not turn away from his > > cultural practices no matter what! Selectively so, > > he sticks to his cultural practices when it suits > > him, because there are benefits for him. Which is > > another thing about culture that is worth > > mentioning. More times than not the most vocal > > voices on the adoption of culture are those that > > have a vested interest in the practice at hand. An > > uncle who needs to "cleanse a widow" will probably > > be the loudest about upholding culture, even though > > they may be silent about other aspects of that same > > culture. My point being that culture can be used to > > advance or secure people's positions. > > > > As I sign off, I need to make it clear that I do not > > think that culture is all bad. No in fact I > > appreciate the critical position that particularly > > those in countries that were previously colonised > > are grappling with. A project of recovery of that > > which we were before our culture was tempered with, > > balanced against the reality of the now and who we > > define ourselves as presently as well as the > > challenge of self definition into the future of who > > we want to be. And we sit in a challenging > > position. The true test for all of us though (me > > thinks) in assessing what is acceptable as culture > > and what is not acceptable is whether or not the > > precise in any way takes away from an individual > > (and in turn the collective...community ...based on > > Ubuntu) > > ability to enjoy to its full extent the experience > > of being human. > > > > Until later > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: research > > To: egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > > Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 9:47 AM > > Subject: [Egemtraining] This week's discussion > > topic: Lets Talk!!! > > > > > > Dear All > > > > I am sure most of you have been itching to receive > > the first discussion topic and are ready to roll!!! > > I have been keenly waiting to start as weel. Below > > is the discussion topic and the question at the end > > of the piece. Please remember not to make your > > contribution too long. Just comment as briefly as > > possible to give others a chance to also share their > > opinions. Also remember to "reply to all" so that > > you do not share your opinion just with me but with > > all in the network. Happy reading and looking > > forward to hearing your opinions!!! > > > > > > Where does culture start and stop, and individual > > rights begin? > > > > > > > > I am sure most of us are aware of the > > controversial ongoing court case in Swaziland > > between a mother (Lindiwe Dlamini) and the King (his > > aides) concerning the abduction of an > > 18-year-old-child (Zena) Mahlangu for "royal > > duties". > > > > > > > > For those who have not been following the case, > > the King (who is being sued through his aides, is > > alleged to have abducted the child from school > > without her mother's knowledge and consent. Lindiwe > > wants her child to be returned to her custody and > > the King has been arguing that the child is being > > kept at the Royal Guest House to be prepared to be > > the King's 10th wife. The King was quoted as saying > > at a press conference, "The whole issue has been > > blown out of proportion by those who took advantage > > of trying to destroy our customs and traditions". > > People may say whatever they want to sy but I vow to > > stick to our traditions, no matter what the times > > are. I can be blamed left and right, but the fact of > > the matter is that it is our culture that I should > > marry many wives as I can. I cannot allow myself to > > be forced to follow Western culture". > > > > > > > > The controversy is generally seen as a "clash > > between customs and modernity". According to custom, > > Mswati may choose a new wife each year from among > > the thousands of virgins who attend the annual reed > > dance". Ironically Mswati last year revived a > > traditional ban on sex with underage girls to combat > > HIV/AIDS. > > > > > > > > After protests for the abduction of Zena and two > > other girls, the King fined himself a cow for > > breaking his own royal decree. (BBC News). He was > > also quoted as saying that he was prepared to pay > > cows as fines for selecting the three girls. > > > > > > > > Zena's mother is challenging the alleged > > traditional grabbing of her daughter on the grounds > > that she was not consulted, did not consent and her > > child has been taken out of school and therefore was > > abducted. The King's courtiers (aides) have been > > arguing that the girl was not abducted but went > > willingly. "Everything was arranged between the King > > and the girl and our job was just to pick her at the > > agreed spot. No force was applied". > > > > > > > > Human rights activists have been arguing that > > "traditionalists should stop "raping" girls in the > > name of culture, while royals have been insisting > > that Mswati's selection of Zena to be his bride is a > > traditional issue that must be resolved through > > Swazi customs and culture. > > > > > > > > Gender and human rights activists have noted that > > Zena is a minor child (18 years) and the abduction > > is a criminal offence in that it violates > > > > 1) Lindiwe Dlamini's rights to custody and > > guardianship over her minor child and also that; > > > > 2) Zena's rights to liberty, freedom of movement, > > education, choice of marriage partner, right to be a > > child and bodily integrity. > > > > > > > > Most of us are, I am sure, aware that Swaziland is > > signatory to the SADC Declaration on Gender and > > Development which commits it in article (vii) to, > > among other things, protecting the human rights of > > women and children, which raises a number of > > concerns regarding this case. > > > > > > > > Question for Discussion > > > > > > 1) Where should culture, custom and tradition > > stop and individual human rights begin, to ensure > > the > === message truncated === > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Everything you'll ever need on one web page > from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts > http://uk.my.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > Egemtraining mailing list > Egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > http://lists.sn.apc.org/mailman/listinfo/egemtraining > _______________________________________________ Egemtraining mailing list Egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org http://lists.sn.apc.org/mailman/listinfo/egemtraining From jonij@law.wits.ac.za Tue Nov 19 11:55:38 2002 From: jonij@law.wits.ac.za (Jennifer Joni) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 13:55:38 +0200 Subject: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity References: <20021118160225.65103.qmail@web40911.mail.yahoo.com> <005501c28ee0$c72b7e10$0f00a8c0@MOTH> Message-ID: <001c01c28fc2$93f30580$94228d92@wits.ac.za> maqabane Interesting subject, culture and people wanting to use culture to do their horrendous, violent deeds. There are a few issues that i always grapple with when confronted with these questions, which I honestly believe go to the root of who we are; I mean those of us who are expected to respect our culture. At what point does culture stop being that which we think should be practiced? Is this determined by the western values that have been instilled in us since colonialism? Do we (especially in South Africa) say that we now have a Constitution which says that conduct that is in not in line with the vales in the Constitution, is unconstitutional. Those values being human dignity, equality and blah blah blah. The reason I am raising these concerns emanates from a statement made at the Racism Conference, where one woman stated that we should be cautious of attempts by the other -who is insistent and is forcing the people to abrogate their culture because they think it is oppressive. The yardstick being the western culture. I am not condoning what Moswati is doing but I would like to know what processes need to be put in place to challenge abusive, insulting practices. Do we for example take stock of all those practices that we think perpetuate violence against women? and then decide and agree how we are going to change them? Who does this for us? In my Xhosa culture there are indeed practices that are demeaning, and cause a lot of hardship for women. How do we attend to this. Salani ngoxolo The JJ ----- Original Message ----- From: lindiwe nkutha To: research ; Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 10:59 AM Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > Hi again > > Interestingly as we talk about culture we begin to challaenge our own > beliefs on what constitutes culture as well as how we understand the > workings of it. Critical to this realisation is our understanding and > appreciation of how culture is passed on from generation to generation, > entrenching positions of indivduals and setting precedents that future > genarations will follow often times unquestioned. > > Bakari raises properly the predicament of chicken and egg where culture is > concerned, and so we ask, in the formation of society and the negotiation of > indivual identities which takes more precedent, the indivual make up of > members of communities or the culture into which they are born? And this is > the real quanandram! > > If we agree that culture exists for amongst other reasons as a tempalte on > which our own indivual identities are formed, we agree also that gender > roles are difined in culture; the man as hunter, gatherer and aggressor and > woman as surbesvient receipient of caring, nurtiring etc etc are entrenched > also in culture (and not just African cultures, just about all cultures in > fact). So that we base our understanding of the situation in Swaziland on > this premise, and begin to realise that from generation to generation, women > in Swaziland would gather for the reed dance, half naked or almost entirely > completely naked as Bakari says, is no co-incidence, it is done because it > is a practice that fore ancestors engaged in as part of their cultural > expression ( to what end now, is what we have to grapple with) . > > As a by the way as on my way to my point, I need to say, Swazi people and > in fact most cultures in Southern Africa did not wear anything much before > we were introduced to a western way of dressing...part of our > colonisation...essentially "nudity" was for us never a tabooo. The comment > on nudity reflects how the western way of being have influenced how we see > ourselves. > > Having said that and getting back on course to my point, I need to repeat > what I said yesterday, which Columbus picked up on also, that "customs and > culture can be used to further gains of individuals". The genesis of the > reed dance a Swazi friend informs me, was for the Queen mother, never a > parade for the king to choose his wives. It was for the queen mother to > choose for herself maidens that would help her in her homestead . The "king" > has now appropriated this tradition for himself and has turned it into a > peep show for himself (re-entrenching women's positions as objects of > gaze...for the titilation of his own self). Is it then the practice itself > that is wrong or is the "reason" for its continuance that is oppressive? and > this is the point of this discussion I mantain. Bakari says women in > Swaziland ecxept for my namesake Dlamini agree with the culture and customs. > This statement is not entirely wrong, because if they did not no woman > would send their daughters to the reed dance, and as westernised as we have > become mothers in Swaziland would ensure that if their daughters went they > were fully clothed and so on and so on. > > But why do women continue to send their children? Because women are in most > cases the custodians of culture, and if we all agree that culture in the > wrong hands can be oppressive we begin to appreciate how women remaining > oblivious to their oppression can serve the interests of those who seek to > keep them oppressed. And right here is where I agree fully with Bakari, > knowldge is power! Knowledge and information on the basis of which change > can be negotiated both at an individual and community level has been witheld > for far too long from women. Unless and until women conscientize one another > or are conscientized to a different reality, such abuses as we see in > Swaziland will continue. Because culture is not static, and is ever > changing, what will begin to happen is that together, as women and men we > will begin to build a new culture that defines aptly who we want to be. > Unless that happens (not only in Swaziland) but the world over women will > appear and in fact may just continue to collude in their own oppression. > > Oh dear I'm afraid I have gone on and on...apologies Alice for the lenght of > this, but I guess what I was trying to say in a very round about way is (i) > culture is not static and is capable of being changed by individuals (ii) > women need to be empowred to begin to see the world differently so they > contribute meaningfully to processses that shape their lives, including the > shaping of culture. > > Until next time > > Lindiwe Nkutha > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "bakari machumu" > To: "lindiwe nkutha" ; "research" > ; > Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 6:02 PM > Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > > > > Hi to all, > > This is kind of a tricky situation where one get > > confused on a situation like a chick and egg, what > > comes first. Can't demacate clearly that, from this > > point on, human rights begins. I think if we are to go > > on with this culture, custom and tradition thing, then > > it should be under equal applications for both Men and > > Women. But do women as women know their right in > > Swaziland, i mean with the exception of Lindiwe > > Dlaminimost Swazi women, (its my guess i stand to be > > corrected) agrees with the culture, customs tradition > > thing todate. I mean, i can't imagine them continuing > > parading with their upper bodies and most of the under > > part in such neckedness, that by itself keeps their > > minds in it.To me that, consititutes negative cultural > > practices Now, to solve this thing, i believe on > > agressive, consistent awareness creation.How? that is > > the question > > > > Bakari > > Dar es Salaam > > > > > > > > --- lindiwe nkutha wrote: > > > Hi to all > > > > > > Its an interesting topic isn't it'? the convergence > > > of human rights and custom/ culture etc. Ideally > > > these should not be mutually exclusive, me thinks. I > > > think also that in particular, southern African > > > customs that espouse or purport to espouse the > > > principle of Ubuntu should not at all have a problem > > > with human rights. (but then again there are a lot > > > of things I think that are not necessarily fact). My > > > rationale is if the foundation of the concept of > > > ubuntu which is said to recognise (albeit > > > philosophically) that "I am because you are" is our > > > point of departure then who I am is intrinsically > > > linked to who you are. If you are free, so am I > > > free, if you are oppressed, so am I oppressed, and > > > so on and so on. > > > > > > But because society loves an "other", and > > > patriarchy has worked wonders in "securing women's > > > positions as others", patriarchy in a heavy disguise > > > as culture has always been used as the banner under > > > which abuses of human rights are perpetuated. So > > > that the lines were blurred and everytime we said > > > "I am because you are" and we were speaking as men, > > > it almost felt natural, cultural, in line with dated > > > customs to exclude women. In this context the > > > speaking ""I am...."' is under patriarchy, not > > > considered the speaking female, it is always > > > the"speaking male and this gets termed culturally > > > acceptable practise, but it is not. > > > > > > If we move form the ""ubuntu" premise, we begin to > > > see that the marginalisation and subjugation of > > > women is against the principle said to ground our > > > culture. If we accept, and perhaps this is one > > > aspect in our "evolution - culturally" that we left > > > behind, the acceptance that the speaking "I am..." > > > is both male and female, then within culture we > > > begin to see that some of the things that get > > > justified as culture are in fact not cultural, but > > > are patriarchal practices dressed as culture. > > > > > > The king says he will not turn away from his > > > cultural practices no matter what! Selectively so, > > > he sticks to his cultural practices when it suits > > > him, because there are benefits for him. Which is > > > another thing about culture that is worth > > > mentioning. More times than not the most vocal > > > voices on the adoption of culture are those that > > > have a vested interest in the practice at hand. An > > > uncle who needs to "cleanse a widow" will probably > > > be the loudest about upholding culture, even though > > > they may be silent about other aspects of that same > > > culture. My point being that culture can be used to > > > advance or secure people's positions. > > > > > > As I sign off, I need to make it clear that I do not > > > think that culture is all bad. No in fact I > > > appreciate the critical position that particularly > > > those in countries that were previously colonised > > > are grappling with. A project of recovery of that > > > which we were before our culture was tempered with, > > > balanced against the reality of the now and who we > > > define ourselves as presently as well as the > > > challenge of self definition into the future of who > > > we want to be. And we sit in a challenging > > > position. The true test for all of us though (me > > > thinks) in assessing what is acceptable as culture > > > and what is not acceptable is whether or not the > > > precise in any way takes away from an individual > > > (and in turn the collective...community ...based on > > > Ubuntu) > > > ability to enjoy to its full extent the experience > > > of being human. > > > > > > Until later > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: research > > > To: egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > > > Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 9:47 AM > > > Subject: [Egemtraining] This week's discussion > > > topic: Lets Talk!!! > > > > > > > > > Dear All > > > > > > I am sure most of you have been itching to receive > > > the first discussion topic and are ready to roll!!! > > > I have been keenly waiting to start as weel. Below > > > is the discussion topic and the question at the end > > > of the piece. Please remember not to make your > > > contribution too long. Just comment as briefly as > > > possible to give others a chance to also share their > > > opinions. Also remember to "reply to all" so that > > > you do not share your opinion just with me but with > > > all in the network. Happy reading and looking > > > forward to hearing your opinions!!! > > > > > > > > > Where does culture start and stop, and individual > > > rights begin? > > > > > > > > > > > > I am sure most of us are aware of the > > > controversial ongoing court case in Swaziland > > > between a mother (Lindiwe Dlamini) and the King (his > > > aides) concerning the abduction of an > > > 18-year-old-child (Zena) Mahlangu for "royal > > > duties". > > > > > > > > > > > > For those who have not been following the case, > > > the King (who is being sued through his aides, is > > > alleged to have abducted the child from school > > > without her mother's knowledge and consent. Lindiwe > > > wants her child to be returned to her custody and > > > the King has been arguing that the child is being > > > kept at the Royal Guest House to be prepared to be > > > the King's 10th wife. The King was quoted as saying > > > at a press conference, "The whole issue has been > > > blown out of proportion by those who took advantage > > > of trying to destroy our customs and traditions". > > > People may say whatever they want to sy but I vow to > > > stick to our traditions, no matter what the times > > > are. I can be blamed left and right, but the fact of > > > the matter is that it is our culture that I should > > > marry many wives as I can. I cannot allow myself to > > > be forced to follow Western culture". > > > > > > > > > > > > The controversy is generally seen as a "clash > > > between customs and modernity". According to custom, > > > Mswati may choose a new wife each year from among > > > the thousands of virgins who attend the annual reed > > > dance". Ironically Mswati last year revived a > > > traditional ban on sex with underage girls to combat > > > HIV/AIDS. > > > > > > > > > > > > After protests for the abduction of Zena and two > > > other girls, the King fined himself a cow for > > > breaking his own royal decree. (BBC News). He was > > > also quoted as saying that he was prepared to pay > > > cows as fines for selecting the three girls. > > > > > > > > > > > > Zena's mother is challenging the alleged > > > traditional grabbing of her daughter on the grounds > > > that she was not consulted, did not consent and her > > > child has been taken out of school and therefore was > > > abducted. The King's courtiers (aides) have been > > > arguing that the girl was not abducted but went > > > willingly. "Everything was arranged between the King > > > and the girl and our job was just to pick her at the > > > agreed spot. No force was applied". > > > > > > > > > > > > Human rights activists have been arguing that > > > "traditionalists should stop "raping" girls in the > > > name of culture, while royals have been insisting > > > that Mswati's selection of Zena to be his bride is a > > > traditional issue that must be resolved through > > > Swazi customs and culture. > > > > > > > > > > > > Gender and human rights activists have noted that > > > Zena is a minor child (18 years) and the abduction > > > is a criminal offence in that it violates > > > > > > 1) Lindiwe Dlamini's rights to custody and > > > guardianship over her minor child and also that; > > > > > > 2) Zena's rights to liberty, freedom of movement, > > > education, choice of marriage partner, right to be a > > > child and bodily integrity. > > > > > > > > > > > > Most of us are, I am sure, aware that Swaziland is > > > signatory to the SADC Declaration on Gender and > > > Development which commits it in article (vii) to, > > > among other things, protecting the human rights of > > > women and children, which raises a number of > > > concerns regarding this case. > > > > > > > > > > > > Question for Discussion > > > > > > > > > 1) Where should culture, custom and tradition > > > stop and individual human rights begin, to ensure > > > the > > === message truncated === > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Everything you'll ever need on one web page > > from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts > > http://uk.my.yahoo.com > > _______________________________________________ > > Egemtraining mailing list > > Egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > > http://lists.sn.apc.org/mailman/listinfo/egemtraining > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Egemtraining mailing list > Egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > http://lists.sn.apc.org/mailman/listinfo/egemtraining > From katenchimbi@hotmail.com Tue Nov 19 12:20:09 2002 From: katenchimbi@hotmail.com (KATE NCHIMBI) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 15:20:09 +0300 Subject: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity Message-ID:

Hi all.

Leaders should be an example to the society, and what the king did was wrong as the mirror of his society so its upon the elders in his community to correct him so that he should never repeat the mistake.

The customs are there but we should go with the current sitution whereby the girls need education so that they can acquire better life. If the king thought he could never live without the girl he should wait until she finish her education.We should never go against human rights in the name of customs and traditions.

Catherine Nchimbi.

>From: bakari machumu
>To: lindiwe nkutha ,research , egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org
>Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity
>Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 16:02:25 +0000 (GMT)
>
> Hi to all,
>This is kind of a tricky situation where one get
>confused on a situation like a chick and egg, what
>comes first. Can't demacate clearly that, from this
>point on, human rights begins. I think if we are to go
>on with this culture, custom and tradition thing, then
>it should be under equal applications for both Men and
>Women. But do women as women know their right in
>Swaziland, i mean with the exception of Lindiwe
>Dlaminimost Swazi women, (its my guess i stand to be
>corrected) agrees with the culture, customs tradition
>thing todate. I mean, i can't imagine them continuing
>parading with their upper bodies and most of the under
>part in such neckedness, that by itself keeps their
>minds in it.To me that, consititutes negative cultural
>practices Now, to solve this thing, i believe on
>agressive, consistent awareness creation.How? that is
>the question
>
>Bakari
>Dar es Salaam
>
>
>
>--- lindiwe nkutha wrote:
> > Hi to all
> >
> > Its an interesting topic isn't it'? the convergence
> > of human rights and custom/ culture etc. Ideally
> > these should not be mutually exclusive, me thinks. I
> > think also that in particular, southern African
> > customs that espouse or purport to espouse the
> > principle of Ubuntu should not at all have a problem
> > with human rights. (but then again there are a lot
> > of things I think that are not necessarily fact). My
> > rationale is if the foundation of the concept of
> > ubuntu which is said to recognise (albeit
> > philosophically) that "I am because you are" is our
> > point of departure then who I am is intrinsically
> > linked to who you are. If you are free, so am I
> > free, if you are oppressed, so am I oppressed, and
> > so on and so on.
> >
> > But because society loves an "other", and
> > patriarchy has worked wonders in "securing women's
> > positions as others", patriarchy in a heavy disguise
> > as culture has always been used as the banner under
> > which abuses of human rights are perpetuated. So
> > that the lines were blurred and everytime we said
> > "I am because you are" and we were speaking as men,
> > it almost felt natural, cultural, in line with dated
> > customs to exclude women. In this context the
> > speaking ""I am...."' is under patriarchy, not
> > considered the speaking female, it is always
> > the"speaking male and this gets termed culturally
> > acceptable practise, but it is not.
> >
> > If we move form the ""ubuntu" premise, we begin to
> > see that the marginalisation and subjugation of
> > women is against the principle said to ground our
> > culture. If we accept, and perhaps this is one
> > aspect in our "evolution - culturally" that we left
> > behind, the acceptance that the speaking "I am..."
> > is both male and female, then within culture we
> > begin to see that some of the things that get
> > justified as culture are in fact not cultural, but
> > are patriarchal practices dressed as culture.
> >
> > The king says he will not turn away from his
> > cultural practices no matter what! Selectively so,
> > he sticks to his cultural practices when it suits
> > him, because there are benefits for him. Which is
> > another thing about culture that is worth
> > mentioning. More times than not the most vocal
> > voices on the adoption of culture are those that
> > have a vested interest in the practice at hand. An
> > uncle who needs to "cleanse a widow" will probably
> > be the loudest about upholding culture, even though
> > they may be silent about other aspects of that same
> > culture. My point being that culture can be used to
> > advance or secure people's positions.
> >
> > As I sign off, I need to make it clear that I do not
> > think that culture is all bad. No in fact I
> > appreciate the critical position that particularly
> > those in countries that were previously colonised
> > are grappling with. A project of recovery of that
> > which we were before our culture was tempered with,
> > balanced against the reality of the now and who we
> > define ourselves as presently as well as the
> > challenge of self definition into the future of who
> > we want to be. And we sit in a challenging
> > position. The true test for all of us though (me
> > thinks) in assessing what is acceptable as culture
> > and what is not acceptable is whether or not the
> > precise in any way takes away from an individual
> > (and in turn the collective...community ...based on
> > Ubuntu)
> > ability to enjoy to its full extent the experience
> > of being human.
> >
> > Until later
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: research
> > To: egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org
> > Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 9:47 AM
> > Subject: [Egemtraining] This week's discussion
> > topic: Lets Talk!!!
> >
> >
> > Dear All
> >
> > I am sure most of you have been itching to receive
> > the first discussion topic and are ready to roll!!!
> > I have been keenly waiting to start as weel. Below
> > is the discussion topic and the question at the end
> > of the piece. Please remember not to make your
> > contribution too long. Just comment as briefly as
> > possible to give others a chance to also share their
> > opinions. Also remember to "reply to all" so that
> > you do not share your opinion just with me but with
> > all in the network. Happy reading and looking
> > forward to hearing your opinions!!!
> >
> >
> > Where does culture start and stop, and individual
> > rights begin?
> >
> >
> >
> > I am sure most of us are aware of the
> > controversial ongoing court case in Swaziland
> > between a mother (Lindiwe Dlamini) and the King (his
> > aides) concerning the abduction of an
> > 18-year-old-child (Zena) Mahlangu for "royal
> > duties".
> >
> >
> >
> > For those who have not been following the case,
> > the King (who is being sued through his aides, is
> > alleged to have abducted the child from school
> > without her mother's knowledge and consent. Lindiwe
> > wants her child to be returned to her custody and
> > the King has been arguing that the child is being
> > kept at the Royal Guest House to be prepared to be
> > the King's 10th wife. The King was quoted as saying
> > at a press conference, "The whole issue has been
> > blown out of proportion by those who took advantage
> > of trying to destroy our customs and traditions".
> > People may say whatever they want to sy but I vow to
> > stick to our traditions, no matter what the times
> > are. I can be blamed left and right, but the fact of
> > the matter is that it is our culture that I should
> > marry many wives as I can. I cannot allow myself to
> > be forced to follow Western culture".
> >
> >
> >
> > The controversy is generally seen as a "clash
> > between customs and modernity". According to custom,
> > Mswati may choose a new wife each year from among
> > the thousands of virgins who attend the annual reed
> > dance". Ironically Mswati last year revived a
> > traditional ban on sex with underage girls to combat
> > HIV/AIDS.
> >
> >
> >
> > After protests for the abduction of Zena and two
> > other girls, the King fined himself a cow for
> > breaking his own royal decree. (BBC News). He was
> > also quoted as saying that he was prepared to pay
> > cows as fines for selecting the three girls.
> >
> >
> >
> > Zena's mother is challenging the alleged
> > traditional grabbing of her daughter on the grounds
> > that she was not consulted, did not consent and her
> > child has been taken out of school and therefore was
> > abducted. The King's courtiers (aides) have been
> > arguing that the girl was not abducted but went
> > willingly. "Everything was arranged between the King
> > and the girl and our job was just to pick her at the
> > agreed spot. No force was applied".
> >
> >
> >
> > Human rights activists have been arguing that
> > "traditionalists should stop "raping" girls in the
> > name of culture, while royals have been insisting
> > that Mswati's selection of Zena to be his bride is a
> > traditional issue that must be resolved through
> > Swazi customs and culture.
> >
> >
> >
> > Gender and human rights activists have noted that
> > Zena is a minor child (18 years) and the abduction
> > is a criminal offence in that it violates
> >
> > 1) Lindiwe Dlamini's rights to custody and
> > guardianship over her minor child and also that;
> >
> > 2) Zena's rights to liberty, freedom of movement,
> > education, choice of marriage partner, right to be a
> > child and bodily integrity.
> >
> >
> >
> > Most of us are, I am sure, aware that Swaziland is
> > signatory to the SADC Declaration on Gender and
> > Development which commits it in article (vii) to,
> > among other things, protecting the human rights of
> > women and children, which raises a number of
> > concerns regarding this case.
> >
> >
> >
> > Question for Discussion
> >
> >
> > 1) Where should culture, custom and tradition
> > stop and individual human rights begin, to ensure
> > the
>=== message truncated ===
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Everything you'll ever need on one web page
>from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts
>http://uk.my.yahoo.com
>_______________________________________________
>Egemtraining mailing list
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Protect your PC - Click here for McAfee.com VirusScan Online From mmcdonough@irex.org Tue Nov 19 14:37:37 2002 From: mmcdonough@irex.org (Maggie McDonough) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 09:37:37 -0500 Subject: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity Message-ID: <51E0CF9C2CF499478C33F3D4FFD3763097BEC2@exchange.irex.org> Hello again, I think Jennifer raised some interesting points here, but there is one point in particular that I would like to address -- that is, the concept of human rights being determined by western/colonial values. I actually do not accept that human rights is a uniquely western concept. Human rights have been invoked by people throughout the world, both historically and contemporaneously. Human rights formed the basis of the Non-cooperation Movement AGAINST the British in colonial India. Human rights have formed the basis against the authoritarian and military regimes of Europe and Eurasia. Mass movements (e.g. for gender equality, environmental protection, etc) have gained untold strength and sustenance from human rights issues. The list can go on. Anyway, just wanted to add my two cents on this point. Maggie -----Original Message----- From: Jennifer Joni [mailto:jonij@law.wits.ac.za] Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 6:56 AM To: research; egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity maqabane Interesting subject, culture and people wanting to use culture to do their horrendous, violent deeds. There are a few issues that i always grapple with when confronted with these questions, which I honestly believe go to the root of who we are; I mean those of us who are expected to respect our culture. At what point does culture stop being that which we think should be practiced? Is this determined by the western values that have been instilled in us since colonialism? Do we (especially in South Africa) say that we now have a Constitution which says that conduct that is in not in line with the vales in the Constitution, is unconstitutional. Those values being human dignity, equality and blah blah blah. The reason I am raising these concerns emanates from a statement made at the Racism Conference, where one woman stated that we should be cautious of attempts by the other -who is insistent and is forcing the people to abrogate their culture because they think it is oppressive. The yardstick being the western culture. I am not condoning what Moswati is doing but I would like to know what processes need to be put in place to challenge abusive, insulting practices. Do we for example take stock of all those practices that we think perpetuate violence against women? and then decide and agree how we are going to change them? Who does this for us? In my Xhosa culture there are indeed practices that are demeaning, and cause a lot of hardship for women. How do we attend to this. Salani ngoxolo The JJ ----- Original Message ----- From: lindiwe nkutha To: research ; Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 10:59 AM Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > Hi again > > Interestingly as we talk about culture we begin to challaenge our own > beliefs on what constitutes culture as well as how we understand the > workings of it. Critical to this realisation is our understanding and > appreciation of how culture is passed on from generation to > generation, entrenching positions of indivduals and setting precedents > that future genarations will follow often times unquestioned. > > Bakari raises properly the predicament of chicken and egg where > culture is concerned, and so we ask, in the formation of society and > the negotiation of > indivual identities which takes more precedent, the indivual make up > of members of communities or the culture into which they are born? And > this is > the real quanandram! > > If we agree that culture exists for amongst other reasons as a > tempalte on which our own indivual identities are formed, we agree > also that gender roles are difined in culture; the man as hunter, > gatherer and aggressor and > woman as surbesvient receipient of caring, nurtiring etc etc are entrenched > also in culture (and not just African cultures, just about all > cultures in fact). So that we base our understanding of the situation > in Swaziland on this premise, and begin to realise that from > generation to generation, women > in Swaziland would gather for the reed dance, half naked or almost entirely > completely naked as Bakari says, is no co-incidence, it is done > because it is a practice that fore ancestors engaged in as part of > their cultural expression ( to what end now, is what we have to > grapple with) . > > As a by the way as on my way to my point, I need to say, Swazi people > and in fact most cultures in Southern Africa did not wear anything > much before we were introduced to a western way of dressing...part of > our colonisation...essentially "nudity" was for us never a tabooo. The > comment on nudity reflects how the western way of being have > influenced how we see ourselves. > > Having said that and getting back on course to my point, I need to > repeat what I said yesterday, which Columbus picked up on also, that > "customs and culture can be used to further gains of individuals". The > genesis of the reed dance a Swazi friend informs me, was for the > Queen mother, never a parade for the king to choose his wives. It was > for the queen mother to choose for herself maidens that would help her > in her homestead . The "king" > has now appropriated this tradition for himself and has turned it into > a peep show for himself (re-entrenching women's positions as objects > of gaze...for the titilation of his own self). Is it then the practice > itself that is wrong or is the "reason" for its continuance that is > oppressive? and > this is the point of this discussion I mantain. Bakari says women in > Swaziland ecxept for my namesake Dlamini agree with the culture and customs. > This statement is not entirely wrong, because if they did not no > woman would send their daughters to the reed dance, and as > westernised as we have > become mothers in Swaziland would ensure that if their daughters went > they were fully clothed and so on and so on. > > But why do women continue to send their children? Because women are in most > cases the custodians of culture, and if we all agree that culture in > the wrong hands can be oppressive we begin to appreciate how women > remaining oblivious to their oppression can serve the interests of > those who seek to keep them oppressed. And right here is where I agree > fully with Bakari, knowldge is power! Knowledge and information on the > basis of which change can be negotiated both at an individual and > community level has been witheld > for far too long from women. Unless and until women conscientize one another > or are conscientized to a different reality, such abuses as we see in > Swaziland will continue. Because culture is not static, and is ever > changing, what will begin to happen is that together, as women and > men we will begin to build a new culture that defines aptly who we > want to be. Unless that happens (not only in Swaziland) but the world > over women will appear and in fact may just continue to collude in > their own oppression. > > Oh dear I'm afraid I have gone on and on...apologies Alice for the > lenght of > this, but I guess what I was trying to say in a very round about way > is (i) > culture is not static and is capable of being changed by individuals > (ii) women need to be empowred to begin to see the world differently > so they contribute meaningfully to processses that shape their lives, > including the > shaping of culture. > > Until next time > > Lindiwe Nkutha > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "bakari machumu" > To: "lindiwe nkutha" ; "research" > ; > Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 6:02 PM > Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > > > > Hi to all, > > This is kind of a tricky situation where one get > > confused on a situation like a chick and egg, what > > comes first. Can't demacate clearly that, from this > > point on, human rights begins. I think if we are to go > > on with this culture, custom and tradition thing, then > > it should be under equal applications for both Men and Women. But do > > women as women know their right in Swaziland, i mean with the > > exception of Lindiwe Dlaminimost Swazi women, (its my guess i stand > > to be > > corrected) agrees with the culture, customs tradition > > thing todate. I mean, i can't imagine them continuing parading with > > their upper bodies and most of the under part in such neckedness, > > that by itself keeps their minds in it.To me that, consititutes > > negative cultural practices Now, to solve this thing, i believe on > > agressive, consistent awareness creation.How? that is > > the question > > > > Bakari > > Dar es Salaam > > > > > > > > --- lindiwe nkutha wrote: > > > Hi to all > > > > > > Its an interesting topic isn't it'? the convergence > > > of human rights and custom/ culture etc. Ideally > > > these should not be mutually exclusive, me thinks. I think also > > > that in particular, southern African customs that espouse or > > > purport to espouse the principle of Ubuntu should not at all have > > > a problem with human rights. (but then again there are a lot > > > of things I think that are not necessarily fact). My > > > rationale is if the foundation of the concept of > > > ubuntu which is said to recognise (albeit > > > philosophically) that "I am because you are" is our > > > point of departure then who I am is intrinsically > > > linked to who you are. If you are free, so am I > > > free, if you are oppressed, so am I oppressed, and > > > so on and so on. > > > > > > But because society loves an "other", and > > > patriarchy has worked wonders in "securing women's positions as > > > others", patriarchy in a heavy disguise as culture has always been > > > used as the banner under which abuses of human rights are > > > perpetuated. So that the lines were blurred and everytime we said > > > "I am because you are" and we were speaking as men, > > > it almost felt natural, cultural, in line with dated > > > customs to exclude women. In this context the > > > speaking ""I am...."' is under patriarchy, not > > > considered the speaking female, it is always > > > the"speaking male and this gets termed culturally > > > acceptable practise, but it is not. > > > > > > If we move form the ""ubuntu" premise, we begin to > > > see that the marginalisation and subjugation of > > > women is against the principle said to ground our culture. If we > > > accept, and perhaps this is one aspect in our "evolution - > > > culturally" that we left behind, the acceptance that the speaking > > > "I am..." is both male and female, then within culture we > > > begin to see that some of the things that get > > > justified as culture are in fact not cultural, but > > > are patriarchal practices dressed as culture. > > > > > > The king says he will not turn away from his > > > cultural practices no matter what! Selectively so, > > > he sticks to his cultural practices when it suits > > > him, because there are benefits for him. Which is > > > another thing about culture that is worth > > > mentioning. More times than not the most vocal > > > voices on the adoption of culture are those that > > > have a vested interest in the practice at hand. An > > > uncle who needs to "cleanse a widow" will probably > > > be the loudest about upholding culture, even though > > > they may be silent about other aspects of that same culture. My > > > point being that culture can be used to advance or secure people's > > > positions. > > > > > > As I sign off, I need to make it clear that I do not think that > > > culture is all bad. No in fact I appreciate the critical position > > > that particularly those in countries that were previously > > > colonised are grappling with. A project of recovery of that > > > which we were before our culture was tempered with, > > > balanced against the reality of the now and who we > > > define ourselves as presently as well as the > > > challenge of self definition into the future of who > > > we want to be. And we sit in a challenging > > > position. The true test for all of us though (me > > > thinks) in assessing what is acceptable as culture > > > and what is not acceptable is whether or not the > > > precise in any way takes away from an individual > > > (and in turn the collective...community ...based on > > > Ubuntu) > > > ability to enjoy to its full extent the experience > > > of being human. > > > > > > Until later > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: research > > > To: egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > > > Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 9:47 AM > > > Subject: [Egemtraining] This week's discussion > > > topic: Lets Talk!!! > > > > > > > > > Dear All > > > > > > I am sure most of you have been itching to receive > > > the first discussion topic and are ready to roll!!! > > > I have been keenly waiting to start as weel. Below > > > is the discussion topic and the question at the end > > > of the piece. Please remember not to make your contribution too > > > long. Just comment as briefly as possible to give others a chance > > > to also share their opinions. Also remember to "reply to all" so > > > that you do not share your opinion just with me but with > > > all in the network. Happy reading and looking > > > forward to hearing your opinions!!! > > > > > > > > > Where does culture start and stop, and individual rights begin? > > > > > > > > > > > > I am sure most of us are aware of the > > > controversial ongoing court case in Swaziland > > > between a mother (Lindiwe Dlamini) and the King (his > > > aides) concerning the abduction of an > > > 18-year-old-child (Zena) Mahlangu for "royal > > > duties". > > > > > > > > > > > > For those who have not been following the case, > > > the King (who is being sued through his aides, is > > > alleged to have abducted the child from school > > > without her mother's knowledge and consent. Lindiwe > > > wants her child to be returned to her custody and > > > the King has been arguing that the child is being > > > kept at the Royal Guest House to be prepared to be > > > the King's 10th wife. The King was quoted as saying > > > at a press conference, "The whole issue has been > > > blown out of proportion by those who took advantage > > > of trying to destroy our customs and traditions". > > > People may say whatever they want to sy but I vow to > > > stick to our traditions, no matter what the times > > > are. I can be blamed left and right, but the fact of > > > the matter is that it is our culture that I should > > > marry many wives as I can. I cannot allow myself to > > > be forced to follow Western culture". > > > > > > > > > > > > The controversy is generally seen as a "clash > > > between customs and modernity". According to custom, > > > Mswati may choose a new wife each year from among > > > the thousands of virgins who attend the annual reed > > > dance". Ironically Mswati last year revived a > > > traditional ban on sex with underage girls to combat > > > HIV/AIDS. > > > > > > > > > > > > After protests for the abduction of Zena and two > > > other girls, the King fined himself a cow for > > > breaking his own royal decree. (BBC News). He was > > > also quoted as saying that he was prepared to pay > > > cows as fines for selecting the three girls. > > > > > > > > > > > > Zena's mother is challenging the alleged > > > traditional grabbing of her daughter on the grounds > > > that she was not consulted, did not consent and her > > > child has been taken out of school and therefore was > > > abducted. The King's courtiers (aides) have been > > > arguing that the girl was not abducted but went > > > willingly. "Everything was arranged between the King > > > and the girl and our job was just to pick her at the > > > agreed spot. No force was applied". > > > > > > > > > > > > Human rights activists have been arguing that > > > "traditionalists should stop "raping" girls in the > > > name of culture, while royals have been insisting > > > that Mswati's selection of Zena to be his bride is a > > > traditional issue that must be resolved through > > > Swazi customs and culture. > > > > > > > > > > > > Gender and human rights activists have noted that > > > Zena is a minor child (18 years) and the abduction > > > is a criminal offence in that it violates > > > > > > 1) Lindiwe Dlamini's rights to custody and > > > guardianship over her minor child and also that; > > > > > > 2) Zena's rights to liberty, freedom of movement, > > > education, choice of marriage partner, right to be a > > > child and bodily integrity. > > > > > > > > > > > > Most of us are, I am sure, aware that Swaziland is > > > signatory to the SADC Declaration on Gender and > > > Development which commits it in article (vii) to, > > > among other things, protecting the human rights of > > > women and children, which raises a number of > > > concerns regarding this case. > > > > > > > > > > > > Question for Discussion > > > > > > > > > 1) Where should culture, custom and tradition > > > stop and individual human rights begin, to ensure > > > the > > === message truncated === > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Everything you'll ever need on one web page > > from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts > > http://uk.my.yahoo.com > > _______________________________________________ > > Egemtraining mailing list > > Egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > > http://lists.sn.apc.org/mailman/listinfo/egemtraining > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Egemtraining mailing list > Egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > http://lists.sn.apc.org/mailman/listinfo/egemtraining > _______________________________________________ Egemtraining mailing list Egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org http://lists.sn.apc.org/mailman/listinfo/egemtraining From jonij@law.wits.ac.za Tue Nov 19 14:52:56 2002 From: jonij@law.wits.ac.za (Jennifer Joni) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 16:52:56 +0200 Subject: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity References: <51E0CF9C2CF499478C33F3D4FFD3763097BEC2@exchange.irex.org> Message-ID: <000a01c28fdb$58cdfe60$94228d92@wits.ac.za> Maggie, just a pint of clarity. What I was trying to say is that we get caught up in two situations. One is the human rights debate, which I said is meant to determine which of our cultural values should remain, that is does the particular custom /practice pass the constitutional scrutiny. Second, is then the issue about western values that sometimes get used to determine which cultural values should remain. I am not at all suggesting an interrelation between the two concepts. Human rights are the best thing that has ever happened to planet earth, the question is: is using the human rights stick or constitutional arguments relevant in I think we are all trying to uncover here? The JJ ----- Original Message ----- From: Maggie McDonough To: 'Jennifer Joni' ; research ; Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 4:37 PM Subject: RE: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > Hello again, > > I think Jennifer raised some interesting points here, but there is one point > in particular that I would like to address -- that is, the concept of human > rights being determined by western/colonial values. I actually do not > accept that human rights is a uniquely western concept. Human rights have > been invoked by people throughout the world, both historically and > contemporaneously. Human rights formed the basis of the Non-cooperation > Movement AGAINST the British in colonial India. Human rights have formed > the basis against the authoritarian and military regimes of Europe and > Eurasia. Mass movements (e.g. for gender equality, environmental > protection, etc) have gained untold strength and sustenance from human > rights issues. The list can go on. > > Anyway, just wanted to add my two cents on this point. > > Maggie > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jennifer Joni [mailto:jonij@law.wits.ac.za] > Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 6:56 AM > To: research; egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > > > maqabane > > Interesting subject, culture and people wanting to use culture to do their > horrendous, violent deeds. There are a few issues that i always grapple > with when confronted with these questions, which I honestly believe go to > the root of who we are; I mean those of us who are expected to respect our > culture. At what point does culture stop being that which we think should be > practiced? Is this determined by the western values that have been > instilled in us since colonialism? Do we (especially in South Africa) say > that we now have a Constitution which says that conduct that is in not in > line with the vales in the Constitution, is unconstitutional. Those values > being human dignity, equality and blah blah blah. The reason I am raising > these concerns emanates from a statement made at the Racism Conference, > where one woman stated that we should be cautious of attempts by the other > -who is insistent and is forcing the people to abrogate their culture > because they think it is oppressive. The yardstick being the western > culture. I am not condoning what Moswati is doing but I would like to know > what processes need to be put in place to challenge abusive, insulting > practices. Do we for example take stock of all those practices that we think > perpetuate violence against women? and then decide and agree how we are > going to change them? Who does this for us? In my Xhosa culture there are > indeed practices that are demeaning, and cause a lot of hardship for women. > How do we attend to this. > > Salani ngoxolo > The JJ > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: lindiwe nkutha > To: research ; > Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 10:59 AM > Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > > > > Hi again > > > > Interestingly as we talk about culture we begin to challaenge our own > > beliefs on what constitutes culture as well as how we understand the > > workings of it. Critical to this realisation is our understanding and > > appreciation of how culture is passed on from generation to > > generation, entrenching positions of indivduals and setting precedents > > that future genarations will follow often times unquestioned. > > > > Bakari raises properly the predicament of chicken and egg where > > culture is concerned, and so we ask, in the formation of society and > > the negotiation > of > > indivual identities which takes more precedent, the indivual make up > > of members of communities or the culture into which they are born? And > > this > is > > the real quanandram! > > > > If we agree that culture exists for amongst other reasons as a > > tempalte on which our own indivual identities are formed, we agree > > also that gender roles are difined in culture; the man as hunter, > > gatherer and aggressor > and > > woman as surbesvient receipient of caring, nurtiring etc etc are > entrenched > > also in culture (and not just African cultures, just about all > > cultures in fact). So that we base our understanding of the situation > > in Swaziland on this premise, and begin to realise that from > > generation to generation, > women > > in Swaziland would gather for the reed dance, half naked or almost > entirely > > completely naked as Bakari says, is no co-incidence, it is done > > because it is a practice that fore ancestors engaged in as part of > > their cultural expression ( to what end now, is what we have to > > grapple with) . > > > > As a by the way as on my way to my point, I need to say, Swazi people > > and in fact most cultures in Southern Africa did not wear anything > > much before we were introduced to a western way of dressing...part of > > our colonisation...essentially "nudity" was for us never a tabooo. The > > comment on nudity reflects how the western way of being have > > influenced how we see ourselves. > > > > Having said that and getting back on course to my point, I need to > > repeat what I said yesterday, which Columbus picked up on also, that > > "customs and culture can be used to further gains of individuals". The > > genesis of the reed dance a Swazi friend informs me, was for the > > Queen mother, never a parade for the king to choose his wives. It was > > for the queen mother to choose for herself maidens that would help her > > in her homestead . The > "king" > > has now appropriated this tradition for himself and has turned it into > > a peep show for himself (re-entrenching women's positions as objects > > of gaze...for the titilation of his own self). Is it then the practice > > itself that is wrong or is the "reason" for its continuance that is > > oppressive? > and > > this is the point of this discussion I mantain. Bakari says women in > > Swaziland ecxept for my namesake Dlamini agree with the culture and > customs. > > This statement is not entirely wrong, because if they did not no > > woman would send their daughters to the reed dance, and as > > westernised as we > have > > become mothers in Swaziland would ensure that if their daughters went > > they were fully clothed and so on and so on. > > > > But why do women continue to send their children? Because women are in > most > > cases the custodians of culture, and if we all agree that culture in > > the wrong hands can be oppressive we begin to appreciate how women > > remaining oblivious to their oppression can serve the interests of > > those who seek to keep them oppressed. And right here is where I agree > > fully with Bakari, knowldge is power! Knowledge and information on the > > basis of which change can be negotiated both at an individual and > > community level has been > witheld > > for far too long from women. Unless and until women conscientize one > another > > or are conscientized to a different reality, such abuses as we see in > > Swaziland will continue. Because culture is not static, and is ever > > changing, what will begin to happen is that together, as women and > > men we will begin to build a new culture that defines aptly who we > > want to be. Unless that happens (not only in Swaziland) but the world > > over women will appear and in fact may just continue to collude in > > their own oppression. > > > > Oh dear I'm afraid I have gone on and on...apologies Alice for the > > lenght > of > > this, but I guess what I was trying to say in a very round about way > > is > (i) > > culture is not static and is capable of being changed by individuals > > (ii) women need to be empowred to begin to see the world differently > > so they contribute meaningfully to processses that shape their lives, > > including > the > > shaping of culture. > > > > Until next time > > > > Lindiwe Nkutha > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "bakari machumu" > > To: "lindiwe nkutha" ; "research" > > ; > > Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 6:02 PM > > Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > > > > > > > Hi to all, > > > This is kind of a tricky situation where one get > > > confused on a situation like a chick and egg, what > > > comes first. Can't demacate clearly that, from this > > > point on, human rights begins. I think if we are to go > > > on with this culture, custom and tradition thing, then > > > it should be under equal applications for both Men and Women. But do > > > women as women know their right in Swaziland, i mean with the > > > exception of Lindiwe Dlaminimost Swazi women, (its my guess i stand > > > to be > > > corrected) agrees with the culture, customs tradition > > > thing todate. I mean, i can't imagine them continuing parading with > > > their upper bodies and most of the under part in such neckedness, > > > that by itself keeps their minds in it.To me that, consititutes > > > negative cultural practices Now, to solve this thing, i believe on > > > agressive, consistent awareness creation.How? that is > > > the question > > > > > > Bakari > > > Dar es Salaam > > > > > > > > > > > > --- lindiwe nkutha wrote: > > > > Hi to all > > > > > > > > Its an interesting topic isn't it'? the convergence > > > > of human rights and custom/ culture etc. Ideally > > > > these should not be mutually exclusive, me thinks. I think also > > > > that in particular, southern African customs that espouse or > > > > purport to espouse the principle of Ubuntu should not at all have > > > > a problem with human rights. (but then again there are a lot > > > > of things I think that are not necessarily fact). My > > > > rationale is if the foundation of the concept of > > > > ubuntu which is said to recognise (albeit > > > > philosophically) that "I am because you are" is our > > > > point of departure then who I am is intrinsically > > > > linked to who you are. If you are free, so am I > > > > free, if you are oppressed, so am I oppressed, and > > > > so on and so on. > > > > > > > > But because society loves an "other", and > > > > patriarchy has worked wonders in "securing women's positions as > > > > others", patriarchy in a heavy disguise as culture has always been > > > > used as the banner under which abuses of human rights are > > > > perpetuated. So that the lines were blurred and everytime we said > > > > "I am because you are" and we were speaking as men, > > > > it almost felt natural, cultural, in line with dated > > > > customs to exclude women. In this context the > > > > speaking ""I am...."' is under patriarchy, not > > > > considered the speaking female, it is always > > > > the"speaking male and this gets termed culturally > > > > acceptable practise, but it is not. > > > > > > > > If we move form the ""ubuntu" premise, we begin to > > > > see that the marginalisation and subjugation of > > > > women is against the principle said to ground our culture. If we > > > > accept, and perhaps this is one aspect in our "evolution - > > > > culturally" that we left behind, the acceptance that the speaking > > > > "I am..." is both male and female, then within culture we > > > > begin to see that some of the things that get > > > > justified as culture are in fact not cultural, but > > > > are patriarchal practices dressed as culture. > > > > > > > > The king says he will not turn away from his > > > > cultural practices no matter what! Selectively so, > > > > he sticks to his cultural practices when it suits > > > > him, because there are benefits for him. Which is > > > > another thing about culture that is worth > > > > mentioning. More times than not the most vocal > > > > voices on the adoption of culture are those that > > > > have a vested interest in the practice at hand. An > > > > uncle who needs to "cleanse a widow" will probably > > > > be the loudest about upholding culture, even though > > > > they may be silent about other aspects of that same culture. My > > > > point being that culture can be used to advance or secure people's > > > > positions. > > > > > > > > As I sign off, I need to make it clear that I do not think that > > > > culture is all bad. No in fact I appreciate the critical position > > > > that particularly those in countries that were previously > > > > colonised are grappling with. A project of recovery of that > > > > which we were before our culture was tempered with, > > > > balanced against the reality of the now and who we > > > > define ourselves as presently as well as the > > > > challenge of self definition into the future of who > > > > we want to be. And we sit in a challenging > > > > position. The true test for all of us though (me > > > > thinks) in assessing what is acceptable as culture > > > > and what is not acceptable is whether or not the > > > > precise in any way takes away from an individual > > > > (and in turn the collective...community ...based on > > > > Ubuntu) > > > > ability to enjoy to its full extent the experience > > > > of being human. > > > > > > > > Until later > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: research > > > > To: egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > > > > Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 9:47 AM > > > > Subject: [Egemtraining] This week's discussion > > > > topic: Lets Talk!!! > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear All > > > > > > > > I am sure most of you have been itching to receive > > > > the first discussion topic and are ready to roll!!! > > > > I have been keenly waiting to start as weel. Below > > > > is the discussion topic and the question at the end > > > > of the piece. Please remember not to make your contribution too > > > > long. Just comment as briefly as possible to give others a chance > > > > to also share their opinions. Also remember to "reply to all" so > > > > that you do not share your opinion just with me but with > > > > all in the network. Happy reading and looking > > > > forward to hearing your opinions!!! > > > > > > > > > > > > Where does culture start and stop, and individual rights begin? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am sure most of us are aware of the > > > > controversial ongoing court case in Swaziland > > > > between a mother (Lindiwe Dlamini) and the King (his > > > > aides) concerning the abduction of an > > > > 18-year-old-child (Zena) Mahlangu for "royal > > > > duties". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For those who have not been following the case, > > > > the King (who is being sued through his aides, is > > > > alleged to have abducted the child from school > > > > without her mother's knowledge and consent. Lindiwe > > > > wants her child to be returned to her custody and > > > > the King has been arguing that the child is being > > > > kept at the Royal Guest House to be prepared to be > > > > the King's 10th wife. The King was quoted as saying > > > > at a press conference, "The whole issue has been > > > > blown out of proportion by those who took advantage > > > > of trying to destroy our customs and traditions". > > > > People may say whatever they want to sy but I vow to > > > > stick to our traditions, no matter what the times > > > > are. I can be blamed left and right, but the fact of > > > > the matter is that it is our culture that I should > > > > marry many wives as I can. I cannot allow myself to > > > > be forced to follow Western culture". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The controversy is generally seen as a "clash > > > > between customs and modernity". According to custom, > > > > Mswati may choose a new wife each year from among > > > > the thousands of virgins who attend the annual reed > > > > dance". Ironically Mswati last year revived a > > > > traditional ban on sex with underage girls to combat > > > > HIV/AIDS. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > After protests for the abduction of Zena and two > > > > other girls, the King fined himself a cow for > > > > breaking his own royal decree. (BBC News). He was > > > > also quoted as saying that he was prepared to pay > > > > cows as fines for selecting the three girls. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Zena's mother is challenging the alleged > > > > traditional grabbing of her daughter on the grounds > > > > that she was not consulted, did not consent and her > > > > child has been taken out of school and therefore was > > > > abducted. The King's courtiers (aides) have been > > > > arguing that the girl was not abducted but went > > > > willingly. "Everything was arranged between the King > > > > and the girl and our job was just to pick her at the > > > > agreed spot. No force was applied". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Human rights activists have been arguing that > > > > "traditionalists should stop "raping" girls in the > > > > name of culture, while royals have been insisting > > > > that Mswati's selection of Zena to be his bride is a > > > > traditional issue that must be resolved through > > > > Swazi customs and culture. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gender and human rights activists have noted that > > > > Zena is a minor child (18 years) and the abduction > > > > is a criminal offence in that it violates > > > > > > > > 1) Lindiwe Dlamini's rights to custody and > > > > guardianship over her minor child and also that; > > > > > > > > 2) Zena's rights to liberty, freedom of movement, > > > > education, choice of marriage partner, right to be a > > > > child and bodily integrity. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Most of us are, I am sure, aware that Swaziland is > > > > signatory to the SADC Declaration on Gender and > > > > Development which commits it in article (vii) to, > > > > among other things, protecting the human rights of > > > > women and children, which raises a number of > > > > concerns regarding this case. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Question for Discussion > > > > > > > > > > > > 1) Where should culture, custom and tradition > > > > stop and individual human rights begin, to ensure > > > > the > > > === message truncated === > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > Everything you'll ever need on one web page > > > from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts > > > http://uk.my.yahoo.com > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Egemtraining mailing list > > > Egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > > > http://lists.sn.apc.org/mailman/listinfo/egemtraining > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Egemtraining mailing list > > Egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > > http://lists.sn.apc.org/mailman/listinfo/egemtraining > > > > _______________________________________________ > Egemtraining mailing list > Egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > http://lists.sn.apc.org/mailman/listinfo/egemtraining > _______________________________________________ > Egemtraining mailing list > Egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > http://lists.sn.apc.org/mailman/listinfo/egemtraining > From mmcdonough@irex.org Tue Nov 19 15:02:15 2002 From: mmcdonough@irex.org (Maggie McDonough) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 10:02:15 -0500 Subject: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity Message-ID: <51E0CF9C2CF499478C33F3D4FFD3763097BEC5@exchange.irex.org> Jennifer, point understood and well taken. Thanks! -----Original Message----- From: Jennifer Joni [mailto:jonij@law.wits.ac.za] Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 9:53 AM To: Maggie McDonough; research; egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity Maggie, just a pint of clarity. What I was trying to say is that we get caught up in two situations. One is the human rights debate, which I said is meant to determine which of our cultural values should remain, that is does the particular custom /practice pass the constitutional scrutiny. Second, is then the issue about western values that sometimes get used to determine which cultural values should remain. I am not at all suggesting an interrelation between the two concepts. Human rights are the best thing that has ever happened to planet earth, the question is: is using the human rights stick or constitutional arguments relevant in I think we are all trying to uncover here? The JJ ----- Original Message ----- From: Maggie McDonough To: 'Jennifer Joni' ; research ; Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 4:37 PM Subject: RE: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > Hello again, > > I think Jennifer raised some interesting points here, but there is one point > in particular that I would like to address -- that is, the concept of human > rights being determined by western/colonial values. I actually do not > accept that human rights is a uniquely western concept. Human rights > have been invoked by people throughout the world, both historically > and contemporaneously. Human rights formed the basis of the > Non-cooperation Movement AGAINST the British in colonial India. Human > rights have formed the basis against the authoritarian and military > regimes of Europe and Eurasia. Mass movements (e.g. for gender > equality, environmental protection, etc) have gained untold strength > and sustenance from human rights issues. The list can go on. > > Anyway, just wanted to add my two cents on this point. > > Maggie > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jennifer Joni [mailto:jonij@law.wits.ac.za] > Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 6:56 AM > To: research; egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > > > maqabane > > Interesting subject, culture and people wanting to use culture to do > their horrendous, violent deeds. There are a few issues that i always > grapple with when confronted with these questions, which I honestly > believe go to the root of who we are; I mean those of us who are > expected to respect our culture. At what point does culture stop being > that which we think should be > practiced? Is this determined by the western values that have been > instilled in us since colonialism? Do we (especially in South Africa) > say that we now have a Constitution which says that conduct that is in > not in line with the vales in the Constitution, is unconstitutional. > Those values > being human dignity, equality and blah blah blah. The reason I am > raising these concerns emanates from a statement made at the Racism > Conference, where one woman stated that we should be cautious of > attempts by the other -who is insistent and is forcing the people to > abrogate their culture because they think it is oppressive. The > yardstick being the western culture. I am not condoning what Moswati > is doing but I would like to know what processes need to be put in > place to challenge abusive, insulting practices. Do we for example > take stock of all those practices that we think > perpetuate violence against women? and then decide and agree how we > are going to change them? Who does this for us? In my Xhosa culture > there are indeed practices that are demeaning, and cause a lot of > hardship for women. > How do we attend to this. > > Salani ngoxolo > The JJ > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: lindiwe nkutha > To: research ; > Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 10:59 AM > Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > > > > Hi again > > > > Interestingly as we talk about culture we begin to challaenge our > > own beliefs on what constitutes culture as well as how we understand > > the workings of it. Critical to this realisation is our > > understanding and appreciation of how culture is passed on from > > generation to generation, entrenching positions of indivduals and > > setting precedents that future genarations will follow often times > > unquestioned. > > > > Bakari raises properly the predicament of chicken and egg where > > culture is concerned, and so we ask, in the formation of society and > > the negotiation > of > > indivual identities which takes more precedent, the indivual make up > > of members of communities or the culture into which they are born? > > And this > is > > the real quanandram! > > > > If we agree that culture exists for amongst other reasons as a > > tempalte on which our own indivual identities are formed, we agree > > also that gender roles are difined in culture; the man as hunter, > > gatherer and aggressor > and > > woman as surbesvient receipient of caring, nurtiring etc etc are > entrenched > > also in culture (and not just African cultures, just about all > > cultures in fact). So that we base our understanding of the > > situation in Swaziland on this premise, and begin to realise that > > from generation to generation, > women > > in Swaziland would gather for the reed dance, half naked or almost > entirely > > completely naked as Bakari says, is no co-incidence, it is done > > because it is a practice that fore ancestors engaged in as part of > > their cultural expression ( to what end now, is what we have to > > grapple with) . > > > > As a by the way as on my way to my point, I need to say, Swazi > > people and in fact most cultures in Southern Africa did not wear > > anything much before we were introduced to a western way of > > dressing...part of our colonisation...essentially "nudity" was for > > us never a tabooo. The comment on nudity reflects how the western > > way of being have influenced how we see ourselves. > > > > Having said that and getting back on course to my point, I need to > > repeat what I said yesterday, which Columbus picked up on also, that > > "customs and culture can be used to further gains of individuals". > > The genesis of the reed dance a Swazi friend informs me, was for > > the Queen mother, never a parade for the king to choose his wives. > > It was for the queen mother to choose for herself maidens that would > > help her in her homestead . The > "king" > > has now appropriated this tradition for himself and has turned it > > into a peep show for himself (re-entrenching women's positions as > > objects of gaze...for the titilation of his own self). Is it then > > the practice itself that is wrong or is the "reason" for its > > continuance that is oppressive? > and > > this is the point of this discussion I mantain. Bakari says women in > > Swaziland ecxept for my namesake Dlamini agree with the culture and > customs. > > This statement is not entirely wrong, because if they did not no > > woman would send their daughters to the reed dance, and as > > westernised as we > have > > become mothers in Swaziland would ensure that if their daughters > > went they were fully clothed and so on and so on. > > > > But why do women continue to send their children? Because women are > > in > most > > cases the custodians of culture, and if we all agree that culture in > > the wrong hands can be oppressive we begin to appreciate how women > > remaining oblivious to their oppression can serve the interests of > > those who seek to keep them oppressed. And right here is where I > > agree fully with Bakari, knowldge is power! Knowledge and > > information on the basis of which change can be negotiated both at > > an individual and community level has been > witheld > > for far too long from women. Unless and until women conscientize one > another > > or are conscientized to a different reality, such abuses as we see > > in Swaziland will continue. Because culture is not static, and is > > ever changing, what will begin to happen is that together, as women > > and men we will begin to build a new culture that defines aptly who > > we want to be. Unless that happens (not only in Swaziland) but the > > world over women will appear and in fact may just continue to > > collude in their own oppression. > > > > Oh dear I'm afraid I have gone on and on...apologies Alice for the > > lenght > of > > this, but I guess what I was trying to say in a very round about > > way is > (i) > > culture is not static and is capable of being changed by individuals > > (ii) women need to be empowred to begin to see the world differently > > so they contribute meaningfully to processses that shape their > > lives, including > the > > shaping of culture. > > > > Until next time > > > > Lindiwe Nkutha > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "bakari machumu" > > To: "lindiwe nkutha" ; "research" > > ; > > Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 6:02 PM > > Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > > > > > > > Hi to all, > > > This is kind of a tricky situation where one get > > > confused on a situation like a chick and egg, what > > > comes first. Can't demacate clearly that, from this > > > point on, human rights begins. I think if we are to go > > > on with this culture, custom and tradition thing, then > > > it should be under equal applications for both Men and Women. But > > > do women as women know their right in Swaziland, i mean with the > > > exception of Lindiwe Dlaminimost Swazi women, (its my guess i > > > stand to be > > > corrected) agrees with the culture, customs tradition thing > > > todate. I mean, i can't imagine them continuing parading with > > > their upper bodies and most of the under part in such neckedness, > > > that by itself keeps their minds in it.To me that, consititutes > > > negative cultural practices Now, to solve this thing, i believe on > > > agressive, consistent awareness creation.How? that is the question > > > > > > Bakari > > > Dar es Salaam > > > > > > > > > > > > --- lindiwe nkutha wrote: > > > > Hi to all > > > > > > > > Its an interesting topic isn't it'? the convergence > > > > of human rights and custom/ culture etc. Ideally > > > > these should not be mutually exclusive, me thinks. I think also > > > > that in particular, southern African customs that espouse or > > > > purport to espouse the principle of Ubuntu should not at all > > > > have a problem with human rights. (but then again there are a > > > > lot of things I think that are not necessarily fact). My > > > > rationale is if the foundation of the concept of ubuntu which > > > > is said to recognise (albeit > > > > philosophically) that "I am because you are" is our point of > > > > departure then who I am is intrinsically linked to who you are. > > > > If you are free, so am I free, if you are oppressed, so am I > > > > oppressed, and so on and so on. > > > > > > > > But because society loves an "other", and > > > > patriarchy has worked wonders in "securing women's positions as > > > > others", patriarchy in a heavy disguise as culture has always > > > > been used as the banner under which abuses of human rights are > > > > perpetuated. So that the lines were blurred and everytime we > > > > said "I am because you are" and we were speaking as men, it > > > > almost felt natural, cultural, in line with dated customs to > > > > exclude women. In this context the speaking ""I am...."' is > > > > under patriarchy, not considered the speaking female, it is > > > > always the"speaking male and this gets termed culturally > > > > acceptable practise, but it is not. > > > > > > > > If we move form the ""ubuntu" premise, we begin to > > > > see that the marginalisation and subjugation of > > > > women is against the principle said to ground our culture. If we > > > > accept, and perhaps this is one aspect in our "evolution - > > > > culturally" that we left behind, the acceptance that the > > > > speaking "I am..." is both male and female, then within culture > > > > we begin to see that some of the things that get justified as > > > > culture are in fact not cultural, but are patriarchal practices > > > > dressed as culture. > > > > > > > > The king says he will not turn away from his > > > > cultural practices no matter what! Selectively so, > > > > he sticks to his cultural practices when it suits > > > > him, because there are benefits for him. Which is another thing > > > > about culture that is worth mentioning. More times than not the > > > > most vocal voices on the adoption of culture are those that > > > > have a vested interest in the practice at hand. An > > > > uncle who needs to "cleanse a widow" will probably > > > > be the loudest about upholding culture, even though > > > > they may be silent about other aspects of that same culture. My > > > > point being that culture can be used to advance or secure people's > > > > positions. > > > > > > > > As I sign off, I need to make it clear that I do not think that > > > > culture is all bad. No in fact I appreciate the critical > > > > position that particularly those in countries that were > > > > previously colonised are grappling with. A project of recovery > > > > of that which we were before our culture was tempered with, > > > > balanced against the reality of the now and who we define > > > > ourselves as presently as well as the challenge of self > > > > definition into the future of who we want to be. And we sit in > > > > a challenging position. The true test for all of us though (me > > > > thinks) in assessing what is acceptable as culture > > > > and what is not acceptable is whether or not the > > > > precise in any way takes away from an individual > > > > (and in turn the collective...community ...based on > > > > Ubuntu) > > > > ability to enjoy to its full extent the experience > > > > of being human. > > > > > > > > Until later > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: research > > > > To: egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > > > > Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 9:47 AM > > > > Subject: [Egemtraining] This week's discussion > > > > topic: Lets Talk!!! > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear All > > > > > > > > I am sure most of you have been itching to receive the first > > > > discussion topic and are ready to roll!!! I have been keenly > > > > waiting to start as weel. Below is the discussion topic and the > > > > question at the end of the piece. Please remember not to make > > > > your contribution too long. Just comment as briefly as possible > > > > to give others a chance to also share their opinions. Also > > > > remember to "reply to all" so that you do not share your opinion > > > > just with me but with all in the network. Happy reading and > > > > looking forward to hearing your opinions!!! > > > > > > > > > > > > Where does culture start and stop, and individual rights > > > > begin? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am sure most of us are aware of the > > > > controversial ongoing court case in Swaziland > > > > between a mother (Lindiwe Dlamini) and the King (his > > > > aides) concerning the abduction of an > > > > 18-year-old-child (Zena) Mahlangu for "royal > > > > duties". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For those who have not been following the case, > > > > the King (who is being sued through his aides, is alleged to > > > > have abducted the child from school without her mother's > > > > knowledge and consent. Lindiwe wants her child to be returned to > > > > her custody and the King has been arguing that the child is > > > > being kept at the Royal Guest House to be prepared to be > > > > the King's 10th wife. The King was quoted as saying > > > > at a press conference, "The whole issue has been > > > > blown out of proportion by those who took advantage > > > > of trying to destroy our customs and traditions". > > > > People may say whatever they want to sy but I vow to > > > > stick to our traditions, no matter what the times > > > > are. I can be blamed left and right, but the fact of > > > > the matter is that it is our culture that I should > > > > marry many wives as I can. I cannot allow myself to > > > > be forced to follow Western culture". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The controversy is generally seen as a "clash > > > > between customs and modernity". According to custom, Mswati may > > > > choose a new wife each year from among the thousands of virgins > > > > who attend the annual reed dance". Ironically Mswati last year > > > > revived a traditional ban on sex with underage girls to combat > > > > HIV/AIDS. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > After protests for the abduction of Zena and two other girls, > > > > the King fined himself a cow for breaking his own royal decree. > > > > (BBC News). He was also quoted as saying that he was prepared to > > > > pay cows as fines for selecting the three girls. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Zena's mother is challenging the alleged > > > > traditional grabbing of her daughter on the grounds that she was > > > > not consulted, did not consent and her child has been taken out > > > > of school and therefore was abducted. The King's courtiers > > > > (aides) have been arguing that the girl was not abducted but > > > > went willingly. "Everything was arranged between the King > > > > and the girl and our job was just to pick her at the > > > > agreed spot. No force was applied". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Human rights activists have been arguing that "traditionalists > > > > should stop "raping" girls in the name of culture, while royals > > > > have been insisting that Mswati's selection of Zena to be his > > > > bride is a traditional issue that must be resolved through > > > > Swazi customs and culture. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gender and human rights activists have noted that Zena is a > > > > minor child (18 years) and the abduction is a criminal offence > > > > in that it violates > > > > > > > > 1) Lindiwe Dlamini's rights to custody and guardianship over > > > > her minor child and also that; > > > > > > > > 2) Zena's rights to liberty, freedom of movement, education, > > > > choice of marriage partner, right to be a child and bodily > > > > integrity. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Most of us are, I am sure, aware that Swaziland is signatory > > > > to the SADC Declaration on Gender and Development which commits > > > > it in article (vii) to, among other things, protecting the human > > > > rights of women and children, which raises a number of > > > > concerns regarding this case. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Question for Discussion > > > > > > > > > > > > 1) Where should culture, custom and tradition > > > > stop and individual human rights begin, to ensure > > > > the > > > === message truncated === > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > Everything you'll ever need on one web page > > > from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts > > > http://uk.my.yahoo.com > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Egemtraining mailing list > > > Egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > > > http://lists.sn.apc.org/mailman/listinfo/egemtraining > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Egemtraining mailing list > > Egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > > http://lists.sn.apc.org/mailman/listinfo/egemtraining > > > > _______________________________________________ > Egemtraining mailing list > Egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > http://lists.sn.apc.org/mailman/listinfo/egemtraining > _______________________________________________ > Egemtraining mailing list > Egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > http://lists.sn.apc.org/mailman/listinfo/egemtraining > From wlsales@ilesotho.com Tue Nov 19 15:21:57 2002 From: wlsales@ilesotho.com (wlsales) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 17:21:57 +0200 Subject: [Egemtraining] Lets talk!! References: <010401c28a53$e70aab70$0e00a8c0@ALICEK> <023201c28a59$5dbfd290$b300aac0@Barbara> Message-ID: <001c01c28fdf$7c8a1ba0$0201a8c0@keiso> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C28FF0.298C9FC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Alice, We were away the whole of last week, I11- 17th November. However I = received your initial letter dated 8th November not the course outline. = I am interested in joining in but I do not know the rules. However I = received all the mail and I am in undated and would like to join in the = discussions! Good work please get to me soonest Keiso ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Barbara Lopi=20 To: research ; egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org=20 Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 4:39 PM Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Lets talk!! Sorry Alice it was a heavy day. YES i received the course outline. B ----- Original Message -----=20 From: research=20 To: egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org=20 Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 4:00 PM Subject: [Egemtraining] Lets talk!! Hie Guys Many of you are not responding to my communication. Are you = receiving my messages? I have sent the course outline this morning and = only a few people have confirmed that they have received it. What about = other colleagues? Lets talk!!!! Can you please reply TO ALL and share = your thoughts about the course outline and the ground rules, so we have = evrything set and agreed this week and next week we start on the course = content. It will be difficult for me to know if we are all connected if = soem are keeping quite. Hello Swaziland, Tanzania, Lesotho, NY: do you = have the course outline!! we havent heard from you as yet!! talk to us = guys, we need to know whether you are on-line! =20 Just remember to Reply to all so that we all get your communication = and know you are online!!! =20 Hope to hear from more of you soon! =20 Happy Tuesday =20 Alice Kwaramba ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C28FF0.298C9FC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear Alice,
 
We were away the whole of last week, = I11- 17th=20 November.  However I received your initial letter dated  8th = November=20 not the course outline.  I am interested in joining in but I do not = know=20 the rules.  However I received all the mail and I am in undated and = would=20 like to join in the discussions!  Good work please get to me=20 soonest
 
Keiso
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Barbara = Lopi
To: research ; egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org =
Sent: Tuesday, November 12, = 2002 4:39=20 PM
Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] = Lets=20 talk!!

Sorry Alice it was a heavy day. YES i = received=20 the  course outline.
B
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 research
To: egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org =
Sent: Tuesday, November 12, = 2002 4:00=20 PM
Subject: [Egemtraining] Lets=20 talk!!

Hie Guys
Many of you are not responding to = my=20 communication. Are you receiving my messages? I have sent the course = outline=20 this morning and only a few people have confirmed that they have = received=20 it. What about other colleagues? Lets talk!!!! Can you = please reply TO=20 ALL and share your thoughts about the course outline and the ground = rules,=20 so we have evrything set and agreed this week and next week we start = on the=20 course content. It will be difficult for me to know if we are all = connected=20 if soem are keeping quite. Hello Swaziland, Tanzania, Lesotho, NY: = do you=20 have the course outline!! we havent heard from you as yet!! talk to = us guys,=20 we need to know whether you are on-line!
 
Just remember to Reply to = all=20 so that we all get your communication and know you are=20 online!!!
 
Hope to hear from more of you=20 soon!
 
Happy Tuesday
 
Alice=20 Kwaramba
------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C28FF0.298C9FC0-- From motebelet@law.wits.ac.za Tue Nov 19 15:37:44 2002 From: motebelet@law.wits.ac.za (Ms Teboho Motebele) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 17:37:44 +0200 Subject: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity References: <51E0CF9C2CF499478C33F3D4FFD3763097BEC2@exchange.irex.org> Message-ID: <000c01c28fe1$9ae04dc0$83228d92@wits.ac.za> Hi to you all, Just thought I should add my 2c worth, having read all your interesting comments. I agree with Maggie that the concept of "human rights" should not be regarded as being of western origin/ influence. If we understand what human rights are i.e.that they are rights which are inalienable and apply to all human beings, because they ARE human beings, there could be no doubt that the concept of human rights should enjoy universal support. The desire to be treat my fellow human being the way I want to be treated is a fundamental principle I live by. Having said that, I do not believe that we should allow ourselves to be influenced by the west in determining what we regard as being right for us, not only as Africans but as African women. I also believe that we should not give too much credit to the Western world for having alerted us to "what is wrong " with our cultural practices. What works for the west won't necessarily work for us. It is for us to determine for ourselves what is or is not acceptable to us. It is my view and I am in agreement with Lindiwe here, that culture is not static. Culture merely represents (or should represent) public opinion at a particular point in time. It can be moulded to serve the needs of us all. By not voicing out outrage at the behaviour of the King, the women in Swaziland are sending out a wrong message...i.e. that culture as interpreted by the king, is acceptable to them. It would appear ( and I am open to correction) that women in Swaziland regard it as an honour to have one's child chosen by the king as a wife...even if she will be the 11th wife. Surely if they objected to this practice, they would not be sending their daughters to this "reed" dance. Why is that???Can we assume that these woman don't know any better? I am probably not articulating this clearly enough.Be that as it may, I hope that someone will be able to follow my train of thought. bye for now Teboho ----- Original Message ----- From: "Maggie McDonough" To: "'Jennifer Joni'" ; "research" ; Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 4:37 PM Subject: RE: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > Hello again, > > I think Jennifer raised some interesting points here, but there is one point > in particular that I would like to address -- that is, the concept of human > rights being determined by western/colonial values. I actually do not > accept that human rights is a uniquely western concept. Human rights have > been invoked by people throughout the world, both historically and > contemporaneously. Human rights formed the basis of the Non-cooperation > Movement AGAINST the British in colonial India. Human rights have formed > the basis against the authoritarian and military regimes of Europe and > Eurasia. Mass movements (e.g. for gender equality, environmental > protection, etc) have gained untold strength and sustenance from human > rights issues. The list can go on. > > Anyway, just wanted to add my two cents on this point. > > Maggie > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jennifer Joni [mailto:jonij@law.wits.ac.za] > Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 6:56 AM > To: research; egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > > > maqabane > > Interesting subject, culture and people wanting to use culture to do their > horrendous, violent deeds. There are a few issues that i always grapple > with when confronted with these questions, which I honestly believe go to > the root of who we are; I mean those of us who are expected to respect our > culture. At what point does culture stop being that which we think should be > practiced? Is this determined by the western values that have been > instilled in us since colonialism? Do we (especially in South Africa) say > that we now have a Constitution which says that conduct that is in not in > line with the vales in the Constitution, is unconstitutional. Those values > being human dignity, equality and blah blah blah. The reason I am raising > these concerns emanates from a statement made at the Racism Conference, > where one woman stated that we should be cautious of attempts by the other > -who is insistent and is forcing the people to abrogate their culture > because they think it is oppressive. The yardstick being the western > culture. I am not condoning what Moswati is doing but I would like to know > what processes need to be put in place to challenge abusive, insulting > practices. Do we for example take stock of all those practices that we think > perpetuate violence against women? and then decide and agree how we are > going to change them? Who does this for us? In my Xhosa culture there are > indeed practices that are demeaning, and cause a lot of hardship for women. > How do we attend to this. > > Salani ngoxolo > The JJ > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: lindiwe nkutha > To: research ; > Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 10:59 AM > Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > > > > Hi again > > > > Interestingly as we talk about culture we begin to challaenge our own > > beliefs on what constitutes culture as well as how we understand the > > workings of it. Critical to this realisation is our understanding and > > appreciation of how culture is passed on from generation to > > generation, entrenching positions of indivduals and setting precedents > > that future genarations will follow often times unquestioned. > > > > Bakari raises properly the predicament of chicken and egg where > > culture is concerned, and so we ask, in the formation of society and > > the negotiation > of > > indivual identities which takes more precedent, the indivual make up > > of members of communities or the culture into which they are born? And > > this > is > > the real quanandram! > > > > If we agree that culture exists for amongst other reasons as a > > tempalte on which our own indivual identities are formed, we agree > > also that gender roles are difined in culture; the man as hunter, > > gatherer and aggressor > and > > woman as surbesvient receipient of caring, nurtiring etc etc are > entrenched > > also in culture (and not just African cultures, just about all > > cultures in fact). So that we base our understanding of the situation > > in Swaziland on this premise, and begin to realise that from > > generation to generation, > women > > in Swaziland would gather for the reed dance, half naked or almost > entirely > > completely naked as Bakari says, is no co-incidence, it is done > > because it is a practice that fore ancestors engaged in as part of > > their cultural expression ( to what end now, is what we have to > > grapple with) . > > > > As a by the way as on my way to my point, I need to say, Swazi people > > and in fact most cultures in Southern Africa did not wear anything > > much before we were introduced to a western way of dressing...part of > > our colonisation...essentially "nudity" was for us never a tabooo. The > > comment on nudity reflects how the western way of being have > > influenced how we see ourselves. > > > > Having said that and getting back on course to my point, I need to > > repeat what I said yesterday, which Columbus picked up on also, that > > "customs and culture can be used to further gains of individuals". The > > genesis of the reed dance a Swazi friend informs me, was for the > > Queen mother, never a parade for the king to choose his wives. It was > > for the queen mother to choose for herself maidens that would help her > > in her homestead . The > "king" > > has now appropriated this tradition for himself and has turned it into > > a peep show for himself (re-entrenching women's positions as objects > > of gaze...for the titilation of his own self). Is it then the practice > > itself that is wrong or is the "reason" for its continuance that is > > oppressive? > and > > this is the point of this discussion I mantain. Bakari says women in > > Swaziland ecxept for my namesake Dlamini agree with the culture and > customs. > > This statement is not entirely wrong, because if they did not no > > woman would send their daughters to the reed dance, and as > > westernised as we > have > > become mothers in Swaziland would ensure that if their daughters went > > they were fully clothed and so on and so on. > > > > But why do women continue to send their children? Because women are in > most > > cases the custodians of culture, and if we all agree that culture in > > the wrong hands can be oppressive we begin to appreciate how women > > remaining oblivious to their oppression can serve the interests of > > those who seek to keep them oppressed. And right here is where I agree > > fully with Bakari, knowldge is power! Knowledge and information on the > > basis of which change can be negotiated both at an individual and > > community level has been > witheld > > for far too long from women. Unless and until women conscientize one > another > > or are conscientized to a different reality, such abuses as we see in > > Swaziland will continue. Because culture is not static, and is ever > > changing, what will begin to happen is that together, as women and > > men we will begin to build a new culture that defines aptly who we > > want to be. Unless that happens (not only in Swaziland) but the world > > over women will appear and in fact may just continue to collude in > > their own oppression. > > > > Oh dear I'm afraid I have gone on and on...apologies Alice for the > > lenght > of > > this, but I guess what I was trying to say in a very round about way > > is > (i) > > culture is not static and is capable of being changed by individuals > > (ii) women need to be empowred to begin to see the world differently > > so they contribute meaningfully to processses that shape their lives, > > including > the > > shaping of culture. > > > > Until next time > > > > Lindiwe Nkutha > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "bakari machumu" > > To: "lindiwe nkutha" ; "research" > > ; > > Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 6:02 PM > > Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > > > > > > > Hi to all, > > > This is kind of a tricky situation where one get > > > confused on a situation like a chick and egg, what > > > comes first. Can't demacate clearly that, from this > > > point on, human rights begins. I think if we are to go > > > on with this culture, custom and tradition thing, then > > > it should be under equal applications for both Men and Women. But do > > > women as women know their right in Swaziland, i mean with the > > > exception of Lindiwe Dlaminimost Swazi women, (its my guess i stand > > > to be > > > corrected) agrees with the culture, customs tradition > > > thing todate. I mean, i can't imagine them continuing parading with > > > their upper bodies and most of the under part in such neckedness, > > > that by itself keeps their minds in it.To me that, consititutes > > > negative cultural practices Now, to solve this thing, i believe on > > > agressive, consistent awareness creation.How? that is > > > the question > > > > > > Bakari > > > Dar es Salaam > > > > > > > > > > > > --- lindiwe nkutha wrote: > > > > Hi to all > > > > > > > > Its an interesting topic isn't it'? the convergence > > > > of human rights and custom/ culture etc. Ideally > > > > these should not be mutually exclusive, me thinks. I think also > > > > that in particular, southern African customs that espouse or > > > > purport to espouse the principle of Ubuntu should not at all have > > > > a problem with human rights. (but then again there are a lot > > > > of things I think that are not necessarily fact). My > > > > rationale is if the foundation of the concept of > > > > ubuntu which is said to recognise (albeit > > > > philosophically) that "I am because you are" is our > > > > point of departure then who I am is intrinsically > > > > linked to who you are. If you are free, so am I > > > > free, if you are oppressed, so am I oppressed, and > > > > so on and so on. > > > > > > > > But because society loves an "other", and > > > > patriarchy has worked wonders in "securing women's positions as > > > > others", patriarchy in a heavy disguise as culture has always been > > > > used as the banner under which abuses of human rights are > > > > perpetuated. So that the lines were blurred and everytime we said > > > > "I am because you are" and we were speaking as men, > > > > it almost felt natural, cultural, in line with dated > > > > customs to exclude women. In this context the > > > > speaking ""I am...."' is under patriarchy, not > > > > considered the speaking female, it is always > > > > the"speaking male and this gets termed culturally > > > > acceptable practise, but it is not. > > > > > > > > If we move form the ""ubuntu" premise, we begin to > > > > see that the marginalisation and subjugation of > > > > women is against the principle said to ground our culture. If we > > > > accept, and perhaps this is one aspect in our "evolution - > > > > culturally" that we left behind, the acceptance that the speaking > > > > "I am..." is both male and female, then within culture we > > > > begin to see that some of the things that get > > > > justified as culture are in fact not cultural, but > > > > are patriarchal practices dressed as culture. > > > > > > > > The king says he will not turn away from his > > > > cultural practices no matter what! Selectively so, > > > > he sticks to his cultural practices when it suits > > > > him, because there are benefits for him. Which is > > > > another thing about culture that is worth > > > > mentioning. More times than not the most vocal > > > > voices on the adoption of culture are those that > > > > have a vested interest in the practice at hand. An > > > > uncle who needs to "cleanse a widow" will probably > > > > be the loudest about upholding culture, even though > > > > they may be silent about other aspects of that same culture. My > > > > point being that culture can be used to advance or secure people's > > > > positions. > > > > > > > > As I sign off, I need to make it clear that I do not think that > > > > culture is all bad. No in fact I appreciate the critical position > > > > that particularly those in countries that were previously > > > > colonised are grappling with. A project of recovery of that > > > > which we were before our culture was tempered with, > > > > balanced against the reality of the now and who we > > > > define ourselves as presently as well as the > > > > challenge of self definition into the future of who > > > > we want to be. And we sit in a challenging > > > > position. The true test for all of us though (me > > > > thinks) in assessing what is acceptable as culture > > > > and what is not acceptable is whether or not the > > > > precise in any way takes away from an individual > > > > (and in turn the collective...community ...based on > > > > Ubuntu) > > > > ability to enjoy to its full extent the experience > > > > of being human. > > > > > > > > Until later > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: research > > > > To: egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > > > > Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 9:47 AM > > > > Subject: [Egemtraining] This week's discussion > > > > topic: Lets Talk!!! > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear All > > > > > > > > I am sure most of you have been itching to receive > > > > the first discussion topic and are ready to roll!!! > > > > I have been keenly waiting to start as weel. Below > > > > is the discussion topic and the question at the end > > > > of the piece. Please remember not to make your contribution too > > > > long. Just comment as briefly as possible to give others a chance > > > > to also share their opinions. Also remember to "reply to all" so > > > > that you do not share your opinion just with me but with > > > > all in the network. Happy reading and looking > > > > forward to hearing your opinions!!! > > > > > > > > > > > > Where does culture start and stop, and individual rights begin? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am sure most of us are aware of the > > > > controversial ongoing court case in Swaziland > > > > between a mother (Lindiwe Dlamini) and the King (his > > > > aides) concerning the abduction of an > > > > 18-year-old-child (Zena) Mahlangu for "royal > > > > duties". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For those who have not been following the case, > > > > the King (who is being sued through his aides, is > > > > alleged to have abducted the child from school > > > > without her mother's knowledge and consent. Lindiwe > > > > wants her child to be returned to her custody and > > > > the King has been arguing that the child is being > > > > kept at the Royal Guest House to be prepared to be > > > > the King's 10th wife. The King was quoted as saying > > > > at a press conference, "The whole issue has been > > > > blown out of proportion by those who took advantage > > > > of trying to destroy our customs and traditions". > > > > People may say whatever they want to sy but I vow to > > > > stick to our traditions, no matter what the times > > > > are. I can be blamed left and right, but the fact of > > > > the matter is that it is our culture that I should > > > > marry many wives as I can. I cannot allow myself to > > > > be forced to follow Western culture". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The controversy is generally seen as a "clash > > > > between customs and modernity". According to custom, > > > > Mswati may choose a new wife each year from among > > > > the thousands of virgins who attend the annual reed > > > > dance". Ironically Mswati last year revived a > > > > traditional ban on sex with underage girls to combat > > > > HIV/AIDS. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > After protests for the abduction of Zena and two > > > > other girls, the King fined himself a cow for > > > > breaking his own royal decree. (BBC News). He was > > > > also quoted as saying that he was prepared to pay > > > > cows as fines for selecting the three girls. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Zena's mother is challenging the alleged > > > > traditional grabbing of her daughter on the grounds > > > > that she was not consulted, did not consent and her > > > > child has been taken out of school and therefore was > > > > abducted. The King's courtiers (aides) have been > > > > arguing that the girl was not abducted but went > > > > willingly. "Everything was arranged between the King > > > > and the girl and our job was just to pick her at the > > > > agreed spot. No force was applied". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Human rights activists have been arguing that > > > > "traditionalists should stop "raping" girls in the > > > > name of culture, while royals have been insisting > > > > that Mswati's selection of Zena to be his bride is a > > > > traditional issue that must be resolved through > > > > Swazi customs and culture. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gender and human rights activists have noted that > > > > Zena is a minor child (18 years) and the abduction > > > > is a criminal offence in that it violates > > > > > > > > 1) Lindiwe Dlamini's rights to custody and > > > > guardianship over her minor child and also that; > > > > > > > > 2) Zena's rights to liberty, freedom of movement, > > > > education, choice of marriage partner, right to be a > > > > child and bodily integrity. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Most of us are, I am sure, aware that Swaziland is > > > > signatory to the SADC Declaration on Gender and > > > > Development which commits it in article (vii) to, > > > > among other things, protecting the human rights of > > > > women and children, which raises a number of > > > > concerns regarding this case. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Question for Discussion > > > > > > > > > > > > 1) Where should culture, custom and tradition > > > > stop and individual human rights begin, to ensure > > > > the > > > === message truncated === > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > Everything you'll ever need on one web page > > > from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts > > > http://uk.my.yahoo.com > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Egemtraining mailing list > > > Egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > > > http://lists.sn.apc.org/mailman/listinfo/egemtraining > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Egemtraining mailing list > > Egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > > http://lists.sn.apc.org/mailman/listinfo/egemtraining > > > > _______________________________________________ > Egemtraining mailing list > Egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > http://lists.sn.apc.org/mailman/listinfo/egemtraining > _______________________________________________ > Egemtraining mailing list > Egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > http://lists.sn.apc.org/mailman/listinfo/egemtraining > From motebelet@law.wits.ac.za Tue Nov 19 15:38:01 2002 From: motebelet@law.wits.ac.za (Ms Teboho Motebele) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 17:38:01 +0200 Subject: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity References: <51E0CF9C2CF499478C33F3D4FFD3763097BEC2@exchange.irex.org> Message-ID: <000d01c28fe1$a517a900$83228d92@wits.ac.za> Hi to you all, Just thought I should add my 2c worth, having read all your interesting comments. I agree with Maggie that the concept of "human rights" should not be regarded as being of western origin/ influence. If we understand what human rights are i.e.that they are rights which are inalienable and apply to all human beings, because they ARE human beings, there could be no doubt that the concept of human rights should enjoy universal support. The desire to be treat my fellow human being the way I want to be treated is a fundamental principle I live by. Having said that, I do not believe that we should allow ourselves to be influenced by the west in determining what we regard as being right for us, not only as Africans but as African women. I also believe that we should not give too much credit to the Western world for having alerted us to "what is wrong " with our cultural practices. What works for the west won't necessarily work for us. It is for us to determine for ourselves what is or is not acceptable to us. It is my view and I am in agreement with Lindiwe here, that culture is not static. Culture merely represents (or should represent) public opinion at a particular point in time. It can be moulded to serve the needs of us all. By not voicing out outrage at the behaviour of the King, the women in Swaziland are sending out a wrong message...i.e. that culture as interpreted by the king, is acceptable to them. It would appear ( and I am open to correction) that women in Swaziland regard it as an honour to have one's child chosen by the king as a wife...even if she will be the 11th wife. Surely if they objected to this practice, they would not be sending their daughters to this "reed" dance. Why is that???Can we assume that these woman don't know any better? I am probably not articulating this clearly enough.Be that as it may, I hope that someone will be able to follow my train of thought. bye for now Teboho ----- Original Message ----- From: "Maggie McDonough" To: "'Jennifer Joni'" ; "research" ; Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 4:37 PM Subject: RE: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > Hello again, > > I think Jennifer raised some interesting points here, but there is one point > in particular that I would like to address -- that is, the concept of human > rights being determined by western/colonial values. I actually do not > accept that human rights is a uniquely western concept. Human rights have > been invoked by people throughout the world, both historically and > contemporaneously. Human rights formed the basis of the Non-cooperation > Movement AGAINST the British in colonial India. Human rights have formed > the basis against the authoritarian and military regimes of Europe and > Eurasia. Mass movements (e.g. for gender equality, environmental > protection, etc) have gained untold strength and sustenance from human > rights issues. The list can go on. > > Anyway, just wanted to add my two cents on this point. > > Maggie > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jennifer Joni [mailto:jonij@law.wits.ac.za] > Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 6:56 AM > To: research; egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > > > maqabane > > Interesting subject, culture and people wanting to use culture to do their > horrendous, violent deeds. There are a few issues that i always grapple > with when confronted with these questions, which I honestly believe go to > the root of who we are; I mean those of us who are expected to respect our > culture. At what point does culture stop being that which we think should be > practiced? Is this determined by the western values that have been > instilled in us since colonialism? Do we (especially in South Africa) say > that we now have a Constitution which says that conduct that is in not in > line with the vales in the Constitution, is unconstitutional. Those values > being human dignity, equality and blah blah blah. The reason I am raising > these concerns emanates from a statement made at the Racism Conference, > where one woman stated that we should be cautious of attempts by the other > -who is insistent and is forcing the people to abrogate their culture > because they think it is oppressive. The yardstick being the western > culture. I am not condoning what Moswati is doing but I would like to know > what processes need to be put in place to challenge abusive, insulting > practices. Do we for example take stock of all those practices that we think > perpetuate violence against women? and then decide and agree how we are > going to change them? Who does this for us? In my Xhosa culture there are > indeed practices that are demeaning, and cause a lot of hardship for women. > How do we attend to this. > > Salani ngoxolo > The JJ > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: lindiwe nkutha > To: research ; > Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 10:59 AM > Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > > > > Hi again > > > > Interestingly as we talk about culture we begin to challaenge our own > > beliefs on what constitutes culture as well as how we understand the > > workings of it. Critical to this realisation is our understanding and > > appreciation of how culture is passed on from generation to > > generation, entrenching positions of indivduals and setting precedents > > that future genarations will follow often times unquestioned. > > > > Bakari raises properly the predicament of chicken and egg where > > culture is concerned, and so we ask, in the formation of society and > > the negotiation > of > > indivual identities which takes more precedent, the indivual make up > > of members of communities or the culture into which they are born? And > > this > is > > the real quanandram! > > > > If we agree that culture exists for amongst other reasons as a > > tempalte on which our own indivual identities are formed, we agree > > also that gender roles are difined in culture; the man as hunter, > > gatherer and aggressor > and > > woman as surbesvient receipient of caring, nurtiring etc etc are > entrenched > > also in culture (and not just African cultures, just about all > > cultures in fact). So that we base our understanding of the situation > > in Swaziland on this premise, and begin to realise that from > > generation to generation, > women > > in Swaziland would gather for the reed dance, half naked or almost > entirely > > completely naked as Bakari says, is no co-incidence, it is done > > because it is a practice that fore ancestors engaged in as part of > > their cultural expression ( to what end now, is what we have to > > grapple with) . > > > > As a by the way as on my way to my point, I need to say, Swazi people > > and in fact most cultures in Southern Africa did not wear anything > > much before we were introduced to a western way of dressing...part of > > our colonisation...essentially "nudity" was for us never a tabooo. The > > comment on nudity reflects how the western way of being have > > influenced how we see ourselves. > > > > Having said that and getting back on course to my point, I need to > > repeat what I said yesterday, which Columbus picked up on also, that > > "customs and culture can be used to further gains of individuals". The > > genesis of the reed dance a Swazi friend informs me, was for the > > Queen mother, never a parade for the king to choose his wives. It was > > for the queen mother to choose for herself maidens that would help her > > in her homestead . The > "king" > > has now appropriated this tradition for himself and has turned it into > > a peep show for himself (re-entrenching women's positions as objects > > of gaze...for the titilation of his own self). Is it then the practice > > itself that is wrong or is the "reason" for its continuance that is > > oppressive? > and > > this is the point of this discussion I mantain. Bakari says women in > > Swaziland ecxept for my namesake Dlamini agree with the culture and > customs. > > This statement is not entirely wrong, because if they did not no > > woman would send their daughters to the reed dance, and as > > westernised as we > have > > become mothers in Swaziland would ensure that if their daughters went > > they were fully clothed and so on and so on. > > > > But why do women continue to send their children? Because women are in > most > > cases the custodians of culture, and if we all agree that culture in > > the wrong hands can be oppressive we begin to appreciate how women > > remaining oblivious to their oppression can serve the interests of > > those who seek to keep them oppressed. And right here is where I agree > > fully with Bakari, knowldge is power! Knowledge and information on the > > basis of which change can be negotiated both at an individual and > > community level has been > witheld > > for far too long from women. Unless and until women conscientize one > another > > or are conscientized to a different reality, such abuses as we see in > > Swaziland will continue. Because culture is not static, and is ever > > changing, what will begin to happen is that together, as women and > > men we will begin to build a new culture that defines aptly who we > > want to be. Unless that happens (not only in Swaziland) but the world > > over women will appear and in fact may just continue to collude in > > their own oppression. > > > > Oh dear I'm afraid I have gone on and on...apologies Alice for the > > lenght > of > > this, but I guess what I was trying to say in a very round about way > > is > (i) > > culture is not static and is capable of being changed by individuals > > (ii) women need to be empowred to begin to see the world differently > > so they contribute meaningfully to processses that shape their lives, > > including > the > > shaping of culture. > > > > Until next time > > > > Lindiwe Nkutha > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "bakari machumu" > > To: "lindiwe nkutha" ; "research" > > ; > > Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 6:02 PM > > Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > > > > > > > Hi to all, > > > This is kind of a tricky situation where one get > > > confused on a situation like a chick and egg, what > > > comes first. Can't demacate clearly that, from this > > > point on, human rights begins. I think if we are to go > > > on with this culture, custom and tradition thing, then > > > it should be under equal applications for both Men and Women. But do > > > women as women know their right in Swaziland, i mean with the > > > exception of Lindiwe Dlaminimost Swazi women, (its my guess i stand > > > to be > > > corrected) agrees with the culture, customs tradition > > > thing todate. I mean, i can't imagine them continuing parading with > > > their upper bodies and most of the under part in such neckedness, > > > that by itself keeps their minds in it.To me that, consititutes > > > negative cultural practices Now, to solve this thing, i believe on > > > agressive, consistent awareness creation.How? that is > > > the question > > > > > > Bakari > > > Dar es Salaam > > > > > > > > > > > > --- lindiwe nkutha wrote: > > > > Hi to all > > > > > > > > Its an interesting topic isn't it'? the convergence > > > > of human rights and custom/ culture etc. Ideally > > > > these should not be mutually exclusive, me thinks. I think also > > > > that in particular, southern African customs that espouse or > > > > purport to espouse the principle of Ubuntu should not at all have > > > > a problem with human rights. (but then again there are a lot > > > > of things I think that are not necessarily fact). My > > > > rationale is if the foundation of the concept of > > > > ubuntu which is said to recognise (albeit > > > > philosophically) that "I am because you are" is our > > > > point of departure then who I am is intrinsically > > > > linked to who you are. If you are free, so am I > > > > free, if you are oppressed, so am I oppressed, and > > > > so on and so on. > > > > > > > > But because society loves an "other", and > > > > patriarchy has worked wonders in "securing women's positions as > > > > others", patriarchy in a heavy disguise as culture has always been > > > > used as the banner under which abuses of human rights are > > > > perpetuated. So that the lines were blurred and everytime we said > > > > "I am because you are" and we were speaking as men, > > > > it almost felt natural, cultural, in line with dated > > > > customs to exclude women. In this context the > > > > speaking ""I am...."' is under patriarchy, not > > > > considered the speaking female, it is always > > > > the"speaking male and this gets termed culturally > > > > acceptable practise, but it is not. > > > > > > > > If we move form the ""ubuntu" premise, we begin to > > > > see that the marginalisation and subjugation of > > > > women is against the principle said to ground our culture. If we > > > > accept, and perhaps this is one aspect in our "evolution - > > > > culturally" that we left behind, the acceptance that the speaking > > > > "I am..." is both male and female, then within culture we > > > > begin to see that some of the things that get > > > > justified as culture are in fact not cultural, but > > > > are patriarchal practices dressed as culture. > > > > > > > > The king says he will not turn away from his > > > > cultural practices no matter what! Selectively so, > > > > he sticks to his cultural practices when it suits > > > > him, because there are benefits for him. Which is > > > > another thing about culture that is worth > > > > mentioning. More times than not the most vocal > > > > voices on the adoption of culture are those that > > > > have a vested interest in the practice at hand. An > > > > uncle who needs to "cleanse a widow" will probably > > > > be the loudest about upholding culture, even though > > > > they may be silent about other aspects of that same culture. My > > > > point being that culture can be used to advance or secure people's > > > > positions. > > > > > > > > As I sign off, I need to make it clear that I do not think that > > > > culture is all bad. No in fact I appreciate the critical position > > > > that particularly those in countries that were previously > > > > colonised are grappling with. A project of recovery of that > > > > which we were before our culture was tempered with, > > > > balanced against the reality of the now and who we > > > > define ourselves as presently as well as the > > > > challenge of self definition into the future of who > > > > we want to be. And we sit in a challenging > > > > position. The true test for all of us though (me > > > > thinks) in assessing what is acceptable as culture > > > > and what is not acceptable is whether or not the > > > > precise in any way takes away from an individual > > > > (and in turn the collective...community ...based on > > > > Ubuntu) > > > > ability to enjoy to its full extent the experience > > > > of being human. > > > > > > > > Until later > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: research > > > > To: egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > > > > Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 9:47 AM > > > > Subject: [Egemtraining] This week's discussion > > > > topic: Lets Talk!!! > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear All > > > > > > > > I am sure most of you have been itching to receive > > > > the first discussion topic and are ready to roll!!! > > > > I have been keenly waiting to start as weel. Below > > > > is the discussion topic and the question at the end > > > > of the piece. Please remember not to make your contribution too > > > > long. Just comment as briefly as possible to give others a chance > > > > to also share their opinions. Also remember to "reply to all" so > > > > that you do not share your opinion just with me but with > > > > all in the network. Happy reading and looking > > > > forward to hearing your opinions!!! > > > > > > > > > > > > Where does culture start and stop, and individual rights begin? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am sure most of us are aware of the > > > > controversial ongoing court case in Swaziland > > > > between a mother (Lindiwe Dlamini) and the King (his > > > > aides) concerning the abduction of an > > > > 18-year-old-child (Zena) Mahlangu for "royal > > > > duties". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For those who have not been following the case, > > > > the King (who is being sued through his aides, is > > > > alleged to have abducted the child from school > > > > without her mother's knowledge and consent. Lindiwe > > > > wants her child to be returned to her custody and > > > > the King has been arguing that the child is being > > > > kept at the Royal Guest House to be prepared to be > > > > the King's 10th wife. The King was quoted as saying > > > > at a press conference, "The whole issue has been > > > > blown out of proportion by those who took advantage > > > > of trying to destroy our customs and traditions". > > > > People may say whatever they want to sy but I vow to > > > > stick to our traditions, no matter what the times > > > > are. I can be blamed left and right, but the fact of > > > > the matter is that it is our culture that I should > > > > marry many wives as I can. I cannot allow myself to > > > > be forced to follow Western culture". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The controversy is generally seen as a "clash > > > > between customs and modernity". According to custom, > > > > Mswati may choose a new wife each year from among > > > > the thousands of virgins who attend the annual reed > > > > dance". Ironically Mswati last year revived a > > > > traditional ban on sex with underage girls to combat > > > > HIV/AIDS. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > After protests for the abduction of Zena and two > > > > other girls, the King fined himself a cow for > > > > breaking his own royal decree. (BBC News). He was > > > > also quoted as saying that he was prepared to pay > > > > cows as fines for selecting the three girls. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Zena's mother is challenging the alleged > > > > traditional grabbing of her daughter on the grounds > > > > that she was not consulted, did not consent and her > > > > child has been taken out of school and therefore was > > > > abducted. The King's courtiers (aides) have been > > > > arguing that the girl was not abducted but went > > > > willingly. "Everything was arranged between the King > > > > and the girl and our job was just to pick her at the > > > > agreed spot. No force was applied". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Human rights activists have been arguing that > > > > "traditionalists should stop "raping" girls in the > > > > name of culture, while royals have been insisting > > > > that Mswati's selection of Zena to be his bride is a > > > > traditional issue that must be resolved through > > > > Swazi customs and culture. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gender and human rights activists have noted that > > > > Zena is a minor child (18 years) and the abduction > > > > is a criminal offence in that it violates > > > > > > > > 1) Lindiwe Dlamini's rights to custody and > > > > guardianship over her minor child and also that; > > > > > > > > 2) Zena's rights to liberty, freedom of movement, > > > > education, choice of marriage partner, right to be a > > > > child and bodily integrity. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Most of us are, I am sure, aware that Swaziland is > > > > signatory to the SADC Declaration on Gender and > > > > Development which commits it in article (vii) to, > > > > among other things, protecting the human rights of > > > > women and children, which raises a number of > > > > concerns regarding this case. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Question for Discussion > > > > > > > > > > > > 1) Where should culture, custom and tradition > > > > stop and individual human rights begin, to ensure > > > > the > > > === message truncated === > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > Everything you'll ever need on one web page > > > from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts > > > http://uk.my.yahoo.com > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Egemtraining mailing list > > > Egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > > > http://lists.sn.apc.org/mailman/listinfo/egemtraining > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Egemtraining mailing list > > Egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > > http://lists.sn.apc.org/mailman/listinfo/egemtraining > > > > _______________________________________________ > Egemtraining mailing list > Egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > http://lists.sn.apc.org/mailman/listinfo/egemtraining > _______________________________________________ > Egemtraining mailing list > Egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > http://lists.sn.apc.org/mailman/listinfo/egemtraining > From research@genderlinks.org.za Tue Nov 19 15:04:06 2002 From: research@genderlinks.org.za (research) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 17:04:06 +0200 Subject: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity References: <20021118160225.65103.qmail@web40911.mail.yahoo.com> <005501c28ee0$c72b7e10$0f00a8c0@MOTH> <001c01c28fc2$93f30580$94228d92@wits.ac.za> Message-ID: <00a101c28fdc$e84e0700$0e00a8c0@ALICEK> Dear All Where do I start!! its really getting very interesting and challenging, too!! Thanks so much to all of you who have cooked quite a number of bones of contention!! Bakari's opinion that women seem to enjoy and agree to be subjected to such cultural exploitations; Lindiwe Nkutha's view that yes, to some extent they do BUT lets also look beyond the surface and interrogate WHY they seem to accept something which does not seem to benefit them in any way, raising issues of socialization and culture as passed from generation to generation; Lindiwe Nkonyane (we really have to distinguish the Lindiwes here, otherwise we will get mixed up!!!(smile)) who raised another important issue that the way around it would be to ensure statutory and constitutional guarantees to protect women and children. A proposition made by Maggie, which I think also needs for us to further reflect on is that where culture and custom clashes with individual rights, the course to take should be to apply the basic human rights principles of non-disrimination, non-oppression and fairness and more importantly, Educating women as a priority! Maybe we can reflect a bit more on how for instance legal reforms and constitutional guarantees can turn around the situation, especially bearing in mind that most law makers in the region are indeed men (they are the majority in most Parliaments), and even where laws do exist, there does not seem to be a clear framework and mechanisms to fully implement them. For instance, King Mswati signed both the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, and the SADC Declaration on Gender and Development, both of which oblige him to protect the rights of children. To me, the issue then becomes a matter of reconciling these international instruments with customary and cultural practices, and making sure that there is a legal framework to guarantee the full implementation of the provisions of such instruments. What do others think about this?? Lets continue to talk!!!!!! Alice ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jennifer Joni" To: "research" ; Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 1:55 PM Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > maqabane > > Interesting subject, culture and people wanting to use culture to do their > horrendous, violent deeds. There are a few issues that i always grapple > with when confronted with these questions, which I honestly believe go to > the root of who we are; I mean those of us who are expected to respect our > culture. > At what point does culture stop being that which we think should be > practiced? Is this determined by the western values that have been > instilled in us since colonialism? Do we (especially in South Africa) say > that we now have a Constitution which says that conduct that is in not in > line with the vales in the Constitution, is unconstitutional. Those values > being human dignity, equality and blah blah blah. > The reason I am raising these concerns emanates from a statement made at the > Racism Conference, where one woman stated that we should be cautious of > attempts by the other -who is insistent and is forcing the people to > abrogate their culture because they think it is oppressive. The yardstick > being the western culture. > I am not condoning what Moswati is doing but I would like to know what > processes need to be put in place to challenge abusive, insulting practices. > Do we for example take stock of all those practices that we think perpetuate > violence against women? and then decide and agree how we are going to change > them? Who does this for us? > In my Xhosa culture there are indeed practices that are demeaning, and cause > a lot of hardship for women. How do we attend to this. > > Salani ngoxolo > The JJ > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: lindiwe nkutha > To: research ; > Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 10:59 AM > Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > > > > Hi again > > > > Interestingly as we talk about culture we begin to challaenge our own > > beliefs on what constitutes culture as well as how we understand the > > workings of it. Critical to this realisation is our understanding and > > appreciation of how culture is passed on from generation to generation, > > entrenching positions of indivduals and setting precedents that future > > genarations will follow often times unquestioned. > > > > Bakari raises properly the predicament of chicken and egg where culture is > > concerned, and so we ask, in the formation of society and the negotiation > of > > indivual identities which takes more precedent, the indivual make up of > > members of communities or the culture into which they are born? And this > is > > the real quanandram! > > > > If we agree that culture exists for amongst other reasons as a tempalte on > > which our own indivual identities are formed, we agree also that gender > > roles are difined in culture; the man as hunter, gatherer and aggressor > and > > woman as surbesvient receipient of caring, nurtiring etc etc are > entrenched > > also in culture (and not just African cultures, just about all cultures in > > fact). So that we base our understanding of the situation in Swaziland on > > this premise, and begin to realise that from generation to generation, > women > > in Swaziland would gather for the reed dance, half naked or almost > entirely > > completely naked as Bakari says, is no co-incidence, it is done because it > > is a practice that fore ancestors engaged in as part of their cultural > > expression ( to what end now, is what we have to grapple with) . > > > > As a by the way as on my way to my point, I need to say, Swazi people and > > in fact most cultures in Southern Africa did not wear anything much before > > we were introduced to a western way of dressing...part of our > > colonisation...essentially "nudity" was for us never a tabooo. The comment > > on nudity reflects how the western way of being have influenced how we see > > ourselves. > > > > Having said that and getting back on course to my point, I need to repeat > > what I said yesterday, which Columbus picked up on also, that "customs and > > culture can be used to further gains of individuals". The genesis of the > > reed dance a Swazi friend informs me, was for the Queen mother, never a > > parade for the king to choose his wives. It was for the queen mother to > > choose for herself maidens that would help her in her homestead . The > "king" > > has now appropriated this tradition for himself and has turned it into a > > peep show for himself (re-entrenching women's positions as objects of > > gaze...for the titilation of his own self). Is it then the practice itself > > that is wrong or is the "reason" for its continuance that is oppressive? > and > > this is the point of this discussion I mantain. Bakari says women in > > Swaziland ecxept for my namesake Dlamini agree with the culture and > customs. > > This statement is not entirely wrong, because if they did not no woman > > would send their daughters to the reed dance, and as westernised as we > have > > become mothers in Swaziland would ensure that if their daughters went they > > were fully clothed and so on and so on. > > > > But why do women continue to send their children? Because women are in > most > > cases the custodians of culture, and if we all agree that culture in the > > wrong hands can be oppressive we begin to appreciate how women remaining > > oblivious to their oppression can serve the interests of those who seek to > > keep them oppressed. And right here is where I agree fully with Bakari, > > knowldge is power! Knowledge and information on the basis of which change > > can be negotiated both at an individual and community level has been > witheld > > for far too long from women. Unless and until women conscientize one > another > > or are conscientized to a different reality, such abuses as we see in > > Swaziland will continue. Because culture is not static, and is ever > > changing, what will begin to happen is that together, as women and men we > > will begin to build a new culture that defines aptly who we want to be. > > Unless that happens (not only in Swaziland) but the world over women will > > appear and in fact may just continue to collude in their own oppression. > > > > Oh dear I'm afraid I have gone on and on...apologies Alice for the lenght > of > > this, but I guess what I was trying to say in a very round about way is > (i) > > culture is not static and is capable of being changed by individuals (ii) > > women need to be empowred to begin to see the world differently so they > > contribute meaningfully to processses that shape their lives, including > the > > shaping of culture. > > > > Until next time > > > > Lindiwe Nkutha > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "bakari machumu" > > To: "lindiwe nkutha" ; "research" > > ; > > Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 6:02 PM > > Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > > > > > > > Hi to all, > > > This is kind of a tricky situation where one get > > > confused on a situation like a chick and egg, what > > > comes first. Can't demacate clearly that, from this > > > point on, human rights begins. I think if we are to go > > > on with this culture, custom and tradition thing, then > > > it should be under equal applications for both Men and > > > Women. But do women as women know their right in > > > Swaziland, i mean with the exception of Lindiwe > > > Dlaminimost Swazi women, (its my guess i stand to be > > > corrected) agrees with the culture, customs tradition > > > thing todate. I mean, i can't imagine them continuing > > > parading with their upper bodies and most of the under > > > part in such neckedness, that by itself keeps their > > > minds in it.To me that, consititutes negative cultural > > > practices Now, to solve this thing, i believe on > > > agressive, consistent awareness creation.How? that is > > > the question > > > > > > Bakari > > > Dar es Salaam > > > > > > > > > > > > --- lindiwe nkutha wrote: > > > > Hi to all > > > > > > > > Its an interesting topic isn't it'? the convergence > > > > of human rights and custom/ culture etc. Ideally > > > > these should not be mutually exclusive, me thinks. I > > > > think also that in particular, southern African > > > > customs that espouse or purport to espouse the > > > > principle of Ubuntu should not at all have a problem > > > > with human rights. (but then again there are a lot > > > > of things I think that are not necessarily fact). My > > > > rationale is if the foundation of the concept of > > > > ubuntu which is said to recognise (albeit > > > > philosophically) that "I am because you are" is our > > > > point of departure then who I am is intrinsically > > > > linked to who you are. If you are free, so am I > > > > free, if you are oppressed, so am I oppressed, and > > > > so on and so on. > > > > > > > > But because society loves an "other", and > > > > patriarchy has worked wonders in "securing women's > > > > positions as others", patriarchy in a heavy disguise > > > > as culture has always been used as the banner under > > > > which abuses of human rights are perpetuated. So > > > > that the lines were blurred and everytime we said > > > > "I am because you are" and we were speaking as men, > > > > it almost felt natural, cultural, in line with dated > > > > customs to exclude women. In this context the > > > > speaking ""I am...."' is under patriarchy, not > > > > considered the speaking female, it is always > > > > the"speaking male and this gets termed culturally > > > > acceptable practise, but it is not. > > > > > > > > If we move form the ""ubuntu" premise, we begin to > > > > see that the marginalisation and subjugation of > > > > women is against the principle said to ground our > > > > culture. If we accept, and perhaps this is one > > > > aspect in our "evolution - culturally" that we left > > > > behind, the acceptance that the speaking "I am..." > > > > is both male and female, then within culture we > > > > begin to see that some of the things that get > > > > justified as culture are in fact not cultural, but > > > > are patriarchal practices dressed as culture. > > > > > > > > The king says he will not turn away from his > > > > cultural practices no matter what! Selectively so, > > > > he sticks to his cultural practices when it suits > > > > him, because there are benefits for him. Which is > > > > another thing about culture that is worth > > > > mentioning. More times than not the most vocal > > > > voices on the adoption of culture are those that > > > > have a vested interest in the practice at hand. An > > > > uncle who needs to "cleanse a widow" will probably > > > > be the loudest about upholding culture, even though > > > > they may be silent about other aspects of that same > > > > culture. My point being that culture can be used to > > > > advance or secure people's positions. > > > > > > > > As I sign off, I need to make it clear that I do not > > > > think that culture is all bad. No in fact I > > > > appreciate the critical position that particularly > > > > those in countries that were previously colonised > > > > are grappling with. A project of recovery of that > > > > which we were before our culture was tempered with, > > > > balanced against the reality of the now and who we > > > > define ourselves as presently as well as the > > > > challenge of self definition into the future of who > > > > we want to be. And we sit in a challenging > > > > position. The true test for all of us though (me > > > > thinks) in assessing what is acceptable as culture > > > > and what is not acceptable is whether or not the > > > > precise in any way takes away from an individual > > > > (and in turn the collective...community ...based on > > > > Ubuntu) > > > > ability to enjoy to its full extent the experience > > > > of being human. > > > > > > > > Until later > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: research > > > > To: egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > > > > Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 9:47 AM > > > > Subject: [Egemtraining] This week's discussion > > > > topic: Lets Talk!!! > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear All > > > > > > > > I am sure most of you have been itching to receive > > > > the first discussion topic and are ready to roll!!! > > > > I have been keenly waiting to start as weel. Below > > > > is the discussion topic and the question at the end > > > > of the piece. Please remember not to make your > > > > contribution too long. Just comment as briefly as > > > > possible to give others a chance to also share their > > > > opinions. Also remember to "reply to all" so that > > > > you do not share your opinion just with me but with > > > > all in the network. Happy reading and looking > > > > forward to hearing your opinions!!! > > > > > > > > > > > > Where does culture start and stop, and individual > > > > rights begin? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am sure most of us are aware of the > > > > controversial ongoing court case in Swaziland > > > > between a mother (Lindiwe Dlamini) and the King (his > > > > aides) concerning the abduction of an > > > > 18-year-old-child (Zena) Mahlangu for "royal > > > > duties". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For those who have not been following the case, > > > > the King (who is being sued through his aides, is > > > > alleged to have abducted the child from school > > > > without her mother's knowledge and consent. Lindiwe > > > > wants her child to be returned to her custody and > > > > the King has been arguing that the child is being > > > > kept at the Royal Guest House to be prepared to be > > > > the King's 10th wife. The King was quoted as saying > > > > at a press conference, "The whole issue has been > > > > blown out of proportion by those who took advantage > > > > of trying to destroy our customs and traditions". > > > > People may say whatever they want to sy but I vow to > > > > stick to our traditions, no matter what the times > > > > are. I can be blamed left and right, but the fact of > > > > the matter is that it is our culture that I should > > > > marry many wives as I can. I cannot allow myself to > > > > be forced to follow Western culture". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The controversy is generally seen as a "clash > > > > between customs and modernity". According to custom, > > > > Mswati may choose a new wife each year from among > > > > the thousands of virgins who attend the annual reed > > > > dance". Ironically Mswati last year revived a > > > > traditional ban on sex with underage girls to combat > > > > HIV/AIDS. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > After protests for the abduction of Zena and two > > > > other girls, the King fined himself a cow for > > > > breaking his own royal decree. (BBC News). He was > > > > also quoted as saying that he was prepared to pay > > > > cows as fines for selecting the three girls. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Zena's mother is challenging the alleged > > > > traditional grabbing of her daughter on the grounds > > > > that she was not consulted, did not consent and her > > > > child has been taken out of school and therefore was > > > > abducted. The King's courtiers (aides) have been > > > > arguing that the girl was not abducted but went > > > > willingly. "Everything was arranged between the King > > > > and the girl and our job was just to pick her at the > > > > agreed spot. No force was applied". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Human rights activists have been arguing that > > > > "traditionalists should stop "raping" girls in the > > > > name of culture, while royals have been insisting > > > > that Mswati's selection of Zena to be his bride is a > > > > traditional issue that must be resolved through > > > > Swazi customs and culture. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gender and human rights activists have noted that > > > > Zena is a minor child (18 years) and the abduction > > > > is a criminal offence in that it violates > > > > > > > > 1) Lindiwe Dlamini's rights to custody and > > > > guardianship over her minor child and also that; > > > > > > > > 2) Zena's rights to liberty, freedom of movement, > > > > education, choice of marriage partner, right to be a > > > > child and bodily integrity. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Most of us are, I am sure, aware that Swaziland is > > > > signatory to the SADC Declaration on Gender and > > > > Development which commits it in article (vii) to, > > > > among other things, protecting the human rights of > > > > women and children, which raises a number of > > > > concerns regarding this case. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Question for Discussion > > > > > > > > > > > > 1) Where should culture, custom and tradition > > > > stop and individual human rights begin, to ensure > > > > the > > > === message truncated === > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > Everything you'll ever need on one web page > > > from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts > > > http://uk.my.yahoo.com > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Egemtraining mailing list > > > Egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > > > http://lists.sn.apc.org/mailman/listinfo/egemtraining > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Egemtraining mailing list > > Egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > > http://lists.sn.apc.org/mailman/listinfo/egemtraining > > > From research@genderlinks.org.za Tue Nov 19 15:27:08 2002 From: research@genderlinks.org.za (research) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 17:27:08 +0200 Subject: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity References: <51E0CF9C2CF499478C33F3D4FFD3763097BEC2@exchange.irex.org> <000a01c28fdb$58cdfe60$94228d92@wits.ac.za> Message-ID: <00b401c28fe0$202e32a0$0e00a8c0@ALICEK> Dear All Sorry, i just felt I had to say something again. I think Jennifer and Maggie's contributions here again raise an importnat point, which i think I alluded to in my previous contribution about legal frameworks and constitutional provisions in the region, and this is precisely that most countries in the region have not reformed their laws and legal frameworks to reconcile them with international Human Rights instruments that they have acceded to or ratified. Maybe the question then should be do we reform the laws and frameworks to match international instruments or do we adapt and reform international instruments to fit our frameworks?? And I think this is especially important when we talk gender equality in Southern Africa, where the whole arena of decision-making is generally dominated by men! What do others think? Lets unpack it!!!! Alice ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jennifer Joni" To: "Maggie McDonough" ; "research" ; Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 4:52 PM Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > Maggie, just a pint of clarity. What I was trying to say is that we get > caught up in two situations. One is the human rights debate, which I said > is meant to determine which of our cultural values should remain, that is > does the particular custom /practice pass the constitutional scrutiny. > Second, is then the issue about western values that sometimes get used to > determine which cultural values should remain. I am not at all suggesting > an interrelation between the two concepts. > Human rights are the best thing that has ever happened to planet earth, the > question is: is using the human rights stick or constitutional arguments > relevant in I think we are all trying to uncover here? > The JJ > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Maggie McDonough > To: 'Jennifer Joni' ; research > ; > Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 4:37 PM > Subject: RE: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > > > > Hello again, > > > > I think Jennifer raised some interesting points here, but there is one > point > > in particular that I would like to address -- that is, the concept of > human > > rights being determined by western/colonial values. I actually do not > > accept that human rights is a uniquely western concept. Human rights have > > been invoked by people throughout the world, both historically and > > contemporaneously. Human rights formed the basis of the Non-cooperation > > Movement AGAINST the British in colonial India. Human rights have formed > > the basis against the authoritarian and military regimes of Europe and > > Eurasia. Mass movements (e.g. for gender equality, environmental > > protection, etc) have gained untold strength and sustenance from human > > rights issues. The list can go on. > > > > Anyway, just wanted to add my two cents on this point. > > > > Maggie > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Jennifer Joni [mailto:jonij@law.wits.ac.za] > > Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 6:56 AM > > To: research; egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > > Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > > > > > > maqabane > > > > Interesting subject, culture and people wanting to use culture to do their > > horrendous, violent deeds. There are a few issues that i always grapple > > with when confronted with these questions, which I honestly believe go to > > the root of who we are; I mean those of us who are expected to respect our > > culture. At what point does culture stop being that which we think should > be > > practiced? Is this determined by the western values that have been > > instilled in us since colonialism? Do we (especially in South Africa) say > > that we now have a Constitution which says that conduct that is in not in > > line with the vales in the Constitution, is unconstitutional. Those > values > > being human dignity, equality and blah blah blah. The reason I am raising > > these concerns emanates from a statement made at the Racism Conference, > > where one woman stated that we should be cautious of attempts by the other > > -who is insistent and is forcing the people to abrogate their culture > > because they think it is oppressive. The yardstick being the western > > culture. I am not condoning what Moswati is doing but I would like to know > > what processes need to be put in place to challenge abusive, insulting > > practices. Do we for example take stock of all those practices that we > think > > perpetuate violence against women? and then decide and agree how we are > > going to change them? Who does this for us? In my Xhosa culture there are > > indeed practices that are demeaning, and cause a lot of hardship for > women. > > How do we attend to this. > > > > Salani ngoxolo > > The JJ > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: lindiwe nkutha > > To: research ; > > > Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 10:59 AM > > Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > > > > > > > Hi again > > > > > > Interestingly as we talk about culture we begin to challaenge our own > > > beliefs on what constitutes culture as well as how we understand the > > > workings of it. Critical to this realisation is our understanding and > > > appreciation of how culture is passed on from generation to > > > generation, entrenching positions of indivduals and setting precedents > > > that future genarations will follow often times unquestioned. > > > > > > Bakari raises properly the predicament of chicken and egg where > > > culture is concerned, and so we ask, in the formation of society and > > > the negotiation > > of > > > indivual identities which takes more precedent, the indivual make up > > > of members of communities or the culture into which they are born? And > > > this > > is > > > the real quanandram! > > > > > > If we agree that culture exists for amongst other reasons as a > > > tempalte on which our own indivual identities are formed, we agree > > > also that gender roles are difined in culture; the man as hunter, > > > gatherer and aggressor > > and > > > woman as surbesvient receipient of caring, nurtiring etc etc are > > entrenched > > > also in culture (and not just African cultures, just about all > > > cultures in fact). So that we base our understanding of the situation > > > in Swaziland on this premise, and begin to realise that from > > > generation to generation, > > women > > > in Swaziland would gather for the reed dance, half naked or almost > > entirely > > > completely naked as Bakari says, is no co-incidence, it is done > > > because it is a practice that fore ancestors engaged in as part of > > > their cultural expression ( to what end now, is what we have to > > > grapple with) . > > > > > > As a by the way as on my way to my point, I need to say, Swazi people > > > and in fact most cultures in Southern Africa did not wear anything > > > much before we were introduced to a western way of dressing...part of > > > our colonisation...essentially "nudity" was for us never a tabooo. The > > > comment on nudity reflects how the western way of being have > > > influenced how we see ourselves. > > > > > > Having said that and getting back on course to my point, I need to > > > repeat what I said yesterday, which Columbus picked up on also, that > > > "customs and culture can be used to further gains of individuals". The > > > genesis of the reed dance a Swazi friend informs me, was for the > > > Queen mother, never a parade for the king to choose his wives. It was > > > for the queen mother to choose for herself maidens that would help her > > > in her homestead . The > > "king" > > > has now appropriated this tradition for himself and has turned it into > > > a peep show for himself (re-entrenching women's positions as objects > > > of gaze...for the titilation of his own self). Is it then the practice > > > itself that is wrong or is the "reason" for its continuance that is > > > oppressive? > > and > > > this is the point of this discussion I mantain. Bakari says women in > > > Swaziland ecxept for my namesake Dlamini agree with the culture and > > customs. > > > This statement is not entirely wrong, because if they did not no > > > woman would send their daughters to the reed dance, and as > > > westernised as we > > have > > > become mothers in Swaziland would ensure that if their daughters went > > > they were fully clothed and so on and so on. > > > > > > But why do women continue to send their children? Because women are in > > most > > > cases the custodians of culture, and if we all agree that culture in > > > the wrong hands can be oppressive we begin to appreciate how women > > > remaining oblivious to their oppression can serve the interests of > > > those who seek to keep them oppressed. And right here is where I agree > > > fully with Bakari, knowldge is power! Knowledge and information on the > > > basis of which change can be negotiated both at an individual and > > > community level has been > > witheld > > > for far too long from women. Unless and until women conscientize one > > another > > > or are conscientized to a different reality, such abuses as we see in > > > Swaziland will continue. Because culture is not static, and is ever > > > changing, what will begin to happen is that together, as women and > > > men we will begin to build a new culture that defines aptly who we > > > want to be. Unless that happens (not only in Swaziland) but the world > > > over women will appear and in fact may just continue to collude in > > > their own oppression. > > > > > > Oh dear I'm afraid I have gone on and on...apologies Alice for the > > > lenght > > of > > > this, but I guess what I was trying to say in a very round about way > > > is > > (i) > > > culture is not static and is capable of being changed by individuals > > > (ii) women need to be empowred to begin to see the world differently > > > so they contribute meaningfully to processses that shape their lives, > > > including > > the > > > shaping of culture. > > > > > > Until next time > > > > > > Lindiwe Nkutha > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "bakari machumu" > > > To: "lindiwe nkutha" ; "research" > > > ; > > > Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 6:02 PM > > > Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > > > > > > > > > > Hi to all, > > > > This is kind of a tricky situation where one get > > > > confused on a situation like a chick and egg, what > > > > comes first. Can't demacate clearly that, from this > > > > point on, human rights begins. I think if we are to go > > > > on with this culture, custom and tradition thing, then > > > > it should be under equal applications for both Men and Women. But do > > > > women as women know their right in Swaziland, i mean with the > > > > exception of Lindiwe Dlaminimost Swazi women, (its my guess i stand > > > > to be > > > > corrected) agrees with the culture, customs tradition > > > > thing todate. I mean, i can't imagine them continuing parading with > > > > their upper bodies and most of the under part in such neckedness, > > > > that by itself keeps their minds in it.To me that, consititutes > > > > negative cultural practices Now, to solve this thing, i believe on > > > > agressive, consistent awareness creation.How? that is > > > > the question > > > > > > > > Bakari > > > > Dar es Salaam > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- lindiwe nkutha wrote: > > > > > Hi to all > > > > > > > > > > Its an interesting topic isn't it'? the convergence > > > > > of human rights and custom/ culture etc. Ideally > > > > > these should not be mutually exclusive, me thinks. I think also > > > > > that in particular, southern African customs that espouse or > > > > > purport to espouse the principle of Ubuntu should not at all have > > > > > a problem with human rights. (but then again there are a lot > > > > > of things I think that are not necessarily fact). My > > > > > rationale is if the foundation of the concept of > > > > > ubuntu which is said to recognise (albeit > > > > > philosophically) that "I am because you are" is our > > > > > point of departure then who I am is intrinsically > > > > > linked to who you are. If you are free, so am I > > > > > free, if you are oppressed, so am I oppressed, and > > > > > so on and so on. > > > > > > > > > > But because society loves an "other", and > > > > > patriarchy has worked wonders in "securing women's positions as > > > > > others", patriarchy in a heavy disguise as culture has always been > > > > > used as the banner under which abuses of human rights are > > > > > perpetuated. So that the lines were blurred and everytime we said > > > > > "I am because you are" and we were speaking as men, > > > > > it almost felt natural, cultural, in line with dated > > > > > customs to exclude women. In this context the > > > > > speaking ""I am...."' is under patriarchy, not > > > > > considered the speaking female, it is always > > > > > the"speaking male and this gets termed culturally > > > > > acceptable practise, but it is not. > > > > > > > > > > If we move form the ""ubuntu" premise, we begin to > > > > > see that the marginalisation and subjugation of > > > > > women is against the principle said to ground our culture. If we > > > > > accept, and perhaps this is one aspect in our "evolution - > > > > > culturally" that we left behind, the acceptance that the speaking > > > > > "I am..." is both male and female, then within culture we > > > > > begin to see that some of the things that get > > > > > justified as culture are in fact not cultural, but > > > > > are patriarchal practices dressed as culture. > > > > > > > > > > The king says he will not turn away from his > > > > > cultural practices no matter what! Selectively so, > > > > > he sticks to his cultural practices when it suits > > > > > him, because there are benefits for him. Which is > > > > > another thing about culture that is worth > > > > > mentioning. More times than not the most vocal > > > > > voices on the adoption of culture are those that > > > > > have a vested interest in the practice at hand. An > > > > > uncle who needs to "cleanse a widow" will probably > > > > > be the loudest about upholding culture, even though > > > > > they may be silent about other aspects of that same culture. My > > > > > point being that culture can be used to advance or secure people's > > > > > positions. > > > > > > > > > > As I sign off, I need to make it clear that I do not think that > > > > > culture is all bad. No in fact I appreciate the critical position > > > > > that particularly those in countries that were previously > > > > > colonised are grappling with. A project of recovery of that > > > > > which we were before our culture was tempered with, > > > > > balanced against the reality of the now and who we > > > > > define ourselves as presently as well as the > > > > > challenge of self definition into the future of who > > > > > we want to be. And we sit in a challenging > > > > > position. The true test for all of us though (me > > > > > thinks) in assessing what is acceptable as culture > > > > > and what is not acceptable is whether or not the > > > > > precise in any way takes away from an individual > > > > > (and in turn the collective...community ...based on > > > > > Ubuntu) > > > > > ability to enjoy to its full extent the experience > > > > > of being human. > > > > > > > > > > Until later > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: research > > > > > To: egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > > > > > Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 9:47 AM > > > > > Subject: [Egemtraining] This week's discussion > > > > > topic: Lets Talk!!! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear All > > > > > > > > > > I am sure most of you have been itching to receive > > > > > the first discussion topic and are ready to roll!!! > > > > > I have been keenly waiting to start as weel. Below > > > > > is the discussion topic and the question at the end > > > > > of the piece. Please remember not to make your contribution too > > > > > long. Just comment as briefly as possible to give others a chance > > > > > to also share their opinions. Also remember to "reply to all" so > > > > > that you do not share your opinion just with me but with > > > > > all in the network. Happy reading and looking > > > > > forward to hearing your opinions!!! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Where does culture start and stop, and individual rights begin? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am sure most of us are aware of the > > > > > controversial ongoing court case in Swaziland > > > > > between a mother (Lindiwe Dlamini) and the King (his > > > > > aides) concerning the abduction of an > > > > > 18-year-old-child (Zena) Mahlangu for "royal > > > > > duties". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For those who have not been following the case, > > > > > the King (who is being sued through his aides, is > > > > > alleged to have abducted the child from school > > > > > without her mother's knowledge and consent. Lindiwe > > > > > wants her child to be returned to her custody and > > > > > the King has been arguing that the child is being > > > > > kept at the Royal Guest House to be prepared to be > > > > > the King's 10th wife. The King was quoted as saying > > > > > at a press conference, "The whole issue has been > > > > > blown out of proportion by those who took advantage > > > > > of trying to destroy our customs and traditions". > > > > > People may say whatever they want to sy but I vow to > > > > > stick to our traditions, no matter what the times > > > > > are. I can be blamed left and right, but the fact of > > > > > the matter is that it is our culture that I should > > > > > marry many wives as I can. I cannot allow myself to > > > > > be forced to follow Western culture". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The controversy is generally seen as a "clash > > > > > between customs and modernity". According to custom, > > > > > Mswati may choose a new wife each year from among > > > > > the thousands of virgins who attend the annual reed > > > > > dance". Ironically Mswati last year revived a > > > > > traditional ban on sex with underage girls to combat > > > > > HIV/AIDS. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > After protests for the abduction of Zena and two > > > > > other girls, the King fined himself a cow for > > > > > breaking his own royal decree. (BBC News). He was > > > > > also quoted as saying that he was prepared to pay > > > > > cows as fines for selecting the three girls. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Zena's mother is challenging the alleged > > > > > traditional grabbing of her daughter on the grounds > > > > > that she was not consulted, did not consent and her > > > > > child has been taken out of school and therefore was > > > > > abducted. The King's courtiers (aides) have been > > > > > arguing that the girl was not abducted but went > > > > > willingly. "Everything was arranged between the King > > > > > and the girl and our job was just to pick her at the > > > > > agreed spot. No force was applied". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Human rights activists have been arguing that > > > > > "traditionalists should stop "raping" girls in the > > > > > name of culture, while royals have been insisting > > > > > that Mswati's selection of Zena to be his bride is a > > > > > traditional issue that must be resolved through > > > > > Swazi customs and culture. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gender and human rights activists have noted that > > > > > Zena is a minor child (18 years) and the abduction > > > > > is a criminal offence in that it violates > > > > > > > > > > 1) Lindiwe Dlamini's rights to custody and > > > > > guardianship over her minor child and also that; > > > > > > > > > > 2) Zena's rights to liberty, freedom of movement, > > > > > education, choice of marriage partner, right to be a > > > > > child and bodily integrity. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Most of us are, I am sure, aware that Swaziland is > > > > > signatory to the SADC Declaration on Gender and > > > > > Development which commits it in article (vii) to, > > > > > among other things, protecting the human rights of > > > > > women and children, which raises a number of > > > > > concerns regarding this case. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Question for Discussion > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1) Where should culture, custom and tradition > > > > > stop and individual human rights begin, to ensure > > > > > the > > > > === message truncated === > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > > Everything you'll ever need on one web page > > > > from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts > > > > http://uk.my.yahoo.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Egemtraining mailing list > > > > Egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > > > > http://lists.sn.apc.org/mailman/listinfo/egemtraining > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Egemtraining mailing list > > > Egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > > > http://lists.sn.apc.org/mailman/listinfo/egemtraining > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Egemtraining mailing list > > Egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > > http://lists.sn.apc.org/mailman/listinfo/egemtraining > > _______________________________________________ > > Egemtraining mailing list > > Egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > > http://lists.sn.apc.org/mailman/listinfo/egemtraining > > > From research@genderlinks.org.za Tue Nov 19 12:32:26 2002 From: research@genderlinks.org.za (research) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 14:32:26 +0200 Subject: Fw: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity Message-ID: <007501c28fc7$b8483900$0e00a8c0@ALICEK> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mr T.M. Nxumalo" <118392@uniswacc.uniswa.sz> To: Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 1:18 PM Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > Well this is just one of the things that really worry us in this little kindom of > ours.The issues of culture have a way of evolvin down here to suit the powers > that be.Zena's issue is a very complex so far as the swazi traditional norms > are concerned.The introduction of UMCWASHO the tassels that r worn by > girls was to make it clear that no man is supposed to have sexual intercourse > with those girls for the next five years to curb the HIV/AIDS which the country > is confronted with. > > It is therefore very surprising to see the person who called for the > reintroductoin of this custom contradicting himself in his actions.I'm convinced > that Zena at her tender should be under her mothers care and guidence hence > her case against the kings righthand men who apparently abducted her seein > that she wouldn't be able to face the music for filing a case against the > king,who's authority is said to be only questioned by God. > > This is a really difficult situation her seein that the king has two more girls at > his disposal.It seems people just want to hide behind customs and tradition > to satisfy their lust.The times we live in do not in essence allow such primitive > ways of courting and marrying.Surely a more modern approach can be used if > the need be not that I think the king is entitled to more wives, he has more > than enough. > > Tibza nxumalo > > Swaziland > From Fr. Steve Kamanga jnr" <00c001c28e26$311b7660$0f00a8c0@MOTH> Message-ID: <03cc01c29014$263442a0$26a894d0@computer> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_03C9_01C29024.6D6EDE40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable hi to all Am bit late but I must contribute from Malawi. The topic is very = interesting. Among the many tribes in Malawi we have similar problems of = male dominance which in most cases has built a world where men who are = in power create what they distortedly call culture but behind you = realise there is a lot of selfishness and greed. Where does culture start and stop, and individual rights begin? The = answer to this question is that, culture can not start and stop for = rights to take over. Thats not possible. No. culture is there all the = time. Individual rights are also there all the time. The two must = co-exist. My argument is; culture is there because of people and in fact = they are people who form culture. It doesn't exist without people. Take = away people culture is not there. Now, people have rights and these do = not come at a point in people's lives, Rights are there in as long as = people are there. You are born with rights to learn culture. Because of = this then, it is clear culture and rights are part of the same person, = the two have to live together. One thing I see is that Culture must = promote individual rights. I agree culture is dynamic, is never static, it is always changing and = because of this then we have an obligation to now and again review our = cultures and check if they are still promoting the common good of all = the people in the culture, otherwise whatever and whenever we find in = culture against the good of people must be subject to elimination. In this case we cannot talk of a clash between culture and modernity = because what we should have as culture will not be modernity but = modified culture, a kind that suits the modern demands. I think culture must be redefined. Now because we have failed to grasp the true meaning and true qualities = of culture, many of us tend to use it to advance our unjust passions. = This is very unfortunate. In the case of the Swazi king, I feel the case is very pathetic. It is a = true testimony of what is happening in our society, using culture to = satisfy our greed. What does the king mean when he says our culture? = which culture? whose culture? Culture promotes freedom, justice and = responsibility. In the story, Zena is snatched of her freedom to be what = she wanted to be in future, she is exposed to first class brutality, no = justice, Lindiwe and the whole of her family are not allowed to exercise = their responsibility over their child, no justice. I conclude to say, culture is good and must be preserve because = exercised well, it promotes and safeguards rights but we should know = culture is always open to redefinition, modification and change to make = sure it doesn't work against human good. It shouldn't be used to oppress = others. Steve Malawi ----- Original Message -----=20 From: lindiwe nkutha=20 To: research ; egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org=20 Sent: Sunday, November 17, 2002 12:43 PM Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity=20 Hi to all =20 Its an interesting topic isn't it'? the convergence of human rights = and custom/ culture etc. Ideally these should not be mutually exclusive, = me thinks. I think also that in particular, southern African customs = that espouse or purport to espouse the principle of Ubuntu should not at = all have a problem with human rights. (but then again there are a lot of = things I think that are not necessarily fact). My rationale is if the = foundation of the concept of ubuntu which is said to recognise (albeit = philosophically) that "I am because you are" is our point of departure = then who I am is intrinsically linked to who you are. If you are free, = so am I free, if you are oppressed, so am I oppressed, and so on and so = on.=20 =20 But because society loves an "other", and patriarchy has worked = wonders in "securing women's positions as others", patriarchy in a heavy = disguise as culture has always been used as the banner under which = abuses of human rights are perpetuated. So that the lines were blurred = and everytime we said "I am because you are" and we were speaking as = men, it almost felt natural, cultural, in line with dated customs to = exclude women. In this context the speaking ""I am...."' is under = patriarchy, not considered the speaking female, it is always = the"speaking male and this gets termed culturally acceptable practise, = but it is not. =20 If we move form the ""ubuntu" premise, we begin to see that the = marginalisation and subjugation of women is against the principle said = to ground our culture. If we accept, and perhaps this is one aspect in = our "evolution - culturally" that we left behind, the acceptance that = the speaking "I am..." is both male and female, then within culture we = begin to see that some of the things that get justified as culture are = in fact not cultural, but are patriarchal practices dressed as culture. The king says he will not turn away from his cultural practices no = matter what! Selectively so, he sticks to his cultural practices when it = suits him, because there are benefits for him. Which is another thing = about culture that is worth mentioning. More times than not the most = vocal voices on the adoption of culture are those that have a vested = interest in the practice at hand. An uncle who needs to "cleanse a = widow" will probably be the loudest about upholding culture, even though = they may be silent about other aspects of that same culture. My point = being that culture can be used to advance or secure people's positions.=20 =20 As I sign off, I need to make it clear that I do not think that = culture is all bad. No in fact I appreciate the critical position that = particularly those in countries that were previously colonised are = grappling with. A project of recovery of that which we were before our = culture was tempered with, balanced against the reality of the now and = who we define ourselves as presently as well as the challenge of self = definition into the future of who we want to be. And we sit in a = challenging position. The true test for all of us though (me thinks) in = assessing what is acceptable as culture and what is not acceptable is = whether or not the precise in any way takes away from an individual (and = in turn the collective...community ...based on Ubuntu) ability to enjoy to its full extent the experience of being human. Until later=20 =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: research=20 To: egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org=20 Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 9:47 AM Subject: [Egemtraining] This week's discussion topic: Lets Talk!!! Dear All =20 I am sure most of you have been itching to receive the first = discussion topic and are ready to roll!!! I have been keenly waiting to = start as weel. Below is the discussion topic and the question at the end = of the piece. Please remember not to make your contribution too long. = Just comment as briefly as possible to give others a chance to also = share their opinions. Also remember to "reply to all" so that you do not = share your opinion just with me but with all in the network. Happy = reading and looking forward to hearing your opinions!!! =20 =20 Where does culture start and stop, and individual rights begin? =20 I am sure most of us are aware of the controversial ongoing court = case in Swaziland between a mother (Lindiwe Dlamini) and the King (his = aides) concerning the abduction of an 18-year-old-child (Zena) Mahlangu = for "royal duties".=20 =20 For those who have not been following the case, the King (who is = being sued through his aides, is alleged to have abducted the child from = school without her mother's knowledge and consent. Lindiwe wants her = child to be returned to her custody and the King has been arguing that = the child is being kept at the Royal Guest House to be prepared to be = the King's 10th wife. The King was quoted as saying at a press = conference, "The whole issue has been blown out of proportion by those = who took advantage of trying to destroy our customs and traditions". = People may say whatever they want to sy but I vow to stick to our = traditions, no matter what the times are. I can be blamed left and = right, but the fact of the matter is that it is our culture that I = should marry many wives as I can. I cannot allow myself to be forced to = follow Western culture". =20 =20 The controversy is generally seen as a "clash between customs and = modernity". According to custom, Mswati may choose a new wife each year = from among the thousands of virgins who attend the annual reed dance". = Ironically Mswati last year revived a traditional ban on sex with = underage girls to combat HIV/AIDS.=20 =20 After protests for the abduction of Zena and two other girls, the = King fined himself a cow for breaking his own royal decree. (BBC News). = He was also quoted as saying that he was prepared to pay cows as fines = for selecting the three girls.=20 =20 Zena's mother is challenging the alleged traditional grabbing of her = daughter on the grounds that she was not consulted, did not consent and = her child has been taken out of school and therefore was abducted. The = King's courtiers (aides) have been arguing that the girl was not = abducted but went willingly. "Everything was arranged between the King = and the girl and our job was just to pick her at the agreed spot. No = force was applied". =20 Human rights activists have been arguing that "traditionalists = should stop "raping" girls in the name of culture, while royals have = been insisting that Mswati's selection of Zena to be his bride is a = traditional issue that must be resolved through Swazi customs and = culture. =20 =20 Gender and human rights activists have noted that Zena is a minor = child (18 years) and the abduction is a criminal offence in that it = violates=20 1) Lindiwe Dlamini's rights to custody and guardianship over her = minor child and also that; 2) Zena's rights to liberty, freedom of movement, education, choice = of marriage partner, right to be a child and bodily integrity. =20 Most of us are, I am sure, aware that Swaziland is signatory to the = SADC Declaration on Gender and Development which commits it in article = (vii) to, among other things, protecting the human rights of women and = children, which raises a number of concerns regarding this case.=20 =20 Question for Discussion =20 =20 1) Where should culture, custom and tradition stop and = individual human rights begin, to ensure the enjoyment of these rights = especially by women? Here women are singled out because most negative = cultural practices tend to disadvantage them more than men, since in = patriarchal societies men are the ones who define culture? =20 =20 Lets Talk!!! =20 =20 =20 =20 Alice Kwaramba Senior Researcher Gender Links 1 Ernest Oppenheimer Street Lower Ground Floor Lakeside Place Bruma, 2198 Johannesburg South Africa Tel: +27 11 622 2877/7796 Fax: +27 11 622 4732 Email: alice@genderlinks.org.za research@genderlinks.org.za URL: www.genderlinks.org.za ------=_NextPart_000_03C9_01C29024.6D6EDE40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
hi to all
Am bit late but I must contribute from = Malawi. The=20 topic is very interesting. Among the many tribes in Malawi we have = similar=20 problems of male dominance which in most cases has built a world where = men who=20 are in power create what they distortedly call culture but behind you = realise=20 there is a lot of selfishness and greed.

Where does culture start = and stop,=20 and individual rights begin? The answer to this question is = that,=20 culture can not start and stop for rights to take over. Thats not = possible. No.=20 culture is there all the time. Individual rights are also there all the = time.=20 The two must co-exist. My argument is; culture is there because of = people and in=20 fact they are people who form culture. It doesn't exist without people. = Take=20 away people culture is not there. Now, people have rights and these = do not=20 come at a point in people's lives, Rights are there in as long as people = are=20 there. You are born with rights to learn culture. Because of this then, = it is=20 clear culture and rights are part of the same person, the two have to = live=20 together. One thing I see is that Culture must promote individual=20 rights.

I agree culture is dynamic, is never = static, it is=20 always changing and because of this then we have an obligation to now = and again=20 review our cultures and check if they are still promoting the common = good of all=20 the people in the culture, otherwise whatever and whenever we find in = culture=20 against the good of people must be subject to elimination.

In this case we cannot talk of a clash = between=20 culture and modernity because what we should have as culture will not be = modernity but modified culture, a kind that suits the modern = demands.

I think=20 culture must be redefined.

Now because=20 we have failed to grasp the true meaning and true qualities of culture, = many of=20 us tend to use it to advance our unjust passions. This is very = unfortunate.

In the case=20 of the Swazi king, I feel the case is very pathetic. It is a true = testimony of=20 what is happening in our society, using culture to satisfy our greed. = What does=20 the king mean when he says our culture? which culture? whose culture? = Culture=20 promotes freedom, justice and responsibility. In the story, Zena is = snatched of=20 her freedom to be what she wanted to be in future, she is exposed to = first class=20 brutality, no justice, Lindiwe and the whole of her family are not = allowed to=20 exercise their responsibility over their child, no justice.

I conclude=20 to say, culture is good and must be preserve because exercised well, it = promotes=20 and safeguards rights but we should know culture is always open to = redefinition,=20 modification and change to make sure it doesn't work against human good. = It=20 shouldn't be used to oppress others.

 

Steve

Malawi

 

 

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 lindiwe nkutha
To: research ; egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org =
Sent: Sunday, November 17, 2002 = 12:43=20 PM
Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] = Clash between=20 customs and Modernity

Hi to all
 
Its an interesting topic isn't it'? = the=20 convergence of human rights and custom/ culture etc. Ideally these = should not=20 be mutually exclusive, me thinks. I think also that in = particular,=20 southern African customs that espouse or purport to espouse the = principle=20 of Ubuntu should not at all have a problem with human rights. = (but=20 then again there are a lot of things I think that are not = necessarily=20 fact). My rationale is if the foundation of the concept of=20 ubuntu  which is said to recognise (albeit=20 philosophically) that "I am because you are" is our point of = departure=20 then who I am is intrinsically linked to who you are. If you are free, = so am I=20 free, if you are oppressed, so am I oppressed, and so on and so on.=20
 
But  because society loves an = "other", and=20 patriarchy  has worked wonders in "securing women's positions as = others",=20 patriarchy in a heavy disguise as culture has always been used as the = banner=20 under which abuses of human rights are perpetuated. So that the = lines=20 were blurred and everytime we said  "I am because you = are"=20 and we were speaking as men, it almost felt natural, cultural, in line = with=20 dated customs to exclude women. In this context the speaking ""I = am...."'=20 is under patriarchy, not considered the speaking female, it is always=20 the"speaking male and this gets termed  culturally acceptable = practise,=20 but it is not.
 
If we move form the ""ubuntu" = premise, we begin=20 to see that the marginalisation  and subjugation of women is = against=20 the principle said to ground our culture. If we accept, and = perhaps this=20 is one aspect in our "evolution - culturally" that we left = behind, the=20 acceptance that the speaking "I am..." is both male and female, then = within=20 culture we begin to see that some of the things that get justified as = culture=20 are in fact not cultural, but are patriarchal practices dressed as=20 culture.
 
The king says he will not turn = away from his=20 cultural practices no matter what! Selectively so, he sticks to = his=20 cultural practices when it suits him, because there are benefits for = him.=20 Which is another thing about culture that is worth mentioning. More = times than=20 not the most vocal voices on the adoption of culture are those that = have a=20 vested interest in the practice at hand. An uncle who needs to = "cleanse a=20 widow" will probably be the loudest about upholding culture, even = though they=20 may be silent about other aspects of that same culture. My point being = that=20 culture can be used to advance or secure people's positions. =
 
As I sign off, I need to make it = clear that=20 I do not think that culture is all bad. No in fact I appreciate the = critical=20 position that particularly those in countries that were previously = colonised=20 are grappling with. A project of recovery of that which we were before = our=20 culture was tempered with, balanced against the reality of the now and = who we=20 define ourselves as presently as well as the challenge of self = definition into=20 the future of who we want to be.  And we sit in a challenging = position.=20 The true test for all of us though (me thinks) in assessing what is = acceptable=20 as culture and what is not acceptable is whether or not the precise in = any way=20 takes away from an individual (and in turn the collective...community = ...based=20 on Ubuntu)
ability to enjoy to its full extent=20 the experience of being human.
 
Until later 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 research
To: egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org =
Sent: Monday, November 18, = 2002 9:47=20 AM
Subject: [Egemtraining] This = week's=20 discussion topic: Lets Talk!!!

Dear All
 
I am sure most of you have been = itching to=20 receive the first discussion topic and are ready to roll!!! I have = been=20 keenly waiting to start as weel. Below is the discussion topic and = the=20 question at the end of the piece. Please remember not to make your=20 contribution too long. Just comment as briefly as possible to give = others a=20 chance to also share their opinions. Also remember to "reply to all" = so that=20 you do not share your opinion just with me but with all in the = network.=20 Happy reading and looking forward to hearing your = opinions!!!
 
 

Where does culture start and = stop, and=20 individual rights begin?

 

I am sure most of us are aware of = the=20 controversial ongoing court case in Swaziland between a mother = (Lindiwe=20 Dlamini) and the King (his aides) concerning the abduction of an=20 18-year-old-child (Zena) Mahlangu for “royal duties”. =

 

For those who have not been = following=20 the case, the King (who is being sued through his aides, is alleged = to have=20 abducted the child from school without her mother’s knowledge = and consent.=20 Lindiwe wants her child to be returned to her custody and the King = has been=20 arguing that the child is being kept at the Royal Guest House to be = prepared=20 to be the King’s 10th wife. The King was quoted as = saying at a=20 press conference, “The whole issue has been blown out of = proportion by those=20 who took advantage of trying to destroy our customs and = traditions”. People=20 may say whatever they want to sy but I vow to stick to our = traditions, no=20 matter what the times are. I can be blamed left and right, but the = fact of=20 the matter is that it is our culture that I should marry many wives = as I=20 can. I cannot allow myself to be forced to follow Western = culture”. 

 

The controversy is generally seen = as a “clash=20 between customs and modernity”. According to custom, Mswati = may choose a new=20 wife each year from among the thousands of virgins who attend the = annual=20 reed dance”. Ironically Mswati last year revived a traditional = ban on sex=20 with underage girls to combat HIV/AIDS.

 

After protests for the abduction = of Zena and=20 two other girls, the King fined himself a cow for breaking his own = royal=20 decree. (BBC News). He was also quoted as saying that he was = prepared to pay=20 cows as fines for selecting the three girls.

 

Zena’s mother is challenging = the alleged=20 traditional grabbing of her daughter on the grounds that she was not = consulted, did not consent and her child has been taken out of = school and=20 therefore was abducted. The King’s courtiers (aides) have been = arguing that=20 the girl was not abducted but went willingly. “Everything was = arranged=20 between the King and the girl and our job was just to pick her at = the agreed=20 spot. No force was applied”.

 

Human rights activists have = been arguing=20 that “traditionalists should stop “raping” girls = in the name of culture,=20 while royals have been insisting that Mswati’s selection of = Zena to be his=20 bride is a traditional issue that must be resolved through Swazi = customs and=20 culture.  =

 

Gender and human rights activists = have noted=20 that Zena is a minor child (18 years) and the abduction is a = criminal=20 offence in that it violates

1) Lindiwe Dlamini’s rights = to custody and=20 guardianship over her minor child and also that;

2) Zena’s rights to liberty, = freedom of=20 movement, education, choice of marriage partner, right to be a child = and=20 bodily integrity.

 

Most of us are, I am sure, aware = that=20 Swaziland is signatory to the SADC Declaration on Gender and = Development=20 which commits it in article (vii) to, among other things, = protecting the=20 human rights of women and children, which raises a number of = concerns=20 regarding this case.

 

Question for Discussion  

 

1)      = Where should culture, custom and tradition = stop and=20 individual human rights begin, to ensure the enjoyment of these = rights=20 especially by women? Here women are singled out because most = negative=20 cultural practices tend to disadvantage them more than men, since in = patriarchal societies men are the ones who define = culture?

 

 

 Lets = Talk!!!

 
 
 
 
Alice Kwaramba
Senior = Researcher
Gender=20 Links
1 Ernest Oppenheimer Street
Lower Ground = Floor
Lakeside=20 Place
Bruma, 2198
Johannesburg
South Africa
Tel: +27 11 = 622=20 2877/7796
Fax: +27 11 622 4732
Email: alice@genderlinks.org.za
=          =20 research@genderlinks.org.za
URL:=20 www.genderlinks.org.za<= /DIV>
------=_NextPart_000_03C9_01C29024.6D6EDE40-- From Fr. Steve Kamanga jnr" <000a01c28fdb$58cdfe60$94228d92@wits.ac.za> <00b401c28fe0$202e32a0$0e00a8c0@ALICEK> Message-ID: <03f901c29017$69286de0$26a894d0@computer> I agree our laws are not updated to suit our current environment. We are saying culture is dynamic (always changing), it follows therefore that the laws that govern, protect and enforces such a culture must also be changing/modified when culture is modified. What we see happening is we are using same laws in a very modified culture. Steve Malawi ----- Original Message ----- From: research To: Jennifer Joni ; Maggie McDonough ; Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 5:27 PM Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > Dear All > Sorry, i just felt I had to say something again. I think Jennifer and > Maggie's contributions here again raise an importnat point, which i think I > alluded to in my previous contribution about legal frameworks and > constitutional provisions in the region, and this is precisely that most > countries in the region have not reformed their laws and legal frameworks to > reconcile them with international Human Rights instruments that they have > acceded to or ratified. Maybe the question then should be do we reform the > laws and frameworks to match international instruments or do we adapt and > reform international instruments to fit our frameworks?? And I think this is > especially important when we talk gender equality in Southern Africa, where > the whole arena of decision-making is generally dominated by men! > What do others think? Lets unpack it!!!! > Alice > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jennifer Joni" > To: "Maggie McDonough" ; "research" > ; > Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 4:52 PM > Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > > > > Maggie, just a pint of clarity. What I was trying to say is that we get > > caught up in two situations. One is the human rights debate, which I said > > is meant to determine which of our cultural values should remain, that is > > does the particular custom /practice pass the constitutional scrutiny. > > Second, is then the issue about western values that sometimes get used to > > determine which cultural values should remain. I am not at all suggesting > > an interrelation between the two concepts. > > Human rights are the best thing that has ever happened to planet earth, > the > > question is: is using the human rights stick or constitutional arguments > > relevant in I think we are all trying to uncover here? > > The JJ > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Maggie McDonough > > To: 'Jennifer Joni' ; research > > ; > > Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 4:37 PM > > Subject: RE: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > > > > > > > Hello again, > > > > > > I think Jennifer raised some interesting points here, but there is one > > point > > > in particular that I would like to address -- that is, the concept of > > human > > > rights being determined by western/colonial values. I actually do not > > > accept that human rights is a uniquely western concept. Human rights > have > > > been invoked by people throughout the world, both historically and > > > contemporaneously. Human rights formed the basis of the Non-cooperation > > > Movement AGAINST the British in colonial India. Human rights have > formed > > > the basis against the authoritarian and military regimes of Europe and > > > Eurasia. Mass movements (e.g. for gender equality, environmental > > > protection, etc) have gained untold strength and sustenance from human > > > rights issues. The list can go on. > > > > > > Anyway, just wanted to add my two cents on this point. > > > > > > Maggie > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Jennifer Joni [mailto:jonij@law.wits.ac.za] > > > Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 6:56 AM > > > To: research; egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > > > Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > > > > > > > > > maqabane > > > > > > Interesting subject, culture and people wanting to use culture to do > their > > > horrendous, violent deeds. There are a few issues that i always grapple > > > with when confronted with these questions, which I honestly believe go > to > > > the root of who we are; I mean those of us who are expected to respect > our > > > culture. At what point does culture stop being that which we think > should > > be > > > practiced? Is this determined by the western values that have been > > > instilled in us since colonialism? Do we (especially in South Africa) > say > > > that we now have a Constitution which says that conduct that is in not > in > > > line with the vales in the Constitution, is unconstitutional. Those > > values > > > being human dignity, equality and blah blah blah. The reason I am > raising > > > these concerns emanates from a statement made at the Racism Conference, > > > where one woman stated that we should be cautious of attempts by the > other > > > -who is insistent and is forcing the people to abrogate their culture > > > because they think it is oppressive. The yardstick being the western > > > culture. I am not condoning what Moswati is doing but I would like to > know > > > what processes need to be put in place to challenge abusive, insulting > > > practices. Do we for example take stock of all those practices that we > > think > > > perpetuate violence against women? and then decide and agree how we are > > > going to change them? Who does this for us? In my Xhosa culture there > are > > > indeed practices that are demeaning, and cause a lot of hardship for > > women. > > > How do we attend to this. > > > > > > Salani ngoxolo > > > The JJ > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: lindiwe nkutha > > > To: research ; > > > > > Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 10:59 AM > > > Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > > > > > > > > > > Hi again > > > > > > > > Interestingly as we talk about culture we begin to challaenge our own > > > > beliefs on what constitutes culture as well as how we understand the > > > > workings of it. Critical to this realisation is our understanding and > > > > appreciation of how culture is passed on from generation to > > > > generation, entrenching positions of indivduals and setting precedents > > > > that future genarations will follow often times unquestioned. > > > > > > > > Bakari raises properly the predicament of chicken and egg where > > > > culture is concerned, and so we ask, in the formation of society and > > > > the negotiation > > > of > > > > indivual identities which takes more precedent, the indivual make up > > > > of members of communities or the culture into which they are born? And > > > > this > > > is > > > > the real quanandram! > > > > > > > > If we agree that culture exists for amongst other reasons as a > > > > tempalte on which our own indivual identities are formed, we agree > > > > also that gender roles are difined in culture; the man as hunter, > > > > gatherer and aggressor > > > and > > > > woman as surbesvient receipient of caring, nurtiring etc etc are > > > entrenched > > > > also in culture (and not just African cultures, just about all > > > > cultures in fact). So that we base our understanding of the situation > > > > in Swaziland on this premise, and begin to realise that from > > > > generation to generation, > > > women > > > > in Swaziland would gather for the reed dance, half naked or almost > > > entirely > > > > completely naked as Bakari says, is no co-incidence, it is done > > > > because it is a practice that fore ancestors engaged in as part of > > > > their cultural expression ( to what end now, is what we have to > > > > grapple with) . > > > > > > > > As a by the way as on my way to my point, I need to say, Swazi people > > > > and in fact most cultures in Southern Africa did not wear anything > > > > much before we were introduced to a western way of dressing...part of > > > > our colonisation...essentially "nudity" was for us never a tabooo. The > > > > comment on nudity reflects how the western way of being have > > > > influenced how we see ourselves. > > > > > > > > Having said that and getting back on course to my point, I need to > > > > repeat what I said yesterday, which Columbus picked up on also, that > > > > "customs and culture can be used to further gains of individuals". The > > > > genesis of the reed dance a Swazi friend informs me, was for the > > > > Queen mother, never a parade for the king to choose his wives. It was > > > > for the queen mother to choose for herself maidens that would help her > > > > in her homestead . The > > > "king" > > > > has now appropriated this tradition for himself and has turned it into > > > > a peep show for himself (re-entrenching women's positions as objects > > > > of gaze...for the titilation of his own self). Is it then the practice > > > > itself that is wrong or is the "reason" for its continuance that is > > > > oppressive? > > > and > > > > this is the point of this discussion I mantain. Bakari says women in > > > > Swaziland ecxept for my namesake Dlamini agree with the culture and > > > customs. > > > > This statement is not entirely wrong, because if they did not no > > > > woman would send their daughters to the reed dance, and as > > > > westernised as we > > > have > > > > become mothers in Swaziland would ensure that if their daughters went > > > > they were fully clothed and so on and so on. > > > > > > > > But why do women continue to send their children? Because women are in > > > most > > > > cases the custodians of culture, and if we all agree that culture in > > > > the wrong hands can be oppressive we begin to appreciate how women > > > > remaining oblivious to their oppression can serve the interests of > > > > those who seek to keep them oppressed. And right here is where I agree > > > > fully with Bakari, knowldge is power! Knowledge and information on the > > > > basis of which change can be negotiated both at an individual and > > > > community level has been > > > witheld > > > > for far too long from women. Unless and until women conscientize one > > > another > > > > or are conscientized to a different reality, such abuses as we see in > > > > Swaziland will continue. Because culture is not static, and is ever > > > > changing, what will begin to happen is that together, as women and > > > > men we will begin to build a new culture that defines aptly who we > > > > want to be. Unless that happens (not only in Swaziland) but the world > > > > over women will appear and in fact may just continue to collude in > > > > their own oppression. > > > > > > > > Oh dear I'm afraid I have gone on and on...apologies Alice for the > > > > lenght > > > of > > > > this, but I guess what I was trying to say in a very round about way > > > > is > > > (i) > > > > culture is not static and is capable of being changed by individuals > > > > (ii) women need to be empowred to begin to see the world differently > > > > so they contribute meaningfully to processses that shape their lives, > > > > including > > > the > > > > shaping of culture. > > > > > > > > Until next time > > > > > > > > Lindiwe Nkutha > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "bakari machumu" > > > > To: "lindiwe nkutha" ; "research" > > > > ; > > > > Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 6:02 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi to all, > > > > > This is kind of a tricky situation where one get > > > > > confused on a situation like a chick and egg, what > > > > > comes first. Can't demacate clearly that, from this > > > > > point on, human rights begins. I think if we are to go > > > > > on with this culture, custom and tradition thing, then > > > > > it should be under equal applications for both Men and Women. But do > > > > > women as women know their right in Swaziland, i mean with the > > > > > exception of Lindiwe Dlaminimost Swazi women, (its my guess i stand > > > > > to be > > > > > corrected) agrees with the culture, customs tradition > > > > > thing todate. I mean, i can't imagine them continuing parading with > > > > > their upper bodies and most of the under part in such neckedness, > > > > > that by itself keeps their minds in it.To me that, consititutes > > > > > negative cultural practices Now, to solve this thing, i believe on > > > > > agressive, consistent awareness creation.How? that is > > > > > the question > > > > > > > > > > Bakari > > > > > Dar es Salaam > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- lindiwe nkutha wrote: > > > > > > Hi to all > > > > > > > > > > > > Its an interesting topic isn't it'? the convergence > > > > > > of human rights and custom/ culture etc. Ideally > > > > > > these should not be mutually exclusive, me thinks. I think also > > > > > > that in particular, southern African customs that espouse or > > > > > > purport to espouse the principle of Ubuntu should not at all have > > > > > > a problem with human rights. (but then again there are a lot > > > > > > of things I think that are not necessarily fact). My > > > > > > rationale is if the foundation of the concept of > > > > > > ubuntu which is said to recognise (albeit > > > > > > philosophically) that "I am because you are" is our > > > > > > point of departure then who I am is intrinsically > > > > > > linked to who you are. If you are free, so am I > > > > > > free, if you are oppressed, so am I oppressed, and > > > > > > so on and so on. > > > > > > > > > > > > But because society loves an "other", and > > > > > > patriarchy has worked wonders in "securing women's positions as > > > > > > others", patriarchy in a heavy disguise as culture has always been > > > > > > used as the banner under which abuses of human rights are > > > > > > perpetuated. So that the lines were blurred and everytime we said > > > > > > "I am because you are" and we were speaking as men, > > > > > > it almost felt natural, cultural, in line with dated > > > > > > customs to exclude women. In this context the > > > > > > speaking ""I am...."' is under patriarchy, not > > > > > > considered the speaking female, it is always > > > > > > the"speaking male and this gets termed culturally > > > > > > acceptable practise, but it is not. > > > > > > > > > > > > If we move form the ""ubuntu" premise, we begin to > > > > > > see that the marginalisation and subjugation of > > > > > > women is against the principle said to ground our culture. If we > > > > > > accept, and perhaps this is one aspect in our "evolution - > > > > > > culturally" that we left behind, the acceptance that the speaking > > > > > > "I am..." is both male and female, then within culture we > > > > > > begin to see that some of the things that get > > > > > > justified as culture are in fact not cultural, but > > > > > > are patriarchal practices dressed as culture. > > > > > > > > > > > > The king says he will not turn away from his > > > > > > cultural practices no matter what! Selectively so, > > > > > > he sticks to his cultural practices when it suits > > > > > > him, because there are benefits for him. Which is > > > > > > another thing about culture that is worth > > > > > > mentioning. More times than not the most vocal > > > > > > voices on the adoption of culture are those that > > > > > > have a vested interest in the practice at hand. An > > > > > > uncle who needs to "cleanse a widow" will probably > > > > > > be the loudest about upholding culture, even though > > > > > > they may be silent about other aspects of that same culture. My > > > > > > point being that culture can be used to advance or secure people's > > > > > > positions. > > > > > > > > > > > > As I sign off, I need to make it clear that I do not think that > > > > > > culture is all bad. No in fact I appreciate the critical position > > > > > > that particularly those in countries that were previously > > > > > > colonised are grappling with. A project of recovery of that > > > > > > which we were before our culture was tempered with, > > > > > > balanced against the reality of the now and who we > > > > > > define ourselves as presently as well as the > > > > > > challenge of self definition into the future of who > > > > > > we want to be. And we sit in a challenging > > > > > > position. The true test for all of us though (me > > > > > > thinks) in assessing what is acceptable as culture > > > > > > and what is not acceptable is whether or not the > > > > > > precise in any way takes away from an individual > > > > > > (and in turn the collective...community ...based on > > > > > > Ubuntu) > > > > > > ability to enjoy to its full extent the experience > > > > > > of being human. > > > > > > > > > > > > Until later > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > From: research > > > > > > To: egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > > > > > > Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 9:47 AM > > > > > > Subject: [Egemtraining] This week's discussion > > > > > > topic: Lets Talk!!! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear All > > > > > > > > > > > > I am sure most of you have been itching to receive > > > > > > the first discussion topic and are ready to roll!!! > > > > > > I have been keenly waiting to start as weel. Below > > > > > > is the discussion topic and the question at the end > > > > > > of the piece. Please remember not to make your contribution too > > > > > > long. Just comment as briefly as possible to give others a chance > > > > > > to also share their opinions. Also remember to "reply to all" so > > > > > > that you do not share your opinion just with me but with > > > > > > all in the network. Happy reading and looking > > > > > > forward to hearing your opinions!!! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Where does culture start and stop, and individual rights begin? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am sure most of us are aware of the > > > > > > controversial ongoing court case in Swaziland > > > > > > between a mother (Lindiwe Dlamini) and the King (his > > > > > > aides) concerning the abduction of an > > > > > > 18-year-old-child (Zena) Mahlangu for "royal > > > > > > duties". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For those who have not been following the case, > > > > > > the King (who is being sued through his aides, is > > > > > > alleged to have abducted the child from school > > > > > > without her mother's knowledge and consent. Lindiwe > > > > > > wants her child to be returned to her custody and > > > > > > the King has been arguing that the child is being > > > > > > kept at the Royal Guest House to be prepared to be > > > > > > the King's 10th wife. The King was quoted as saying > > > > > > at a press conference, "The whole issue has been > > > > > > blown out of proportion by those who took advantage > > > > > > of trying to destroy our customs and traditions". > > > > > > People may say whatever they want to sy but I vow to > > > > > > stick to our traditions, no matter what the times > > > > > > are. I can be blamed left and right, but the fact of > > > > > > the matter is that it is our culture that I should > > > > > > marry many wives as I can. I cannot allow myself to > > > > > > be forced to follow Western culture". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The controversy is generally seen as a "clash > > > > > > between customs and modernity". According to custom, > > > > > > Mswati may choose a new wife each year from among > > > > > > the thousands of virgins who attend the annual reed > > > > > > dance". Ironically Mswati last year revived a > > > > > > traditional ban on sex with underage girls to combat > > > > > > HIV/AIDS. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > After protests for the abduction of Zena and two > > > > > > other girls, the King fined himself a cow for > > > > > > breaking his own royal decree. (BBC News). He was > > > > > > also quoted as saying that he was prepared to pay > > > > > > cows as fines for selecting the three girls. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Zena's mother is challenging the alleged > > > > > > traditional grabbing of her daughter on the grounds > > > > > > that she was not consulted, did not consent and her > > > > > > child has been taken out of school and therefore was > > > > > > abducted. The King's courtiers (aides) have been > > > > > > arguing that the girl was not abducted but went > > > > > > willingly. "Everything was arranged between the King > > > > > > and the girl and our job was just to pick her at the > > > > > > agreed spot. No force was applied". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Human rights activists have been arguing that > > > > > > "traditionalists should stop "raping" girls in the > > > > > > name of culture, while royals have been insisting > > > > > > that Mswati's selection of Zena to be his bride is a > > > > > > traditional issue that must be resolved through > > > > > > Swazi customs and culture. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gender and human rights activists have noted that > > > > > > Zena is a minor child (18 years) and the abduction > > > > > > is a criminal offence in that it violates > > > > > > > > > > > > 1) Lindiwe Dlamini's rights to custody and > > > > > > guardianship over her minor child and also that; > > > > > > > > > > > > 2) Zena's rights to liberty, freedom of movement, > > > > > > education, choice of marriage partner, right to be a > > > > > > child and bodily integrity. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Most of us are, I am sure, aware that Swaziland is > > > > > > signatory to the SADC Declaration on Gender and > > > > > > Development which commits it in article (vii) to, > > > > > > among other things, protecting the human rights of > > > > > > women and children, which raises a number of > > > > > > concerns regarding this case. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Question for Discussion > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1) Where should culture, custom and tradition > > > > > > stop and individual human rights begin, to ensure > > > > > > the > > > > > === message truncated === > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > > > Everything you'll ever need on one web page > > > > > from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts > > > > > http://uk.my.yahoo.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > Egemtraining mailing list > > > > > Egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > > > > > http://lists.sn.apc.org/mailman/listinfo/egemtraining > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Egemtraining mailing list > > > > Egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > > > > http://lists.sn.apc.org/mailman/listinfo/egemtraining > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Egemtraining mailing list > > > Egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > > > http://lists.sn.apc.org/mailman/listinfo/egemtraining > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Egemtraining mailing list > > > Egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > > > http://lists.sn.apc.org/mailman/listinfo/egemtraining > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Egemtraining mailing list > Egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > http://lists.sn.apc.org/mailman/listinfo/egemtraining From Fr. Steve Kamanga jnr" <00c001c28e26$311b7660$0f00a8c0@MOTH> <03cc01c29014$263442a0$26a894d0@computer> Message-ID: <045301c2901a$8cbf6c60$26a894d0@computer> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0450_01C2902A.C9D4FC40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable One thing to add We should change some bad aspects in our culture since culture is living = but in most cases in this part of Africa it is difficult to effect this = change because a larger percentage of the population is illiterate and = such oppressive beliefs about culture take root among the illiterate = many of which become stereotyped and believe such practices though bad = in themselves are necessary in their lives. To bring a change in the = culture we have to check and deal with the people's literacy. Steve Malawi ------=_NextPart_000_0450_01C2902A.C9D4FC40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
One thing to add
We should change some bad aspects in = our culture=20 since culture is living but in most cases in this part of Africa it is = difficult=20 to effect this change because a larger percentage of the population is=20 illiterate and such oppressive beliefs about culture take root among the = illiterate many of which become stereotyped and believe such practices = though=20 bad in themselves are necessary in their lives. To bring a change in the = culture=20 we have to check and deal with the people's literacy.
 
Steve
Malawi
------=_NextPart_000_0450_01C2902A.C9D4FC40-- From jonij@law.wits.ac.za Wed Nov 20 05:27:55 2002 From: jonij@law.wits.ac.za (Jennifer Joni) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 07:27:55 +0200 Subject: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity References: <000a01c28ed6$c05cadc0$0e00a8c0@ALICEK> <00c001c28e26$311b7660$0f00a8c0@MOTH> <03cc01c29014$263442a0$26a894d0@computer> <045301c2901a$8cbf6c60$26a894d0@computer> Message-ID: <002201c29055$9494e100$94228d92@wits.ac.za> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C29066.57F2F780 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Exactly the point. I think we need to emphasize and appreciate the fact = that we have sections in our communities who believe that culture is = 'necessary in their lives', I do too. I think this is a very sensitive = subject that needs proper negotiation and handling. We cannot deny that = culture defines who we are as a people and can therefore not be thrown = away that easily. We also should not be flattered and think we can just = turn around one morning and say we need to change culture because it is = oppressive. Oppressive it is, but also an essential part of our = existence. That's that for the JJ. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Fr. Steve Kamanga jnr=20 To: Fr. Steve Kamanga jnr ; lindiwe nkutha ; research ; = egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org=20 Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2002 12:21 AM Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity=20 One thing to add We should change some bad aspects in our culture since culture is = living but in most cases in this part of Africa it is difficult to = effect this change because a larger percentage of the population is = illiterate and such oppressive beliefs about culture take root among the = illiterate many of which become stereotyped and believe such practices = though bad in themselves are necessary in their lives. To bring a change = in the culture we have to check and deal with the people's literacy. Steve Malawi ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C29066.57F2F780 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Exactly the = point.  I think we=20 need to emphasize and appreciate the fact that we have sections in our=20 communities who believe that culture is 'necessary in their lives', = I do=20 too.  I think this is a very sensitive subject that needs proper=20 negotiation and handling.  We cannot deny that culture defines = who we=20 are as a people and can therefore not be thrown away that easily.  = We=20 also should not be flattered and think we can just turn around one = morning=20 and say we need to change culture because it is oppressive.  = Oppressive it=20 is, but also an essential part of our existence.
 
That's that for the JJ.
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Fr. Steve=20 Kamanga jnr
To: Fr. Steve=20 Kamanga jnr ; lindiwe nkutha ; research ; egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org =
Sent: Wednesday, November 20, = 2002 12:21=20 AM
Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] = Clash between=20 customs and Modernity

One thing to add
We should change some bad aspects in = our culture=20 since culture is living but in most cases in this part of Africa it is = difficult to effect this change because a larger percentage of the = population=20 is illiterate and such oppressive beliefs about culture take root = among the=20 illiterate many of which become stereotyped and believe such practices = though=20 bad in themselves are necessary in their lives. To bring a change in = the=20 culture we have to check and deal with the people's = literacy.
 
Steve
Malawi
------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C29066.57F2F780-- From lindiwe nkutha" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01EA_01C28F9C.E5EF71A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----- Original Message -----=20 From: lindiwe nkutha=20 To: research=20 Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 7:24 AM Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity=20 Dear all I think us taking this discussion to the next level is only fair. Law, = and the legal people in the group will verify if my lay person = definition is sound. Law is by definition : the principles and = regulations established in a community by some authority and applicable = to its people, whether in the form of legislation or of custom and = policies recognized and enforced by judicial decision.=20 I emphasise from this definition: established in a community by some = authority - and it has come up during this discussion, the question of = who has the power to define laws. In patriachal societies it is the men. = In our socities we seem to be in agreement that it is the men, a look at = the composition of judicial systems in the world point to the fact that = indeed it is men. Whether the communities we are looking at are our = local communities or the international community. To call for a reform = of the law in and of themselves is but one variable in this equation, = the hidden layer is "whose laws". If women continue to be left out of = processes that define rules and relugaltions that affaect their lives, = it does not matter whether we change international laws to be in harmony = with local laws, or vice versa, the people changing the laws are the = critical components to what laws we end up with. Me advocates for the a change in the way we do things, the embracing of = a more inclusionary way of doing things, so that where even intenational = clauses have obscure little comments that say something to the effect = that "this law is applicable, subject to the customs, cultural practices = and religions of given countries" women can at least know and rest = assured that even these (customs, culture, religion) are shaped and = defined by them as well as have their best interests at heart. I agree = with the vicar, there should be no starting or stopping of one for the = other to begin, individuals by the very fact of them being individuals = have the right to be treated as spelled out in the Bill of Human Rights, = anything less is abuse and should not be lauded as anything else but = should be exposed for the abuse that it actually is on both the = individual and ultimately on society. =20 Regards Lindiwe Nkutha ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "research" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 2:32 PM Subject: Fw: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity=20 >=20 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mr T.M. Nxumalo" <118392@uniswacc.uniswa.sz> > To: > Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 1:18 PM > Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity >=20 >=20 > > Well this is just one of the things that really worry us in this = little > kindom of > > ours.The issues of culture have a way of evolvin down here to suit = the > powers > > that be.Zena's issue is a very complex so far as the swazi = traditional > norms > > are concerned.The introduction of UMCWASHO the tassels that r worn = by > > girls was to make it clear that no man is supposed to have sexual > intercourse > > with those girls for the next five years to curb the HIV/AIDS which = the > country > > is confronted with. > > > > It is therefore very surprising to see the person who called for the > > reintroductoin of this custom contradicting himself in his = actions.I'm > convinced > > that Zena at her tender should be under her mothers care and = guidence > hence > > her case against the kings righthand men who apparently abducted her = seein > > that she wouldn't be able to face the music for filing a case = against the > > king,who's authority is said to be only questioned by God. > > > > This is a really difficult situation her seein that the king has two = more > girls at > > his disposal.It seems people just want to hide behind customs and > tradition > > to satisfy their lust.The times we live in do not in essence allow = such > primitive > > ways of courting and marrying.Surely a more modern approach can be = used if > > the need be not that I think the king is entitled to more wives, he = has > more > > than enough. > > > > Tibza nxumalo > > > > Swaziland > > >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Egemtraining mailing list > Egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > http://lists.sn.apc.org/mailman/listinfo/egemtraining >=20 ------=_NextPart_000_01EA_01C28F9C.E5EF71A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
----- Original Message -----=20
From: lindiwe nkutha
Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 7:24 AM
Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and = Modernity=20

Dear all
I think us taking this = discussion to the next=20 level is only fair. Law, and the legal people in the group will verify = if my lay=20 person definition is sound. Law is by definition : the principles = and=20 regulations established in a community by some authority and applicable = to its=20 people, whether in the form of legislation or of custom and policies = recognized=20 and enforced by judicial decision.
I emphasise from this definition:=20 established in a community by some = authority -  and=20 it has come up during this discussion, the question of who has the power = to=20 define laws. In patriachal societies it is the men. In our socities we = seem to=20 be in agreement that it is the men, a look at the composition of = judicial=20 systems in the world point to the fact that indeed it is men. Whether = the=20 communities we are looking at are our local communities or the = international=20 community. To call for a reform of the law in and of themselves is but = one=20 variable in this equation, the hidden layer is "whose laws". If = women=20 continue to be left out of processes that define rules and relugaltions = that=20 affaect their lives, it does not matter whether we change international = laws to=20 be in harmony with local laws, or vice versa, the people changing the = laws are=20 the critical components to what laws we end up with.
 
Me advocates for the a change in the = way we do=20 things, the embracing of a more inclusionary way of doing things, so = that where=20 even intenational clauses have obscure little comments that say = something to the=20 effect that "this law is applicable, subject to the customs, = cultural=20 practices and religions of given countries" women can at least know and = rest=20 assured that even these (customs, culture, religion) are shaped and = defined by=20 them as well as have their best interests at heart. I agree = with=20 the vicar, there should be no starting or stopping of one for = the=20 other to begin, individuals by the very fact of them being = individuals have=20 the right to be treated as spelled out in the Bill of Human Rights, = anything=20 less is abuse and should not be lauded as anything else but should be = exposed=20 for the abuse that it actually is on both the individual and ultimately = on=20 society.   
 
 
Regards
 
Lindiwe Nkutha
----- Original Message -----
From: "research" <research@genderlinks.org.za>
To: <egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 2:32=20 PM
Subject: Fw: [Egemtraining] Clash = between customs=20 and Modernity

>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mr = T.M.=20 Nxumalo" <118392@uniswacc.uniswa.sz>
>=20 To: <egemtraining-admin@lists.sn.apc.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 1:18 PM
> = Subject:=20 Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity
>
> =
>=20 > Well this is just one of the things that really worry us in this=20 little
> kindom of
> > ours.The issues of culture have a = way of=20 evolvin down here to suit the
> powers
> > that be.Zena's = issue=20 is a very complex so far as the swazi traditional
> norms
> = > are=20 concerned.The introduction of UMCWASHO the tassels that r worn = by
> >=20 girls was to make it clear that no man is supposed to have = sexual
>=20 intercourse
> > with those girls for the next five years to = curb the=20 HIV/AIDS which the
> country
> > is confronted = with.
>=20 >
> > It is therefore very surprising to see the person who = called=20 for the
> > reintroductoin of this custom contradicting himself = in his=20 actions.I'm
> convinced
> > that Zena at her tender = should be=20 under her mothers care and guidence
> hence
> > her case = against=20 the kings righthand men who apparently abducted her seein
> > = that she=20 wouldn't be able to face the music for filing a case against the
> = >=20 king,who's authority is said to be only questioned by God.
> = >
>=20 > This is a really difficult situation her seein that the king has = two=20 more
> girls at
> > his disposal.It seems people just = want to=20 hide behind customs and
> tradition
> > to satisfy their = lust.The=20 times we live in do not in essence allow such
> primitive
> = >=20 ways of courting and marrying.Surely a more modern approach can be used=20 if
> > the need be not that I think the king is entitled to = more wives,=20 he has
> more
> > than enough.
> >
> > = Tibza=20 nxumalo
> >
> > Swaziland
> >
> =
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> = Egemtraining=20 mailing list
> Egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org
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> ------=_NextPart_000_01EA_01C28F9C.E5EF71A0-- From wlsales@ilesotho.com Wed Nov 20 08:35:42 2002 From: wlsales@ilesotho.com (wlsales) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 10:35:42 +0200 Subject: [Egemtraining] Testing References: <000a01c2895a$148afc30$0e00a8c0@ALICEK> Message-ID: <000d01c2906f$e2f26060$0101a8c0@lesoff.co.za> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C29080.93C0E0A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear alice, We were away the whole of last week,11-17 Nov. I received your = letter of 8th Nov but not the course outline. I am interested in = joining in but I do not know the rules. I have howevr received all the = discussionsand would like to join in. Good work! Please get to me = soonest. Keiso ----- Original Message -----=20 From: research=20 To: egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org=20 Sent: 11 November 2002 10:12 Subject: [Egemtraining] Testing Dear Colleagues =20 Hello all! this is to test our new group which I have just set up. May = you please confirm receipt of this note so we can start the ball rolling = on the online training. I ma excited and looking forward to interesting = discussions. Hope to hear from you sonn. Please remember to REPLY TO ALL = when you respond to all this communication so that we know we are all = connected.=20 Awaiting your responses now Thanks alice=20 ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C29080.93C0E0A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear alice,
    We were away the whole of last = week,11-17=20 Nov.  I received your letter of 8th Nov but not the course = outline.  I=20 am interested in joining in but I do not know the rules. I have howevr = received=20 all the discussionsand would like to join in.  Good work! Please = get to me=20 soonest.
 
Keiso
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 research
To: egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org =
Sent: 11 November 2002 = 10:12
Subject: [Egemtraining] = Testing

Dear Colleagues
 
Hello all! this is to test our new = group which I=20 have just set up. May you please confirm receipt of this note so we = can start=20 the ball rolling on the online training. I ma excited and looking = forward to=20 interesting discussions. Hope to hear from you sonn. Please remember = to REPLY=20 TO ALL when you respond to all this communication so that we know we = are all=20 connected.
 
Awaiting your responses = now
Thanks
alice 
------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C29080.93C0E0A0-- From jbwmolemogi@yahoo.com Wed Nov 20 08:35:05 2002 From: jbwmolemogi@yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?jullian=20molemogi?=) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 08:35:05 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity In-Reply-To: <00b401c28fe0$202e32a0$0e00a8c0@ALICEK> Message-ID: <20021120083505.21420.qmail@web14807.mail.yahoo.com> --0-186609502-1037781305=:21006 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dear all having just joined in the discussion i want to agree in all honesty with maggie that indeed there is a serious clash between human rights and culture. zena represents many other girls who have fallen victims to cultural practices that perpetuate total disregard for women/girls human rights. This incident is a mirror for swazi women in particular to look thrugh themselves and question some of the cultural practices which interestingly they are at the forefront in enforcing. it can not be over emphasised that strong legal frameworks needs to be put in place as watchdogs for culprits who dress "culture" in persuit of their evil ends.a fair and uniform practice calls for a total review and reform of laws to match human rights and that is exactly what the women' organisations in this region are fighting for. whatever way we look at it this is a problem so deep rootedthat it will stay with us for a longer time for as long as the youngsters grow up internalizing the cultural norms that reinforce sexrole stereotyping. jullian research wrote:Dear All Sorry, i just felt I had to say something again. I think Jennifer and Maggie's contributions here again raise an importnat point, which i think I alluded to in my previous contribution about legal frameworks and constitutional provisions in the region, and this is precisely that most countries in the region have not reformed their laws and legal frameworks to reconcile them with international Human Rights instruments that they have acceded to or ratified. Maybe the question then should be do we reform the laws and frameworks to match international instruments or do we adapt and reform international instruments to fit our frameworks?? And I think this is especially important when we talk gender equality in Southern Africa, where the whole arena of decision-making is generally dominated by men! What do others think? Lets unpack it!!!! Alice ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jennifer Joni" To: "Maggie McDonough" ; "research" ; Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 4:52 PM Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > Maggie, just a pint of clarity. What I was trying to say is that we get > caught up in two situations. One is the human rights debate, which I said > is meant to determine which of our cultural values should remain, that is > does the particular custom /practice pass the constitutional scrutiny. > Second, is then the issue about western values that sometimes get used to > determine which cultural values should remain. I am not at all suggesting > an interrelation between the two concepts. > Human rights are the best thing that has ever happened to planet earth, the > question is: is using the human rights stick or constitutional arguments > relevant in I think we are all trying to uncover here? > The JJ > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Maggie McDonough > To: 'Jennifer Joni' ; research > ; > Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 4:37 PM > Subject: RE: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > > > > Hello again, > > > > I think Jennifer raised some interesting points here, but there is one > point > > in particular that I would like to address -- that is, the concept of > human > > rights being determined by western/colonial values. I actually do not > > accept that human rights is a uniquely western concept. Human rights have > > been invoked by people throughout the world, both historically and > > contemporaneously. Human rights formed the basis of the Non-cooperation > > Movement AGAINST the British in colonial India. Human rights have formed > > the basis against the authoritarian and military regimes of Europe and > > Eurasia. Mass movements (e.g. for gender equality, environmental > > protection, etc) have gained untold strength and sustenance from human > > rights issues. The list can go on. > > > > Anyway, just wanted to add my two cents on this point. > > > > Maggie > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Jennifer Joni [mailto:jonij@law.wits.ac.za] > > Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 6:56 AM > > To: research; egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > > Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > > > > > > maqabane > > > > Interesting subject, culture and people wanting to use culture to do their > > horrendous, violent deeds. There are a few issues that i always grapple > > with when confronted with these questions, which I honestly believe go to > > the root of who we are; I mean those of us who are expected to respect our > > culture. At what point does culture stop being that which we think should > be > > practiced? Is this determined by the western values that have been > > instilled in us since colonialism? Do we (especially in South Africa) say > > that we now have a Constitution which says that conduct that is in not in > > line with the vales in the Constitution, is unconstitutional. Those > values > > being human dignity, equality and blah blah blah. The reason I am raising > > these concerns emanates from a statement made at the Racism Conference, > > where one woman stated that we should be cautious of attempts by the other > > -who is insistent and is forcing the people to abrogate their culture > > because they think it is oppressive. The yardstick being the western > > culture. I am not condoning what Moswati is doing but I would like to know > > what processes need to be put in place to challenge abusive, insulting > > practices. Do we for example take stock of all those practices that we > think > > perpetuate violence against women? and then decide and agree how we are > > going to change them? Who does this for us? In my Xhosa culture there are > > indeed practices that are demeaning, and cause a lot of hardship for > women. > > How do we attend to this. > > > > Salani ngoxolo > > The JJ > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: lindiwe nkutha > > To: research ; > > > Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 10:59 AM > > Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > > > > > > > Hi again > > > > > > Interestingly as we talk about culture we begin to challaenge our own > > > beliefs on what constitutes culture as well as how we understand the > > > workings of it. Critical to this realisation is our understanding and > > > appreciation of how culture is passed on from generation to > > > generation, entrenching positions of indivduals and setting precedents > > > that future genarations will follow often times unquestioned. > > > > > > Bakari raises properly the predicament of chicken and egg where > > > culture is concerned, and so we ask, in the formation of society and > > > the negotiation > > of > > > indivual identities which takes more precedent, the indivual make up > > > of members of communities or the culture into which they are born? And > > > this > > is > > > the real quanandram! > > > > > > If we agree that culture exists for amongst other reasons as a > > > tempalte on which our own indivual identities are formed, we agree > > > also that gender roles are difined in culture; the man as hunter, > > > gatherer and aggressor > > and > > > woman as surbesvient receipient of caring, nurtiring etc etc are > > entrenched > > > also in culture (and not just African cultures, just about all > > > cultures in fact). So that we base our understanding of the situation > > > in Swaziland on this premise, and begin to realise that from > > > generation to generation, > > women > > > in Swaziland would gather for the reed dance, half naked or almost > > entirely > > > completely naked as Bakari says, is no co-incidence, it is done > > > because it is a practice that fore ancestors engaged in as part of > > > their cultural expression ( to what end now, is what we have to > > > grapple with) . > > > > > > As a by the way as on my way to my point, I need to say, Swazi people > > > and in fact most cultures in Southern Africa did not wear anything > > > much before we were introduced to a western way of dressing...part of > > > our colonisation...essentially "nudity" was for us never a tabooo. The > > > comment on nudity reflects how the western way of being have > > > influenced how we see ourselves. > > > > > > Having said that and getting back on course to my point, I need to > > > repeat what I said yesterday, which Columbus picked up on also, that > > > "customs and culture can be used to further gains of individuals". The > > > genesis of the reed dance a Swazi friend informs me, was for the > > > Queen mother, never a parade for the king to choose his wives. It was > > > for the queen mother to choose for herself maidens that would help her > > > in her homestead . The > > "king" > > > has now appropriated this tradition for himself and has turned it into > > > a peep show for himself (re-entrenching women's positions as objects > > > of gaze...for the titilation of his own self). Is it then the practice > > > itself that is wrong or is the "reason" for its continuance that is > > > oppressive? > > and > > > this is the point of this discussion I mantain. Bakari says women in > > > Swaziland ecxept for my namesake Dlamini agree with the culture and > > customs. > > > This statement is not entirely wrong, because if they did not no > > > woman would send their daughters to the reed dance, and as > > > westernised as we > > have > > > become mothers in Swaziland would ensure that if their daughters went > > > they were fully clothed and so on and so on. > > > > > > But why do women continue to send their children? Because women are in > > most > > > cases the custodians of culture, and if we all agree that culture in > > > the wrong hands can be oppressive we begin to appreciate how women > > > remaining oblivious to their oppression can serve the interests of > > > those who seek to keep them oppressed. And right here is where I agree > > > fully with Bakari, knowldge is power! Knowledge and information on the > > > basis of which change can be negotiated both at an individual and > > > community level has been > > witheld > > > for far too long from women. Unless and until women conscientize one > > another > > > or are conscientized to a different reality, such abuses as we see in > > > Swaziland will continue. Because culture is not static, and is ever > > > changing, what will begin to happen is that together, as women and > > > men we will begin to build a new culture that defines aptly who we > > > want to be. Unless that happens (not only in Swaziland) but the world > > > over women will appear and in fact may just continue to collude in > > > their own oppression. > > > > > > Oh dear I'm afraid I have gone on and on...apologies Alice for the > > > lenght > > of > > > this, but I guess what I was trying to say in a very round about way > > > is > > (i) > > > culture is not static and is capable of being changed by individuals > > > (ii) women need to be empowred to begin to see the world differently > > > so they contribute meaningfully to processses that shape their lives, > > > including > > the > > > shaping of culture. > > > > > > Until next time > > > > > > Lindiwe Nkutha > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "bakari machumu" > > > To: "lindiwe nkutha" ; "research" > > > ; > > > Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 6:02 PM > > > Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > > > > > > > > > > Hi to all, > > > > This is kind of a tricky situation where one get > > > > confused on a situation like a chick and egg, what > > > > comes first. Can't demacate clearly that, from this > > > > point on, human rights begins. I think if we are to go > > > > on with this culture, custom and tradition thing, then > > > > it should be under equal applications for both Men and Women. But do > > > > women as women know their right in Swaziland, i mean with the > > > > exception of Lindiwe Dlaminimost Swazi women, (its my guess i stand > > > > to be > > > > corrected) agrees with the culture, customs tradition > > > > thing todate. I mean, i can't imagine them continuing parading with > > > > their upper bodies and most of the under part in such neckedness, > > > > that by itself keeps their minds in it.To me that, consititutes > > > > negative cultural practices Now, to solve this thing, i believe on > > > > agressive, consistent awareness creation.How? that is > > > > the question > > > > > > > > Bakari > > > > Dar es Salaam > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- lindiwe nkutha wrote: > > > > > Hi to all > > > > > > > > > > Its an interesting topic isn't it'? the convergence > > > > > of human rights and custom/ culture etc. Ideally > > > > > these should not be mutually exclusive, me thinks. I think also > > > > > that in particular, southern African customs that espouse or > > > > > purport to espouse the principle of Ubuntu should not at all have > > > > > a problem with human rights. (but then again there are a lot > > > > > of things I think that are not necessarily fact). My > > > > > rationale is if the foundation of the concept of > > > > > ubuntu which is said to recognise (albeit > > > > > philosophically) that "I am because you are" is our > > > > > point of departure then who I am is intrinsically > > > > > linked to who you are. If you are free, so am I > > > > > free, if you are oppressed, so am I oppressed, and > > > > > so on and so on. > > > > > > > > > > But because society loves an "other", and > > > > > patriarchy has worked wonders in "securing women's positions as > > > > > others", patriarchy in a heavy disguise as culture has always been > > > > > used as the banner under which abuses of human rights are > > > > > perpetuated. So that the lines were blurred and everytime we said > > > > > "I am because you are" and we were speaking as men, > > > > > it almost felt natural, cultural, in line with dated > > > > > customs to exclude women. In this context the > > > > > speaking ""I am...."' is under patriarchy, not > > > > > considered the speaking female, it is always > > > > > the"speaking male and this gets termed culturally > > > > > acceptable practise, but it is not. > > > > > > > > > > If we move form the ""ubuntu" premise, we begin to > > > > > see that the marginalisation and subjugation of > > > > > women is against the principle said to ground our culture. If we > > > > > accept, and perhaps this is one aspect in our "evolution - > > > > > culturally" that we left behind, the acceptance that the speaking > > > > > "I am..." is both male and female, then within culture we > > > > > begin to see that some of the things that get > > > > > justified as culture are in fact not cultural, but > > > > > are patriarchal practices dressed as culture. > > > > > > > > > > The king says he will not turn away from his > > > > > cultural practices no matter what! Selectively so, > > > > > he sticks to his cultural practices when it suits > > > > > him, because there are benefits for him. Which is > > > > > another thing about culture that is worth > > > > > mentioning. More times than not the most vocal > > > > > voices on the adoption of culture are those that > > > > > have a vested interest in the practice at hand. An > > > > > uncle who needs to "cleanse a widow" will probably > > > > > be the loudest about upholding culture, even though > > > > > they may be silent about other aspects of that same culture. My > > > > > point being that culture can be used to advance or secure people's > > > > > positions. > > > > > > > > > > As I sign off, I need to make it clear that I do not think that > > > > > culture is all bad. No in fact I appreciate the critical position > > > > > that particularly those in countries that were previously > > > > > colonised are grappling with. A project of recovery of that > > > > > which we were before our culture was tempered with, > > > > > balanced against the reality of the now and who we > > > > > define ourselves as presently as well as the > > > > > challenge of self definition into the future of who > > > > > we want to be. And we sit in a challenging > > > > > position. The true test for all of us though (me > > > > > thinks) in assessing what is acceptable as culture > > > > > and what is not acceptable is whether or not the > > > > > precise in any way takes away from an individual > > > > > (and in turn the collective...community ...based on > > > > > Ubuntu) > > > > > ability to enjoy to its full extent the experience > > > > > of being human. > > > > > > > > > > Until later > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: research > > > > > To: egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > > > > > Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 9:47 AM > > > > > Subject: [Egemtraining] This week's discussion > > > > > topic: Lets Talk!!! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear All > > > > > > > > > > I am sure most of you have been itching to receive > > > > > the first discussion topic and are ready to roll!!! > > > > > I have been keenly waiting to start as weel. Below > > > > > is the discussion topic and the question at the end > > > > > of the piece. Please remember not to make your contribution too > > > > > long. Just comment as briefly as possible to give others a chance > > > > > to also share their opinions. Also remember to "reply to all" so > > > > > that you do not share your opinion just with me but with > > > > > all in the network. Happy reading and looking > > > > > forward to hearing your opinions!!! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Where does culture start and stop, and individual rights begin? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am sure most of us are aware of the > > > > > controversial ongoing court case in Swaziland > > > > > between a mother (Lindiwe Dlamini) and the King (his > > > > > aides) concerning the abduction of an > > > > > 18-year-old-child (Zena) Mahlangu for "royal > > > > > duties". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For those who have not been following the case, > > > > > the King (who is being sued through his aides, is > > > > > alleged to have abducted the child from school > > > > > without her mother's knowledge and consent. Lindiwe > > > > > wants her child to be returned to her custody and > > > > > the King has been arguing that the child is being > > > > > kept at the Royal Guest House to be prepared to be > > > > > the King's 10th wife. The King was quoted as saying > > > > > at a press conference, "The whole issue has been > > > > > blown out of proportion by those who took advantage > > > > > of trying to destroy our customs and traditions". > > > > > People may say whatever they want to sy but I vow to > > > > > stick to our traditions, no matter what the times > > > > > are. I can be blamed left and right, but the fact of > > > > > the matter is that it is our culture that I should > > > > > marry many wives as I can. I cannot allow myself to > > > > > be forced to follow Western culture". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The controversy is generally seen as a "clash > > > > > between customs and modernity". According to custom, > > > > > Mswati may choose a new wife each year from among > > > > > the thousands of virgins who attend the annual reed > > > > > dance". Ironically Mswati last year revived a > > > > > traditional ban on sex with underage girls to combat > > > > > HIV/AIDS. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > After protests for the abduction of Zena and two > > > > > other girls, the King fined himself a cow for > > > > > breaking his own royal decree. (BBC News). He was > > > > > also quoted as saying that he was prepared to pay > > > > > cows as fines for selecting the three girls. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Zena's mother is challenging the alleged > > > > > traditional grabbing of her daughter on the grounds > > > > > that she was not consulted, did not consent and her > > > > > child has been taken out of school and therefore was > > > > > abducted. The King's courtiers (aides) have been > > > > > arguing that the girl was not abducted but went > > > > > willingly. "Everything was arranged between the King > > > > > and the girl and our job was just to pick her at the > > > > > agreed spot. No force was applied". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Human rights activists have been arguing that > > > > > "traditionalists should stop "raping" girls in the > > > > > name of culture, while royals have been insisting > > > > > that Mswati's selection of Zena to be his bride is a > > > > > traditional issue that must be resolved through > > > > > Swazi customs and culture. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gender and human rights activists have noted that > > > > > Zena is a minor child (18 years) and the abduction > > > > > is a criminal offence in that it violates === message truncated === --------------------------------- Get a bigger mailbox -- choose a size that fits your needs. --0-186609502-1037781305=:21006 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Dear all

having just joined in the discussion  i want to agree in all honesty with maggie that indeed there is a serious clash between human rights and culture. zena represents many other girls who have fallen victims to cultural practices that perpetuate total disregard for women/girls human rights. This incident is a mirror for swazi women in particular to look thrugh themselves and question some of the cultural practices which interestingly they are at the forefront in  enforcing.

it can not be over emphasised that strong  legal frameworks needs to be put in place as watchdogs for culprits who dress "culture" in persuit of their evil ends.a fair and uniform practice calls for a total review and reform of laws to match human rights and that is exactly what the women' organisations in this region are fighting for.

whatever way we look at it this is a problem so deep rootedthat it will stay with us for a longer time for as long as the youngsters grow up  internalizing the cultural norms that reinforce sexrole stereotyping.

jullian

 

 

 research <research@genderlinks.org.za> wrote:

Dear All
Sorry, i just felt I had to say something again. I think Jennifer and
Maggie's contributions here again raise an importnat point, which i think I
alluded to in my previous contribution about legal frameworks and
constitutional provisions in the region, and this is precisely that most
countries in the region have not reformed their laws and legal frameworks to
reconcile them with international Human Rights instruments that they have
acceded to or ratified. Maybe the question then should be do we reform the
laws and frameworks to match international instruments or do we adapt and
reform international instruments to fit our frameworks?? And I think this is
especially important when we talk gender equality in Southern Africa, where
the whole arena of decision-making is generally dominated by men!
What do others think? Lets unpack it!!!!
Alice



----- Original Message -----
From: "Jennifer Joni"
To: "Maggie McDonough" ; "research"
;
Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 4:52 PM
Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity


> Maggie, just a pint of clarity. What I was trying to say is that we get
> caught up in two situations. One is the human rights debate, which I said
> is meant to determine which of our cultural values should remain, that is
> does the particular custom /practice pass the constitutional scrutiny.
> Second, is then the issue about western values that sometimes get used to
> determine which cultural values should remain. I am not at all suggesting
> an interrelation between the two concepts.
> Human rights are the best thing that has ever happened to planet earth,
the
> question is: is using the human rights stick or constitutional arguments
> relevant in I think we are all trying to uncover here?
> The JJ
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Maggie McDonough
> To: 'Jennifer Joni' ; research
> ;
> Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 4:37 PM
> Subject: RE: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity
>
>
> > Hello again,
> >
> > I think Jennifer raised some interesting points here, but there is one
> point
> > in particular that I would like to address -- that is, the concept of
> human
> > rights being determined by western/colonial values. I actually do not
> > accept that human rights is a uniquely western concept. Human rights
have
> > been invoked by people throughout the world, both historically and
> > contemporaneously. Human rights formed the basis of the Non-cooperation
> > Movement AGAINST the British in colonial India. Human rights have
formed
> > the basis against the authoritarian and military regimes of Europe and
> > Eurasia. Mass movements (e.g. for gender equality, environmental
> > protection, etc) have gained untold strength and sustenance from human
> > rights issues. The list can go on.
> >
> > Anyway, just wanted to add my two cents on this point.
> >
> > Maggie
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Jennifer Joni [mailto:jonij@law.wits.ac.za]
> > Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 6:56 AM
> > To: research; egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org
> > Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity
> >
> >
> > maqabane
> >
> > Interesting subject, culture and people wanting to use culture to do
their
> > horrendous, violent deeds. There are a few issues that i always grapple
> > with when confronted with these questions, which I honestly believe go
to
> > the root of who we are; I mean those of us who are expected to respect
our
> > culture. At what point does culture stop being that which we think
should
> be
> > practiced? Is this determined by the western values that have been
> > instilled in us since colonialism? Do we (especially in South Africa)
say
> > that we now have a Constitution which says that conduct that is in not
in
> > line with the vales in the Constitution, is unconstitutional. Those
> values
> > being human dignity, equality and blah blah blah. The reason I am
raising
> > these concerns emanates from a statement made at the Racism Conference,
> > where one woman stated that we should be cautious of attempts by the
other
> > -who is insistent and is forcing the people to abrogate their culture
> > because they think it is oppressive. The yardstick being the western
> > culture. I am not condoning what Moswati is doing but I would like to
know
> > what processes need to be put in place to challenge abusive, insulting
> > practices. Do we for example take stock of all those practices that we
> think
> > perpetuate violence against women? and then decide and agree how we are
> > going to change them? Who does this for us? In my Xhosa culture there
are
> > indeed practices that are demeaning, and cause a lot of hardship for
> women.
> > How do we attend to this.
> >
> > Salani ngoxolo
> > The JJ
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: lindiwe nkutha
> > To: research ;
>
> > Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 10:59 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity
> >
> >
> > > Hi again
> > >
> > > Interestingly as we talk about culture we begin to challaenge our own
> > > beliefs on what constitutes culture as well as how we understand the
> > > workings of it. Critical to this realisation is our understanding and
> > > appreciation of how culture is passed on from generation to
> > > generation, entrenching positions of indivduals and setting precedents
> > > that future genarations will follow often times unquestioned.
> > >
> > > Bakari raises properly the predicament of chicken and egg where
> > > culture is concerned, and so we ask, in the formation of society and
> > > the negotiation
> > of
> > > indivual identities which takes more precedent, the indivual make up
> > > of members of communities or the culture into which they are born? And
> > > this
> > is
> > > the real quanandram!
> > >
> > > If we agree that culture exists for amongst other reasons as a
> > > tempalte on which our own indivual identities are formed, we agree
> > > also that gender roles are difined in culture; the man as hunter,
> > > gatherer and aggressor
> > and
> > > woman as surbesvient receipient of caring, nurtiring etc etc are
> > entrenched
> > > also in culture (and not just African cultures, just about all
> > > cultures in fact). So that we base our understanding of the situation
> > > in Swaziland on this premise, and begin to realise that from
> > > generation to generation,
> > women
> > > in Swaziland would gather for the reed dance, half naked or almost
> > entirely
> > > completely naked as Bakari says, is no co-incidence, it is done
> > > because it is a practice that fore ancestors engaged in as part of
> > > their cultural expression ( to what end now, is what we have to
> > > grapple with) .
> > >
> > > As a by the way as on my way to my point, I need to say, Swazi people
> > > and in fact most cultures in Southern Africa did not wear anything
> > > much before we were introduced to a western way of dressing...part of
> > > our colonisation...essentially "nudity" was for us never a tabooo. The
> > > comment on nudity reflects how the western way of being have
> > > influenced how we see ourselves.
> > >
> > > Having said that and getting back on course to my point, I need to
> > > repeat what I said yesterday, which Columbus picked up on also, that
> > > "customs and culture can be used to further gains of individuals". The
> > > genesis of the reed dance a Swazi friend informs me, was for the
> > > Queen mother, never a parade for the king to choose his wives. It was
> > > for the queen mother to choose for herself maidens that would help her
> > > in her homestead . The
> > "king"
> > > has now appropriated this tradition for himself and has turned it into
> > > a peep show for himself (re-entrenching women's positions as objects
> > > of gaze...for the titilation of his own self). Is it then the practice
> > > itself that is wrong or is the "reason" for its continuance that is
> > > oppressive?
> > and
> > > this is the point of this discussion I mantain. Bakari says women in
> > > Swaziland ecxept for my namesake Dlamini agree with the culture and
> > customs.
> > > This statement is not entirely wrong, because if they did not no
> > > woman would send their daughters to the reed dance, and as
> > > westernised as we
> > have
> > > become mothers in Swaziland would ensure that if their daughters went
> > > they were fully clothed and so on and so on.
> > >
> > > But why do women continue to send their children? Because women are in
> > most
> > > cases the custodians of culture, and if we all agree that culture in
> > > the wrong hands can be oppressive we begin to appreciate how women
> > > remaining oblivious to their oppression can serve the interests of
> > > those who seek to keep them oppressed. And right here is where I agree
> > > fully with Bakari, knowldge is power! Knowledge and information on the
> > > basis of which change can be negotiated both at an individual and
> > > community level has been
> > witheld
> > > for far too long from women. Unless and until women conscientize one
> > another
> > > or are conscientized to a different reality, such abuses as we see in
> > > Swaziland will continue. Because culture is not static, and is ever
> > > changing, what will begin to happen is that together, as women and
> > > men we will begin to build a new culture that defines aptly who we
> > > want to be. Unless that happens (not only in Swaziland) but the world
> > > over women will appear and in fact may just continue to collude in
> > > their own oppression.
> > >
> > > Oh dear I'm afraid I have gone on and on...apologies Alice for the
> > > lenght
> > of
> > > this, but I guess what I was trying to say in a very round about way
> > > is
> > (i)
> > > culture is not static and is capable of being changed by individuals
> > > (ii) women need to be empowred to begin to see the world differently
> > > so they contribute meaningfully to processses that shape their lives,
> > > including
> > the
> > > shaping of culture.
> > >
> > > Until next time
> > >
> > > Lindiwe Nkutha
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "bakari machumu"
> > > To: "lindiwe nkutha" ; "research"
> > > ;
> > > Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 6:02 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity
> > >
> > >
> > > > Hi to all,
> > > > This is kind of a tricky situation where one get
> > > > confused on a situation like a chick and egg, what
> > > > comes first. Can't demacate clearly that, from this
> > > > point on, human rights begins. I think if we are to go
> > > > on with this culture, custom and tradition thing, then
> > > > it should be under equal applications for both Men and Women. But do
> > > > women as women know their right in Swaziland, i mean with the
> > > > exception of Lindiwe Dlaminimost Swazi women, (its my guess i stand
> > > > to be
> > > > corrected) agrees with the culture, customs tradition
> > > > thing todate. I mean, i can't imagine them continuing parading with
> > > > their upper bodies and most of the under part in such neckedness,
> > > > that by itself keeps their minds in it.To me that, consititutes
> > > > negative cultural practices Now, to solve this thing, i believe on
> > > > agressive, consistent awareness creation.How? that is
> > > > the question
> > > >
> > > > Bakari
> > > > Dar es Salaam
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- lindiwe nkutha wrote:
> > > > > Hi to all
> > > > >
> > > > > Its an interesting topic isn't it'? the convergence
> > > > > of human rights and custom/ culture etc. Ideally
> > > > > these should not be mutually exclusive, me thinks. I think also
> > > > > that in particular, southern African customs that espouse or
> > > > > purport to espouse the principle of Ubuntu should not at all have
> > > > > a problem with human rights. (but then again there are a lot
> > > > > of things I think that are not necessarily fact). My
> > > > > rationale is if the foundation of the concept of
> > > > > ubuntu which is said to recognise (albeit
> > > > > philosophically) that "I am because you are" is our
> > > > > point of departure then who I am is intrinsically
> > > > > linked to who you are. If you are free, so am I
> > > > > free, if you are oppressed, so am I oppressed, and
> > > > > so on and so on.
> > > > >
> > > > > But because society loves an "other", and
> > > > > patriarchy has worked wonders in "securing women's positions as
> > > > > others", patriarchy in a heavy disguise as culture has always been
> > > > > used as the banner under which abuses of human rights are
> > > > > perpetuated. So that the lines were blurred and everytime we said
> > > > > "I am because you are" and we were speaking as men,
> > > > > it almost felt natural, cultural, in line with dated
> > > > > customs to exclude women. In this context the
> > > > > speaking ""I am...."' is under patriarchy, not
> > > > > considered the speaking female, it is always
> > > > > the"speaking male and this gets termed culturally
> > > > > acceptable practise, but it is not.
> > > > >
> > > > > If we move form the ""ubuntu" premise, we begin to
> > > > > see that the marginalisation and subjugation of
> > > > > women is against the principle said to ground our culture. If we
> > > > > accept, and perhaps this is one aspect in our "evolution -
> > > > > culturally" that we left behind, the acceptance that the speaking
> > > > > "I am..." is both male and female, then within culture we
> > > > > begin to see that some of the things that get
> > > > > justified as culture are in fact not cultural, but
> > > > > are patriarchal practices dressed as culture.
> > > > >
> > > > > The king says he will not turn away from his
> > > > > cultural practices no matter what! Selectively so,
> > > > > he sticks to his cultural practices when it suits
> > > > > him, because there are benefits for him. Which is
> > > > > another thing about culture that is worth
> > > > > mentioning. More times than not the most vocal
> > > > > voices on the adoption of culture are those that
> > > > > have a vested interest in the practice at hand. An
> > > > > uncle who needs to "cleanse a widow" will probably
> > > > > be the loudest about upholding culture, even though
> > > > > they may be silent about other aspects of that same culture. My
> > > > > point being that culture can be used to advance or secure people's
> > > > > positions.
> > > > >
> > > > > As I sign off, I need to make it clear that I do not think that
> > > > > culture is all bad. No in fact I appreciate the critical position
> > > > > that particularly those in countries that were previously
> > > > > colonised are grappling with. A project of recovery of that
> > > > > which we were before our culture was tempered with,
> > > > > balanced against the reality of the now and who we
> > > > > define ourselves as presently as well as the
> > > > > challenge of self definition into the future of who
> > > > > we want to be. And we sit in a challenging
> > > > > position. The true test for all of us though (me
> > > > > thinks) in assessing what is acceptable as culture
> > > > > and what is not acceptable is whether or not the
> > > > > precise in any way takes away from an individual
> > > > > (and in turn the collective...community ...based on
> > > > > Ubuntu)
> > > > > ability to enjoy to its full extent the experience
> > > > > of being human.
> > > > >
> > > > > Until later
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: research
> > > > > To: egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org
> > > > > Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 9:47 AM
> > > > > Subject: [Egemtraining] This week's discussion
> > > > > topic: Lets Talk!!!
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Dear All
> > > > >
> > > > > I am sure most of you have been itching to receive
> > > > > the first discussion topic and are ready to roll!!!
> > > > > I have been keenly waiting to start as weel. Below
> > > > > is the discussion topic and the question at the end
> > > > > of the piece. Please remember not to make your contribution too
> > > > > long. Just comment as briefly as possible to give others a chance
> > > > > to also share their opinions. Also remember to "reply to all" so
> > > > > that you do not share your opinion just with me but with
> > > > > all in the network. Happy reading and looking
> > > > > forward to hearing your opinions!!!
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Where does culture start and stop, and individual rights begin?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I am sure most of us are aware of the
> > > > > controversial ongoing court case in Swaziland
> > > > > between a mother (Lindiwe Dlamini) and the King (his
> > > > > aides) concerning the abduction of an
> > > > > 18-year-old-child (Zena) Mahlangu for "royal
> > > > > duties".
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > For those who have not been following the case,
> > > > > the King (who is being sued through his aides, is
> > > > > alleged to have abducted the child from school
> > > > > without her mother's knowledge and consent. Lindiwe
> > > > > wants her child to be returned to her custody and
> > > > > the King has been arguing that the child is being
> > > > > kept at the Royal Guest House to be prepared to be
> > > > > the King's 10th wife. The King was quoted as saying
> > > > > at a press conference, "The whole issue has been
> > > > > blown out of proportion by those who took advantage
> > > > > of trying to destroy our customs and traditions".
> > > > > People may say whatever they want to sy but I vow to
> > > > > stick to our traditions, no matter what the times
> > > > > are. I can be blamed left and right, but the fact of
> > > > > the matter is that it is our culture that I should
> > > > > marry many wives as I can. I cannot allow myself to
> > > > > be forced to follow Western culture".
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > The controversy is generally seen as a "clash
> > > > > between customs and modernity". According to custom,
> > > > > Mswati may choose a new wife each year from among
> > > > > the thousands of virgins who attend the annual reed
> > > > > dance". Ironically Mswati last year revived a
> > > > > traditional ban on sex with underage girls to combat
> > > > > HIV/AIDS.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > After protests for the abduction of Zena and two
> > > > > other girls, the King fined himself a cow for
> > > > > breaking his own royal decree. (BBC News). He was
> > > > > also quoted as saying that he was prepared to pay
> > > > > cows as fines for selecting the three girls.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Zena's mother is challenging the alleged
> > > > > traditional grabbing of her daughter on the grounds
> > > > > that she was not consulted, did not consent and her
> > > > > child has been taken out of school and therefore was
> > > > > abducted. The King's courtiers (aides) have been
> > > > > arguing that the girl was not abducted but went
> > > > > willingly. "Everything was arranged between the King
> > > > > and the girl and our job was just to pick her at the
> > > > > agreed spot. No force was applied".
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Human rights activists have been arguing that
> > > > > "traditionalists should stop "raping" girls in the
> > > > > name of culture, while royals have been insisting
> > > > > that Mswati's selection of Zena to be his bride is a
> > > > > traditional issue that must be resolved through
> > > > > Swazi customs and culture.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Gender and human rights activists have noted that
> > > > > Zena is a minor child (18 years) and the abduction
> > > > > is a criminal offence in that it violates

=== message truncated ===


Get a bigger mailbox -- choose a size that fits your needs.
--0-186609502-1037781305=:21006-- From jbwmolemogi@yahoo.com Wed Nov 20 08:35:36 2002 From: jbwmolemogi@yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?jullian=20molemogi?=) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 08:35:36 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity In-Reply-To: <00b401c28fe0$202e32a0$0e00a8c0@ALICEK> Message-ID: <20021120083536.80414.qmail@web14806.mail.yahoo.com> --0-1410140177-1037781336=:79348 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dear all having just joined in the discussion i want to agree in all honesty with maggie that indeed there is a serious clash between human rights and culture. zena represents many other girls who have fallen victims to cultural practices that perpetuate total disregard for women/girls human rights. This incident is a mirror for swazi women in particular to look thrugh themselves and question some of the cultural practices which interestingly they are at the forefront in enforcing. it can not be over emphasised that strong legal frameworks needs to be put in place as watchdogs for culprits who dress "culture" in persuit of their evil ends.a fair and uniform practice calls for a total review and reform of laws to match human rights and that is exactly what the women' organisations in this region are fighting for. whatever way we look at it this is a problem so deep rootedthat it will stay with us for a longer time for as long as the youngsters grow up internalizing the cultural norms that reinforce sexrole stereotyping. jullian research wrote:Dear All Sorry, i just felt I had to say something again. I think Jennifer and Maggie's contributions here again raise an importnat point, which i think I alluded to in my previous contribution about legal frameworks and constitutional provisions in the region, and this is precisely that most countries in the region have not reformed their laws and legal frameworks to reconcile them with international Human Rights instruments that they have acceded to or ratified. Maybe the question then should be do we reform the laws and frameworks to match international instruments or do we adapt and reform international instruments to fit our frameworks?? And I think this is especially important when we talk gender equality in Southern Africa, where the whole arena of decision-making is generally dominated by men! What do others think? Lets unpack it!!!! Alice ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jennifer Joni" To: "Maggie McDonough" ; "research" ; Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 4:52 PM Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > Maggie, just a pint of clarity. What I was trying to say is that we get > caught up in two situations. One is the human rights debate, which I said > is meant to determine which of our cultural values should remain, that is > does the particular custom /practice pass the constitutional scrutiny. > Second, is then the issue about western values that sometimes get used to > determine which cultural values should remain. I am not at all suggesting > an interrelation between the two concepts. > Human rights are the best thing that has ever happened to planet earth, the > question is: is using the human rights stick or constitutional arguments > relevant in I think we are all trying to uncover here? > The JJ > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Maggie McDonough > To: 'Jennifer Joni' ; research > ; > Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 4:37 PM > Subject: RE: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > > > > Hello again, > > > > I think Jennifer raised some interesting points here, but there is one > point > > in particular that I would like to address -- that is, the concept of > human > > rights being determined by western/colonial values. I actually do not > > accept that human rights is a uniquely western concept. Human rights have > > been invoked by people throughout the world, both historically and > > contemporaneously. Human rights formed the basis of the Non-cooperation > > Movement AGAINST the British in colonial India. Human rights have formed > > the basis against the authoritarian and military regimes of Europe and > > Eurasia. Mass movements (e.g. for gender equality, environmental > > protection, etc) have gained untold strength and sustenance from human > > rights issues. The list can go on. > > > > Anyway, just wanted to add my two cents on this point. > > > > Maggie > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Jennifer Joni [mailto:jonij@law.wits.ac.za] > > Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 6:56 AM > > To: research; egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > > Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > > > > > > maqabane > > > > Interesting subject, culture and people wanting to use culture to do their > > horrendous, violent deeds. There are a few issues that i always grapple > > with when confronted with these questions, which I honestly believe go to > > the root of who we are; I mean those of us who are expected to respect our > > culture. At what point does culture stop being that which we think should > be > > practiced? Is this determined by the western values that have been > > instilled in us since colonialism? Do we (especially in South Africa) say > > that we now have a Constitution which says that conduct that is in not in > > line with the vales in the Constitution, is unconstitutional. Those > values > > being human dignity, equality and blah blah blah. The reason I am raising > > these concerns emanates from a statement made at the Racism Conference, > > where one woman stated that we should be cautious of attempts by the other > > -who is insistent and is forcing the people to abrogate their culture > > because they think it is oppressive. The yardstick being the western > > culture. I am not condoning what Moswati is doing but I would like to know > > what processes need to be put in place to challenge abusive, insulting > > practices. Do we for example take stock of all those practices that we > think > > perpetuate violence against women? and then decide and agree how we are > > going to change them? Who does this for us? In my Xhosa culture there are > > indeed practices that are demeaning, and cause a lot of hardship for > women. > > How do we attend to this. > > > > Salani ngoxolo > > The JJ > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: lindiwe nkutha > > To: research ; > > > Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 10:59 AM > > Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > > > > > > > Hi again > > > > > > Interestingly as we talk about culture we begin to challaenge our own > > > beliefs on what constitutes culture as well as how we understand the > > > workings of it. Critical to this realisation is our understanding and > > > appreciation of how culture is passed on from generation to > > > generation, entrenching positions of indivduals and setting precedents > > > that future genarations will follow often times unquestioned. > > > > > > Bakari raises properly the predicament of chicken and egg where > > > culture is concerned, and so we ask, in the formation of society and > > > the negotiation > > of > > > indivual identities which takes more precedent, the indivual make up > > > of members of communities or the culture into which they are born? And > > > this > > is > > > the real quanandram! > > > > > > If we agree that culture exists for amongst other reasons as a > > > tempalte on which our own indivual identities are formed, we agree > > > also that gender roles are difined in culture; the man as hunter, > > > gatherer and aggressor > > and > > > woman as surbesvient receipient of caring, nurtiring etc etc are > > entrenched > > > also in culture (and not just African cultures, just about all > > > cultures in fact). So that we base our understanding of the situation > > > in Swaziland on this premise, and begin to realise that from > > > generation to generation, > > women > > > in Swaziland would gather for the reed dance, half naked or almost > > entirely > > > completely naked as Bakari says, is no co-incidence, it is done > > > because it is a practice that fore ancestors engaged in as part of > > > their cultural expression ( to what end now, is what we have to > > > grapple with) . > > > > > > As a by the way as on my way to my point, I need to say, Swazi people > > > and in fact most cultures in Southern Africa did not wear anything > > > much before we were introduced to a western way of dressing...part of > > > our colonisation...essentially "nudity" was for us never a tabooo. The > > > comment on nudity reflects how the western way of being have > > > influenced how we see ourselves. > > > > > > Having said that and getting back on course to my point, I need to > > > repeat what I said yesterday, which Columbus picked up on also, that > > > "customs and culture can be used to further gains of individuals". The > > > genesis of the reed dance a Swazi friend informs me, was for the > > > Queen mother, never a parade for the king to choose his wives. It was > > > for the queen mother to choose for herself maidens that would help her > > > in her homestead . The > > "king" > > > has now appropriated this tradition for himself and has turned it into > > > a peep show for himself (re-entrenching women's positions as objects > > > of gaze...for the titilation of his own self). Is it then the practice > > > itself that is wrong or is the "reason" for its continuance that is > > > oppressive? > > and > > > this is the point of this discussion I mantain. Bakari says women in > > > Swaziland ecxept for my namesake Dlamini agree with the culture and > > customs. > > > This statement is not entirely wrong, because if they did not no > > > woman would send their daughters to the reed dance, and as > > > westernised as we > > have > > > become mothers in Swaziland would ensure that if their daughters went > > > they were fully clothed and so on and so on. > > > > > > But why do women continue to send their children? Because women are in > > most > > > cases the custodians of culture, and if we all agree that culture in > > > the wrong hands can be oppressive we begin to appreciate how women > > > remaining oblivious to their oppression can serve the interests of > > > those who seek to keep them oppressed. And right here is where I agree > > > fully with Bakari, knowldge is power! Knowledge and information on the > > > basis of which change can be negotiated both at an individual and > > > community level has been > > witheld > > > for far too long from women. Unless and until women conscientize one > > another > > > or are conscientized to a different reality, such abuses as we see in > > > Swaziland will continue. Because culture is not static, and is ever > > > changing, what will begin to happen is that together, as women and > > > men we will begin to build a new culture that defines aptly who we > > > want to be. Unless that happens (not only in Swaziland) but the world > > > over women will appear and in fact may just continue to collude in > > > their own oppression. > > > > > > Oh dear I'm afraid I have gone on and on...apologies Alice for the > > > lenght > > of > > > this, but I guess what I was trying to say in a very round about way > > > is > > (i) > > > culture is not static and is capable of being changed by individuals > > > (ii) women need to be empowred to begin to see the world differently > > > so they contribute meaningfully to processses that shape their lives, > > > including > > the > > > shaping of culture. > > > > > > Until next time > > > > > > Lindiwe Nkutha > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "bakari machumu" > > > To: "lindiwe nkutha" ; "research" > > > ; > > > Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 6:02 PM > > > Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > > > > > > > > > > Hi to all, > > > > This is kind of a tricky situation where one get > > > > confused on a situation like a chick and egg, what > > > > comes first. Can't demacate clearly that, from this > > > > point on, human rights begins. I think if we are to go > > > > on with this culture, custom and tradition thing, then > > > > it should be under equal applications for both Men and Women. But do > > > > women as women know their right in Swaziland, i mean with the > > > > exception of Lindiwe Dlaminimost Swazi women, (its my guess i stand > > > > to be > > > > corrected) agrees with the culture, customs tradition > > > > thing todate. I mean, i can't imagine them continuing parading with > > > > their upper bodies and most of the under part in such neckedness, > > > > that by itself keeps their minds in it.To me that, consititutes > > > > negative cultural practices Now, to solve this thing, i believe on > > > > agressive, consistent awareness creation.How? that is > > > > the question > > > > > > > > Bakari > > > > Dar es Salaam > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- lindiwe nkutha wrote: > > > > > Hi to all > > > > > > > > > > Its an interesting topic isn't it'? the convergence > > > > > of human rights and custom/ culture etc. Ideally > > > > > these should not be mutually exclusive, me thinks. I think also > > > > > that in particular, southern African customs that espouse or > > > > > purport to espouse the principle of Ubuntu should not at all have > > > > > a problem with human rights. (but then again there are a lot > > > > > of things I think that are not necessarily fact). My > > > > > rationale is if the foundation of the concept of > > > > > ubuntu which is said to recognise (albeit > > > > > philosophically) that "I am because you are" is our > > > > > point of departure then who I am is intrinsically > > > > > linked to who you are. If you are free, so am I > > > > > free, if you are oppressed, so am I oppressed, and > > > > > so on and so on. > > > > > > > > > > But because society loves an "other", and > > > > > patriarchy has worked wonders in "securing women's positions as > > > > > others", patriarchy in a heavy disguise as culture has always been > > > > > used as the banner under which abuses of human rights are > > > > > perpetuated. So that the lines were blurred and everytime we said > > > > > "I am because you are" and we were speaking as men, > > > > > it almost felt natural, cultural, in line with dated > > > > > customs to exclude women. In this context the > > > > > speaking ""I am...."' is under patriarchy, not > > > > > considered the speaking female, it is always > > > > > the"speaking male and this gets termed culturally > > > > > acceptable practise, but it is not. > > > > > > > > > > If we move form the ""ubuntu" premise, we begin to > > > > > see that the marginalisation and subjugation of > > > > > women is against the principle said to ground our culture. If we > > > > > accept, and perhaps this is one aspect in our "evolution - > > > > > culturally" that we left behind, the acceptance that the speaking > > > > > "I am..." is both male and female, then within culture we > > > > > begin to see that some of the things that get > > > > > justified as culture are in fact not cultural, but > > > > > are patriarchal practices dressed as culture. > > > > > > > > > > The king says he will not turn away from his > > > > > cultural practices no matter what! Selectively so, > > > > > he sticks to his cultural practices when it suits > > > > > him, because there are benefits for him. Which is > > > > > another thing about culture that is worth > > > > > mentioning. More times than not the most vocal > > > > > voices on the adoption of culture are those that > > > > > have a vested interest in the practice at hand. An > > > > > uncle who needs to "cleanse a widow" will probably > > > > > be the loudest about upholding culture, even though > > > > > they may be silent about other aspects of that same culture. My > > > > > point being that culture can be used to advance or secure people's > > > > > positions. > > > > > > > > > > As I sign off, I need to make it clear that I do not think that > > > > > culture is all bad. No in fact I appreciate the critical position > > > > > that particularly those in countries that were previously > > > > > colonised are grappling with. A project of recovery of that > > > > > which we were before our culture was tempered with, > > > > > balanced against the reality of the now and who we > > > > > define ourselves as presently as well as the > > > > > challenge of self definition into the future of who > > > > > we want to be. And we sit in a challenging > > > > > position. The true test for all of us though (me > > > > > thinks) in assessing what is acceptable as culture > > > > > and what is not acceptable is whether or not the > > > > > precise in any way takes away from an individual > > > > > (and in turn the collective...community ...based on > > > > > Ubuntu) > > > > > ability to enjoy to its full extent the experience > > > > > of being human. > > > > > > > > > > Until later > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: research > > > > > To: egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > > > > > Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 9:47 AM > > > > > Subject: [Egemtraining] This week's discussion > > > > > topic: Lets Talk!!! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear All > > > > > > > > > > I am sure most of you have been itching to receive > > > > > the first discussion topic and are ready to roll!!! > > > > > I have been keenly waiting to start as weel. Below > > > > > is the discussion topic and the question at the end > > > > > of the piece. Please remember not to make your contribution too > > > > > long. Just comment as briefly as possible to give others a chance > > > > > to also share their opinions. Also remember to "reply to all" so > > > > > that you do not share your opinion just with me but with > > > > > all in the network. Happy reading and looking > > > > > forward to hearing your opinions!!! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Where does culture start and stop, and individual rights begin? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am sure most of us are aware of the > > > > > controversial ongoing court case in Swaziland > > > > > between a mother (Lindiwe Dlamini) and the King (his > > > > > aides) concerning the abduction of an > > > > > 18-year-old-child (Zena) Mahlangu for "royal > > > > > duties". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For those who have not been following the case, > > > > > the King (who is being sued through his aides, is > > > > > alleged to have abducted the child from school > > > > > without her mother's knowledge and consent. Lindiwe > > > > > wants her child to be returned to her custody and > > > > > the King has been arguing that the child is being > > > > > kept at the Royal Guest House to be prepared to be > > > > > the King's 10th wife. The King was quoted as saying > > > > > at a press conference, "The whole issue has been > > > > > blown out of proportion by those who took advantage > > > > > of trying to destroy our customs and traditions". > > > > > People may say whatever they want to sy but I vow to > > > > > stick to our traditions, no matter what the times > > > > > are. I can be blamed left and right, but the fact of > > > > > the matter is that it is our culture that I should > > > > > marry many wives as I can. I cannot allow myself to > > > > > be forced to follow Western culture". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The controversy is generally seen as a "clash > > > > > between customs and modernity". According to custom, > > > > > Mswati may choose a new wife each year from among > > > > > the thousands of virgins who attend the annual reed > > > > > dance". Ironically Mswati last year revived a > > > > > traditional ban on sex with underage girls to combat > > > > > HIV/AIDS. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > After protests for the abduction of Zena and two > > > > > other girls, the King fined himself a cow for > > > > > breaking his own royal decree. (BBC News). He was > > > > > also quoted as saying that he was prepared to pay > > > > > cows as fines for selecting the three girls. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Zena's mother is challenging the alleged > > > > > traditional grabbing of her daughter on the grounds > > > > > that she was not consulted, did not consent and her > > > > > child has been taken out of school and therefore was > > > > > abducted. The King's courtiers (aides) have been > > > > > arguing that the girl was not abducted but went > > > > > willingly. "Everything was arranged between the King > > > > > and the girl and our job was just to pick her at the > > > > > agreed spot. No force was applied". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Human rights activists have been arguing that > > > > > "traditionalists should stop "raping" girls in the > > > > > name of culture, while royals have been insisting > > > > > that Mswati's selection of Zena to be his bride is a > > > > > traditional issue that must be resolved through > > > > > Swazi customs and culture. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gender and human rights activists have noted that > > > > > Zena is a minor child (18 years) and the abduction > > > > > is a criminal offence in that it violates === message truncated === --------------------------------- Get a bigger mailbox -- choose a size that fits your needs. --0-1410140177-1037781336=:79348 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Dear all

having just joined in the discussion  i want to agree in all honesty with maggie that indeed there is a serious clash between human rights and culture. zena represents many other girls who have fallen victims to cultural practices that perpetuate total disregard for women/girls human rights. This incident is a mirror for swazi women in particular to look thrugh themselves and question some of the cultural practices which interestingly they are at the forefront in  enforcing.

it can not be over emphasised that strong  legal frameworks needs to be put in place as watchdogs for culprits who dress "culture" in persuit of their evil ends.a fair and uniform practice calls for a total review and reform of laws to match human rights and that is exactly what the women' organisations in this region are fighting for.

whatever way we look at it this is a problem so deep rootedthat it will stay with us for a longer time for as long as the youngsters grow up  internalizing the cultural norms that reinforce sexrole stereotyping.

jullian

 

 

 research <research@genderlinks.org.za> wrote:

Dear All
Sorry, i just felt I had to say something again. I think Jennifer and
Maggie's contributions here again raise an importnat point, which i think I
alluded to in my previous contribution about legal frameworks and
constitutional provisions in the region, and this is precisely that most
countries in the region have not reformed their laws and legal frameworks to
reconcile them with international Human Rights instruments that they have
acceded to or ratified. Maybe the question then should be do we reform the
laws and frameworks to match international instruments or do we adapt and
reform international instruments to fit our frameworks?? And I think this is
especially important when we talk gender equality in Southern Africa, where
the whole arena of decision-making is generally dominated by men!
What do others think? Lets unpack it!!!!
Alice



----- Original Message -----
From: "Jennifer Joni"
To: "Maggie McDonough" ; "research"
;
Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 4:52 PM
Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity


> Maggie, just a pint of clarity. What I was trying to say is that we get
> caught up in two situations. One is the human rights debate, which I said
> is meant to determine which of our cultural values should remain, that is
> does the particular custom /practice pass the constitutional scrutiny.
> Second, is then the issue about western values that sometimes get used to
> determine which cultural values should remain. I am not at all suggesting
> an interrelation between the two concepts.
> Human rights are the best thing that has ever happened to planet earth,
the
> question is: is using the human rights stick or constitutional arguments
> relevant in I think we are all trying to uncover here?
> The JJ
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Maggie McDonough
> To: 'Jennifer Joni' ; research
> ;
> Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 4:37 PM
> Subject: RE: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity
>
>
> > Hello again,
> >
> > I think Jennifer raised some interesting points here, but there is one
> point
> > in particular that I would like to address -- that is, the concept of
> human
> > rights being determined by western/colonial values. I actually do not
> > accept that human rights is a uniquely western concept. Human rights
have
> > been invoked by people throughout the world, both historically and
> > contemporaneously. Human rights formed the basis of the Non-cooperation
> > Movement AGAINST the British in colonial India. Human rights have
formed
> > the basis against the authoritarian and military regimes of Europe and
> > Eurasia. Mass movements (e.g. for gender equality, environmental
> > protection, etc) have gained untold strength and sustenance from human
> > rights issues. The list can go on.
> >
> > Anyway, just wanted to add my two cents on this point.
> >
> > Maggie
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Jennifer Joni [mailto:jonij@law.wits.ac.za]
> > Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 6:56 AM
> > To: research; egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org
> > Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity
> >
> >
> > maqabane
> >
> > Interesting subject, culture and people wanting to use culture to do
their
> > horrendous, violent deeds. There are a few issues that i always grapple
> > with when confronted with these questions, which I honestly believe go
to
> > the root of who we are; I mean those of us who are expected to respect
our
> > culture. At what point does culture stop being that which we think
should
> be
> > practiced? Is this determined by the western values that have been
> > instilled in us since colonialism? Do we (especially in South Africa)
say
> > that we now have a Constitution which says that conduct that is in not
in
> > line with the vales in the Constitution, is unconstitutional. Those
> values
> > being human dignity, equality and blah blah blah. The reason I am
raising
> > these concerns emanates from a statement made at the Racism Conference,
> > where one woman stated that we should be cautious of attempts by the
other
> > -who is insistent and is forcing the people to abrogate their culture
> > because they think it is oppressive. The yardstick being the western
> > culture. I am not condoning what Moswati is doing but I would like to
know
> > what processes need to be put in place to challenge abusive, insulting
> > practices. Do we for example take stock of all those practices that we
> think
> > perpetuate violence against women? and then decide and agree how we are
> > going to change them? Who does this for us? In my Xhosa culture there
are
> > indeed practices that are demeaning, and cause a lot of hardship for
> women.
> > How do we attend to this.
> >
> > Salani ngoxolo
> > The JJ
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: lindiwe nkutha
> > To: research ;
>
> > Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 10:59 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity
> >
> >
> > > Hi again
> > >
> > > Interestingly as we talk about culture we begin to challaenge our own
> > > beliefs on what constitutes culture as well as how we understand the
> > > workings of it. Critical to this realisation is our understanding and
> > > appreciation of how culture is passed on from generation to
> > > generation, entrenching positions of indivduals and setting precedents
> > > that future genarations will follow often times unquestioned.
> > >
> > > Bakari raises properly the predicament of chicken and egg where
> > > culture is concerned, and so we ask, in the formation of society and
> > > the negotiation
> > of
> > > indivual identities which takes more precedent, the indivual make up
> > > of members of communities or the culture into which they are born? And
> > > this
> > is
> > > the real quanandram!
> > >
> > > If we agree that culture exists for amongst other reasons as a
> > > tempalte on which our own indivual identities are formed, we agree
> > > also that gender roles are difined in culture; the man as hunter,
> > > gatherer and aggressor
> > and
> > > woman as surbesvient receipient of caring, nurtiring etc etc are
> > entrenched
> > > also in culture (and not just African cultures, just about all
> > > cultures in fact). So that we base our understanding of the situation
> > > in Swaziland on this premise, and begin to realise that from
> > > generation to generation,
> > women
> > > in Swaziland would gather for the reed dance, half naked or almost
> > entirely
> > > completely naked as Bakari says, is no co-incidence, it is done
> > > because it is a practice that fore ancestors engaged in as part of
> > > their cultural expression ( to what end now, is what we have to
> > > grapple with) .
> > >
> > > As a by the way as on my way to my point, I need to say, Swazi people
> > > and in fact most cultures in Southern Africa did not wear anything
> > > much before we were introduced to a western way of dressing...part of
> > > our colonisation...essentially "nudity" was for us never a tabooo. The
> > > comment on nudity reflects how the western way of being have
> > > influenced how we see ourselves.
> > >
> > > Having said that and getting back on course to my point, I need to
> > > repeat what I said yesterday, which Columbus picked up on also, that
> > > "customs and culture can be used to further gains of individuals". The
> > > genesis of the reed dance a Swazi friend informs me, was for the
> > > Queen mother, never a parade for the king to choose his wives. It was
> > > for the queen mother to choose for herself maidens that would help her
> > > in her homestead . The
> > "king"
> > > has now appropriated this tradition for himself and has turned it into
> > > a peep show for himself (re-entrenching women's positions as objects
> > > of gaze...for the titilation of his own self). Is it then the practice
> > > itself that is wrong or is the "reason" for its continuance that is
> > > oppressive?
> > and
> > > this is the point of this discussion I mantain. Bakari says women in
> > > Swaziland ecxept for my namesake Dlamini agree with the culture and
> > customs.
> > > This statement is not entirely wrong, because if they did not no
> > > woman would send their daughters to the reed dance, and as
> > > westernised as we
> > have
> > > become mothers in Swaziland would ensure that if their daughters went
> > > they were fully clothed and so on and so on.
> > >
> > > But why do women continue to send their children? Because women are in
> > most
> > > cases the custodians of culture, and if we all agree that culture in
> > > the wrong hands can be oppressive we begin to appreciate how women
> > > remaining oblivious to their oppression can serve the interests of
> > > those who seek to keep them oppressed. And right here is where I agree
> > > fully with Bakari, knowldge is power! Knowledge and information on the
> > > basis of which change can be negotiated both at an individual and
> > > community level has been
> > witheld
> > > for far too long from women. Unless and until women conscientize one
> > another
> > > or are conscientized to a different reality, such abuses as we see in
> > > Swaziland will continue. Because culture is not static, and is ever
> > > changing, what will begin to happen is that together, as women and
> > > men we will begin to build a new culture that defines aptly who we
> > > want to be. Unless that happens (not only in Swaziland) but the world
> > > over women will appear and in fact may just continue to collude in
> > > their own oppression.
> > >
> > > Oh dear I'm afraid I have gone on and on...apologies Alice for the
> > > lenght
> > of
> > > this, but I guess what I was trying to say in a very round about way
> > > is
> > (i)
> > > culture is not static and is capable of being changed by individuals
> > > (ii) women need to be empowred to begin to see the world differently
> > > so they contribute meaningfully to processses that shape their lives,
> > > including
> > the
> > > shaping of culture.
> > >
> > > Until next time
> > >
> > > Lindiwe Nkutha
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "bakari machumu"
> > > To: "lindiwe nkutha" ; "research"
> > > ;
> > > Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 6:02 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity
> > >
> > >
> > > > Hi to all,
> > > > This is kind of a tricky situation where one get
> > > > confused on a situation like a chick and egg, what
> > > > comes first. Can't demacate clearly that, from this
> > > > point on, human rights begins. I think if we are to go
> > > > on with this culture, custom and tradition thing, then
> > > > it should be under equal applications for both Men and Women. But do
> > > > women as women know their right in Swaziland, i mean with the
> > > > exception of Lindiwe Dlaminimost Swazi women, (its my guess i stand
> > > > to be
> > > > corrected) agrees with the culture, customs tradition
> > > > thing todate. I mean, i can't imagine them continuing parading with
> > > > their upper bodies and most of the under part in such neckedness,
> > > > that by itself keeps their minds in it.To me that, consititutes
> > > > negative cultural practices Now, to solve this thing, i believe on
> > > > agressive, consistent awareness creation.How? that is
> > > > the question
> > > >
> > > > Bakari
> > > > Dar es Salaam
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- lindiwe nkutha wrote:
> > > > > Hi to all
> > > > >
> > > > > Its an interesting topic isn't it'? the convergence
> > > > > of human rights and custom/ culture etc. Ideally
> > > > > these should not be mutually exclusive, me thinks. I think also
> > > > > that in particular, southern African customs that espouse or
> > > > > purport to espouse the principle of Ubuntu should not at all have
> > > > > a problem with human rights. (but then again there are a lot
> > > > > of things I think that are not necessarily fact). My
> > > > > rationale is if the foundation of the concept of
> > > > > ubuntu which is said to recognise (albeit
> > > > > philosophically) that "I am because you are" is our
> > > > > point of departure then who I am is intrinsically
> > > > > linked to who you are. If you are free, so am I
> > > > > free, if you are oppressed, so am I oppressed, and
> > > > > so on and so on.
> > > > >
> > > > > But because society loves an "other", and
> > > > > patriarchy has worked wonders in "securing women's positions as
> > > > > others", patriarchy in a heavy disguise as culture has always been
> > > > > used as the banner under which abuses of human rights are
> > > > > perpetuated. So that the lines were blurred and everytime we said
> > > > > "I am because you are" and we were speaking as men,
> > > > > it almost felt natural, cultural, in line with dated
> > > > > customs to exclude women. In this context the
> > > > > speaking ""I am...."' is under patriarchy, not
> > > > > considered the speaking female, it is always
> > > > > the"speaking male and this gets termed culturally
> > > > > acceptable practise, but it is not.
> > > > >
> > > > > If we move form the ""ubuntu" premise, we begin to
> > > > > see that the marginalisation and subjugation of
> > > > > women is against the principle said to ground our culture. If we
> > > > > accept, and perhaps this is one aspect in our "evolution -
> > > > > culturally" that we left behind, the acceptance that the speaking
> > > > > "I am..." is both male and female, then within culture we
> > > > > begin to see that some of the things that get
> > > > > justified as culture are in fact not cultural, but
> > > > > are patriarchal practices dressed as culture.
> > > > >
> > > > > The king says he will not turn away from his
> > > > > cultural practices no matter what! Selectively so,
> > > > > he sticks to his cultural practices when it suits
> > > > > him, because there are benefits for him. Which is
> > > > > another thing about culture that is worth
> > > > > mentioning. More times than not the most vocal
> > > > > voices on the adoption of culture are those that
> > > > > have a vested interest in the practice at hand. An
> > > > > uncle who needs to "cleanse a widow" will probably
> > > > > be the loudest about upholding culture, even though
> > > > > they may be silent about other aspects of that same culture. My
> > > > > point being that culture can be used to advance or secure people's
> > > > > positions.
> > > > >
> > > > > As I sign off, I need to make it clear that I do not think that
> > > > > culture is all bad. No in fact I appreciate the critical position
> > > > > that particularly those in countries that were previously
> > > > > colonised are grappling with. A project of recovery of that
> > > > > which we were before our culture was tempered with,
> > > > > balanced against the reality of the now and who we
> > > > > define ourselves as presently as well as the
> > > > > challenge of self definition into the future of who
> > > > > we want to be. And we sit in a challenging
> > > > > position. The true test for all of us though (me
> > > > > thinks) in assessing what is acceptable as culture
> > > > > and what is not acceptable is whether or not the
> > > > > precise in any way takes away from an individual
> > > > > (and in turn the collective...community ...based on
> > > > > Ubuntu)
> > > > > ability to enjoy to its full extent the experience
> > > > > of being human.
> > > > >
> > > > > Until later
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: research
> > > > > To: egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org
> > > > > Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 9:47 AM
> > > > > Subject: [Egemtraining] This week's discussion
> > > > > topic: Lets Talk!!!
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Dear All
> > > > >
> > > > > I am sure most of you have been itching to receive
> > > > > the first discussion topic and are ready to roll!!!
> > > > > I have been keenly waiting to start as weel. Below
> > > > > is the discussion topic and the question at the end
> > > > > of the piece. Please remember not to make your contribution too
> > > > > long. Just comment as briefly as possible to give others a chance
> > > > > to also share their opinions. Also remember to "reply to all" so
> > > > > that you do not share your opinion just with me but with
> > > > > all in the network. Happy reading and looking
> > > > > forward to hearing your opinions!!!
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Where does culture start and stop, and individual rights begin?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I am sure most of us are aware of the
> > > > > controversial ongoing court case in Swaziland
> > > > > between a mother (Lindiwe Dlamini) and the King (his
> > > > > aides) concerning the abduction of an
> > > > > 18-year-old-child (Zena) Mahlangu for "royal
> > > > > duties".
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > For those who have not been following the case,
> > > > > the King (who is being sued through his aides, is
> > > > > alleged to have abducted the child from school
> > > > > without her mother's knowledge and consent. Lindiwe
> > > > > wants her child to be returned to her custody and
> > > > > the King has been arguing that the child is being
> > > > > kept at the Royal Guest House to be prepared to be
> > > > > the King's 10th wife. The King was quoted as saying
> > > > > at a press conference, "The whole issue has been
> > > > > blown out of proportion by those who took advantage
> > > > > of trying to destroy our customs and traditions".
> > > > > People may say whatever they want to sy but I vow to
> > > > > stick to our traditions, no matter what the times
> > > > > are. I can be blamed left and right, but the fact of
> > > > > the matter is that it is our culture that I should
> > > > > marry many wives as I can. I cannot allow myself to
> > > > > be forced to follow Western culture".
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > The controversy is generally seen as a "clash
> > > > > between customs and modernity". According to custom,
> > > > > Mswati may choose a new wife each year from among
> > > > > the thousands of virgins who attend the annual reed
> > > > > dance". Ironically Mswati last year revived a
> > > > > traditional ban on sex with underage girls to combat
> > > > > HIV/AIDS.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > After protests for the abduction of Zena and two
> > > > > other girls, the King fined himself a cow for
> > > > > breaking his own royal decree. (BBC News). He was
> > > > > also quoted as saying that he was prepared to pay
> > > > > cows as fines for selecting the three girls.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Zena's mother is challenging the alleged
> > > > > traditional grabbing of her daughter on the grounds
> > > > > that she was not consulted, did not consent and her
> > > > > child has been taken out of school and therefore was
> > > > > abducted. The King's courtiers (aides) have been
> > > > > arguing that the girl was not abducted but went
> > > > > willingly. "Everything was arranged between the King
> > > > > and the girl and our job was just to pick her at the
> > > > > agreed spot. No force was applied".
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Human rights activists have been arguing that
> > > > > "traditionalists should stop "raping" girls in the
> > > > > name of culture, while royals have been insisting
> > > > > that Mswati's selection of Zena to be his bride is a
> > > > > traditional issue that must be resolved through
> > > > > Swazi customs and culture.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Gender and human rights activists have noted that
> > > > > Zena is a minor child (18 years) and the abduction
> > > > > is a criminal offence in that it violates

=== message truncated ===


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--0-1410140177-1037781336=:79348-- From Kudzaishe@mwengo.org.zw Wed Nov 20 12:35:12 2002 From: Kudzaishe@mwengo.org.zw (Kudzaishe) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 14:35:12 +0200 Subject: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity Message-ID: <30C1EF84C3B1D611AE8A008048D7AA3D02849C@SERVER> Dear All Just some comments on what has been brought up so far. In terms of the proposal to change laws, I admit that changing laws is an important step in the modification of the status quo. However, it should not be viewed as the be end all. We have to work on changing the attitudes of all those people (both men and women) who are involved in the oppression of women. This is not an easy task as it means a complete reversal of belief systems, practices and positions that have been held since time immemorial. Furthermore, I have noticed that there have been a number of comments that Swaziland is a signatory to a child rights bill as well as a women's rights bill. If the case is like in Zimbabwe, which I suspect it might be, government can be a signatory of all the conventions under the sky, which call for the protection of its citizens. However, if these bills are not integrated into the law and constitution of the country, they are useless. This is because if for example customary laws are an integral part of the constitution of the country, the bills are overridden by the constitution of the country. This is called the protection of the sovereignty of the state. I also feel that it is only until the decision making bodies are staffed by enlightened women that progress can be made towards the advancement of women's rights the world over. I stress enlightened because we can have 90% of women in the decision making frameworks who might be the custodians of culture . We thus need women who fully understand that the rights of women should be protected for the advancement of the society. Just on a final point as my contribution is getting too long, I feel that it is a bit unfair to state that the Swazi women condone the king's action as they send their daughters to the reed dance. What should be examined is the root of the cultural practice and why it is valued to that extent and also the symbolism of the whole concept. If I am not mistaken only virgins take part in the reed dance and I suppose if a girl does not take part in the dance she will be stigmatised (I stand to be corrected on this). Therefore as we all know most families want to be viewed in the best possible light and thus they are more or less forced to take part in the activities. The first step might be for a campaign, in which all (or most) of the Swazi people take part and refuse to take participate in the ceremony i.e. no participants, no ceremony. This could be a first step towards the modification/ getting rid of this ceremony. I conclude with a question, we hear that three girls have been taken by the king, what is the fate so far of the other two girls? Thanks for bearing with me Kudzai -----Original Message----- From: research [SMTP:research@genderlinks.org.za] Sent: 19 November 2002 17:27 To: Jennifer Joni; Maggie McDonough; egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity Dear All Sorry, i just felt I had to say something again. I think Jennifer and Maggie's contributions here again raise an importnat point, which i think I alluded to in my previous contribution about legal frameworks and constitutional provisions in the region, and this is precisely that most countries in the region have not reformed their laws and legal frameworks to reconcile them with international Human Rights instruments that they have acceded to or ratified. Maybe the question then should be do we reform the laws and frameworks to match international instruments or do we adapt and reform international instruments to fit our frameworks?? And I think this is especially important when we talk gender equality in Southern Africa, where the whole arena of decision-making is generally dominated by men! What do others think? Lets unpack it!!!! Alice ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jennifer Joni" To: "Maggie McDonough" ; "research" ; Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 4:52 PM Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > Maggie, just a pint of clarity. What I was trying to say is that we get > caught up in two situations. One is the human rights debate, which I said > is meant to determine which of our cultural values should remain, that is > does the particular custom /practice pass the constitutional scrutiny. > Second, is then the issue about western values that sometimes get used to > determine which cultural values should remain. I am not at all suggesting > an interrelation between the two concepts. > Human rights are the best thing that has ever happened to planet earth, the > question is: is using the human rights stick or constitutional arguments > relevant in I think we are all trying to uncover here? > The JJ > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Maggie McDonough > To: 'Jennifer Joni' ; research > ; > Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 4:37 PM > Subject: RE: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > > > > Hello again, > > > > I think Jennifer raised some interesting points here, but there is one > point > > in particular that I would like to address -- that is, the concept of > human > > rights being determined by western/colonial values. I actually do not > > accept that human rights is a uniquely western concept. Human rights have > > been invoked by people throughout the world, both historically and > > contemporaneously. Human rights formed the basis of the Non-cooperation > > Movement AGAINST the British in colonial India. Human rights have formed > > the basis against the authoritarian and military regimes of Europe and > > Eurasia. Mass movements (e.g. for gender equality, environmental > > protection, etc) have gained untold strength and sustenance from human > > rights issues. The list can go on. > > > > Anyway, just wanted to add my two cents on this point. > > > > Maggie > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Jennifer Joni [mailto:jonij@law.wits.ac.za] > > Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 6:56 AM > > To: research; egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > > Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > > > > > > maqabane > > > > Interesting subject, culture and people wanting to use culture to do their > > horrendous, violent deeds. There are a few issues that i always grapple > > with when confronted with these questions, which I honestly believe go to > > the root of who we are; I mean those of us who are expected to respect our > > culture. At what point does culture stop being that which we think should > be > > practiced? Is this determined by the western values that have been > > instilled in us since colonialism? Do we (especially in South Africa) say > > that we now have a Constitution which says that conduct that is in not in > > line with the vales in the Constitution, is unconstitutional. Those > values > > being human dignity, equality and blah blah blah. The reason I am raising > > these concerns emanates from a statement made at the Racism Conference, > > where one woman stated that we should be cautious of attempts by the other > > -who is insistent and is forcing the people to abrogate their culture > > because they think it is oppressive. The yardstick being the western > > culture. I am not condoning what Moswati is doing but I would like to know > > what processes need to be put in place to challenge abusive, insulting > > practices. Do we for example take stock of all those practices that we > think > > perpetuate violence against women? and then decide and agree how we are > > going to change them? Who does this for us? In my Xhosa culture there are > > indeed practices that are demeaning, and cause a lot of hardship for > women. > > How do we attend to this. > > > > Salani ngoxolo > > The JJ > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: lindiwe nkutha > > To: research ; > > > Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 10:59 AM > > Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > > > > > > > Hi again > > > > > > Interestingly as we talk about culture we begin to challaenge our own > > > beliefs on what constitutes culture as well as how we understand the > > > workings of it. Critical to this realisation is our understanding and > > > appreciation of how culture is passed on from generation to > > > generation, entrenching positions of indivduals and setting precedents > > > that future genarations will follow often times unquestioned. > > > > > > Bakari raises properly the predicament of chicken and egg where > > > culture is concerned, and so we ask, in the formation of society and > > > the negotiation > > of > > > indivual identities which takes more precedent, the indivual make up > > > of members of communities or the culture into which they are born? And > > > this > > is > > > the real quanandram! > > > > > > If we agree that culture exists for amongst other reasons as a > > > tempalte on which our own indivual identities are formed, we agree > > > also that gender roles are difined in culture; the man as hunter, > > > gatherer and aggressor > > and > > > woman as surbesvient receipient of caring, nurtiring etc etc are > > entrenched > > > also in culture (and not just African cultures, just about all > > > cultures in fact). So that we base our understanding of the situation > > > in Swaziland on this premise, and begin to realise that from > > > generation to generation, > > women > > > in Swaziland would gather for the reed dance, half naked or almost > > entirely > > > completely naked as Bakari says, is no co-incidence, it is done > > > because it is a practice that fore ancestors engaged in as part of > > > their cultural expression ( to what end now, is what we have to > > > grapple with) . > > > > > > As a by the way as on my way to my point, I need to say, Swazi people > > > and in fact most cultures in Southern Africa did not wear anything > > > much before we were introduced to a western way of dressing...part of > > > our colonisation...essentially "nudity" was for us never a tabooo. The > > > comment on nudity reflects how the western way of being have > > > influenced how we see ourselves. > > > > > > Having said that and getting back on course to my point, I need to > > > repeat what I said yesterday, which Columbus picked up on also, that > > > "customs and culture can be used to further gains of individuals". The > > > genesis of the reed dance a Swazi friend informs me, was for the > > > Queen mother, never a parade for the king to choose his wives. It was > > > for the queen mother to choose for herself maidens that would help her > > > in her homestead . The > > "king" > > > has now appropriated this tradition for himself and has turned it into > > > a peep show for himself (re-entrenching women's positions as objects > > > of gaze...for the titilation of his own self). Is it then the practice > > > itself that is wrong or is the "reason" for its continuance that is > > > oppressive? > > and > > > this is the point of this discussion I mantain. Bakari says women in > > > Swaziland ecxept for my namesake Dlamini agree with the culture and > > customs. > > > This statement is not entirely wrong, because if they did not no > > > woman would send their daughters to the reed dance, and as > > > westernised as we > > have > > > become mothers in Swaziland would ensure that if their daughters went > > > they were fully clothed and so on and so on. > > > > > > But why do women continue to send their children? Because women are in > > most > > > cases the custodians of culture, and if we all agree that culture in > > > the wrong hands can be oppressive we begin to appreciate how women > > > remaining oblivious to their oppression can serve the interests of > > > those who seek to keep them oppressed. And right here is where I agree > > > fully with Bakari, knowldge is power! Knowledge and information on the > > > basis of which change can be negotiated both at an individual and > > > community level has been > > witheld > > > for far too long from women. Unless and until women conscientize one > > another > > > or are conscientized to a different reality, such abuses as we see in > > > Swaziland will continue. Because culture is not static, and is ever > > > changing, what will begin to happen is that together, as women and > > > men we will begin to build a new culture that defines aptly who we > > > want to be. Unless that happens (not only in Swaziland) but the world > > > over women will appear and in fact may just continue to collude in > > > their own oppression. > > > > > > Oh dear I'm afraid I have gone on and on...apologies Alice for the > > > lenght > > of > > > this, but I guess what I was trying to say in a very round about way > > > is > > (i) > > > culture is not static and is capable of being changed by individuals > > > (ii) women need to be empowred to begin to see the world differently > > > so they contribute meaningfully to processses that shape their lives, > > > including > > the > > > shaping of culture. > > > > > > Until next time > > > > > > Lindiwe Nkutha > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "bakari machumu" > > > To: "lindiwe nkutha" ; "research" > > > ; > > > Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 6:02 PM > > > Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > > > > > > > > > > Hi to all, > > > > This is kind of a tricky situation where one get > > > > confused on a situation like a chick and egg, what > > > > comes first. Can't demacate clearly that, from this > > > > point on, human rights begins. I think if we are to go > > > > on with this culture, custom and tradition thing, then > > > > it should be under equal applications for both Men and Women. But do > > > > women as women know their right in Swaziland, i mean with the > > > > exception of Lindiwe Dlaminimost Swazi women, (its my guess i stand > > > > to be > > > > corrected) agrees with the culture, customs tradition > > > > thing todate. I mean, i can't imagine them continuing parading with > > > > their upper bodies and most of the under part in such neckedness, > > > > that by itself keeps their minds in it.To me that, consititutes > > > > negative cultural practices Now, to solve this thing, i believe on > > > > agressive, consistent awareness creation.How? that is > > > > the question > > > > > > > > Bakari > > > > Dar es Salaam > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- lindiwe nkutha wrote: > > > > > Hi to all > > > > > > > > > > Its an interesting topic isn't it'? the convergence > > > > > of human rights and custom/ culture etc. Ideally > > > > > these should not be mutually exclusive, me thinks. I think also > > > > > that in particular, southern African customs that espouse or > > > > > purport to espouse the principle of Ubuntu should not at all have > > > > > a problem with human rights. (but then again there are a lot > > > > > of things I think that are not necessarily fact). My > > > > > rationale is if the foundation of the concept of > > > > > ubuntu which is said to recognise (albeit > > > > > philosophically) that "I am because you are" is our > > > > > point of departure then who I am is intrinsically > > > > > linked to who you are. If you are free, so am I > > > > > free, if you are oppressed, so am I oppressed, and > > > > > so on and so on. > > > > > > > > > > But because society loves an "other", and > > > > > patriarchy has worked wonders in "securing women's positions as > > > > > others", patriarchy in a heavy disguise as culture has always been > > > > > used as the banner under which abuses of human rights are > > > > > perpetuated. So that the lines were blurred and everytime we said > > > > > "I am because you are" and we were speaking as men, > > > > > it almost felt natural, cultural, in line with dated > > > > > customs to exclude women. In this context the > > > > > speaking ""I am...."' is under patriarchy, not > > > > > considered the speaking female, it is always > > > > > the"speaking male and this gets termed culturally > > > > > acceptable practise, but it is not. > > > > > > > > > > If we move form the ""ubuntu" premise, we begin to > > > > > see that the marginalisation and subjugation of > > > > > women is against the principle said to ground our culture. If we > > > > > accept, and perhaps this is one aspect in our "evolution - > > > > > culturally" that we left behind, the acceptance that the speaking > > > > > "I am..." is both male and female, then within culture we > > > > > begin to see that some of the things that get > > > > > justified as culture are in fact not cultural, but > > > > > are patriarchal practices dressed as culture. > > > > > > > > > > The king says he will not turn away from his > > > > > cultural practices no matter what! Selectively so, > > > > > he sticks to his cultural practices when it suits > > > > > him, because there are benefits for him. Which is > > > > > another thing about culture that is worth > > > > > mentioning. More times than not the most vocal > > > > > voices on the adoption of culture are those that > > > > > have a vested interest in the practice at hand. An > > > > > uncle who needs to "cleanse a widow" will probably > > > > > be the loudest about upholding culture, even though > > > > > they may be silent about other aspects of that same culture. My > > > > > point being that culture can be used to advance or secure people's > > > > > positions. > > > > > > > > > > As I sign off, I need to make it clear that I do not think that > > > > > culture is all bad. No in fact I appreciate the critical position > > > > > that particularly those in countries that were previously > > > > > colonised are grappling with. A project of recovery of that > > > > > which we were before our culture was tempered with, > > > > > balanced against the reality of the now and who we > > > > > define ourselves as presently as well as the > > > > > challenge of self definition into the future of who > > > > > we want to be. And we sit in a challenging > > > > > position. The true test for all of us though (me > > > > > thinks) in assessing what is acceptable as culture > > > > > and what is not acceptable is whether or not the > > > > > precise in any way takes away from an individual > > > > > (and in turn the collective...community ...based on > > > > > Ubuntu) > > > > > ability to enjoy to its full extent the experience > > > > > of being human. > > > > > > > > > > Until later > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: research > > > > > To: egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > > > > > Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 9:47 AM > > > > > Subject: [Egemtraining] This week's discussion > > > > > topic: Lets Talk!!! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear All > > > > > > > > > > I am sure most of you have been itching to receive > > > > > the first discussion topic and are ready to roll!!! > > > > > I have been keenly waiting to start as weel. Below > > > > > is the discussion topic and the question at the end > > > > > of the piece. Please remember not to make your contribution too > > > > > long. Just comment as briefly as possible to give others a chance > > > > > to also share their opinions. Also remember to "reply to all" so > > > > > that you do not share your opinion just with me but with > > > > > all in the network. Happy reading and looking > > > > > forward to hearing your opinions!!! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Where does culture start and stop, and individual rights begin? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am sure most of us are aware of the > > > > > controversial ongoing court case in Swaziland > > > > > between a mother (Lindiwe Dlamini) and the King (his > > > > > aides) concerning the abduction of an > > > > > 18-year-old-child (Zena) Mahlangu for "royal > > > > > duties". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For those who have not been following the case, > > > > > the King (who is being sued through his aides, is > > > > > alleged to have abducted the child from school > > > > > without her mother's knowledge and consent. Lindiwe > > > > > wants her child to be returned to her custody and > > > > > the King has been arguing that the child is being > > > > > kept at the Royal Guest House to be prepared to be > > > > > the King's 10th wife. The King was quoted as saying > > > > > at a press conference, "The whole issue has been > > > > > blown out of proportion by those who took advantage > > > > > of trying to destroy our customs and traditions". > > > > > People may say whatever they want to sy but I vow to > > > > > stick to our traditions, no matter what the times > > > > > are. I can be blamed left and right, but the fact of > > > > > the matter is that it is our culture that I should > > > > > marry many wives as I can. I cannot allow myself to > > > > > be forced to follow Western culture". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The controversy is generally seen as a "clash > > > > > between customs and modernity". According to custom, > > > > > Mswati may choose a new wife each year from among > > > > > the thousands of virgins who attend the annual reed > > > > > dance". Ironically Mswati last year revived a > > > > > traditional ban on sex with underage girls to combat > > > > > HIV/AIDS. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > After protests for the abduction of Zena and two > > > > > other girls, the King fined himself a cow for > > > > > breaking his own royal decree. (BBC News). He was > > > > > also quoted as saying that he was prepared to pay > > > > > cows as fines for selecting the three girls. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Zena's mother is challenging the alleged > > > > > traditional grabbing of her daughter on the grounds > > > > > that she was not consulted, did not consent and her > > > > > child has been taken out of school and therefore was > > > > > abducted. The King's courtiers (aides) have been > > > > > arguing that the girl was not abducted but went > > > > > willingly. "Everything was arranged between the King > > > > > and the girl and our job was just to pick her at the > > > > > agreed spot. No force was applied". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Human rights activists have been arguing that > > > > > "traditionalists should stop "raping" girls in the > > > > > name of culture, while royals have been insisting > > > > > that Mswati's selection of Zena to be his bride is a > > > > > traditional issue that must be resolved through > > > > > Swazi customs and culture. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gender and human rights activists have noted that > > > > > Zena is a minor child (18 years) and the abduction > > > > > is a criminal offence in that it violates > > > > > > > > > > 1) Lindiwe Dlamini's rights to custody and > > > > > guardianship over her minor child and also that; > > > > > > > > > > 2) Zena's rights to liberty, freedom of movement, > > > > > education, choice of marriage partner, right to be a > > > > > child and bodily integrity. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Most of us are, I am sure, aware that Swaziland is > > > > > signatory to the SADC Declaration on Gender and > > > > > Development which commits it in article (vii) to, > > > > > among other things, protecting the human rights of > > > > > women and children, which raises a number of > > > > > concerns regarding this case. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Question for Discussion > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1) Where should culture, custom and tradition > > > > > stop and individual human rights begin, to ensure > > > > > the > > > > === message truncated === > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > > Everything you'll ever need on one web page > > > > from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts > > > > http://uk.my.yahoo.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Egemtraining mailing list > > > > Egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > > > > http://lists.sn.apc.org/mailman/listinfo/egemtraining > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Egemtraining mailing list > > > Egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > > > http://lists.sn.apc.org/mailman/listinfo/egemtraining > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Egemtraining mailing list > > Egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > > http://lists.sn.apc.org/mailman/listinfo/egemtraining > > _______________________________________________ > > Egemtraining mailing list > > Egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > > http://lists.sn.apc.org/mailman/listinfo/egemtraining > > > _______________________________________________ Egemtraining mailing list Egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org http://lists.sn.apc.org/mailman/listinfo/egemtraining From bmachumu@yahoo.com Wed Nov 20 15:32:13 2002 From: bmachumu@yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?bakari=20machumu?=) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 15:32:13 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity In-Reply-To: <00a101c28fdc$e84e0700$0e00a8c0@ALICEK> Message-ID: <20021120153213.33839.qmail@web40906.mail.yahoo.com> Dear All, Alice is raising yet another face of our leaders when she says the King signed the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, and SADC's Declaration on Gender and Development which ofcourse oblige him to protect the rights of children. But it is on of those things some of our leaders are just forced to sign when they are those summits, however, they always never live to it. An not suprised by the way things are now, coz this is reflected in the topic in discussion. In short it is the lack of proper prioritisation (for the public interest), no wonder a leader vows spend $ 40 million on acquiring a jet, in a country where annual health budget is $ 20 million per annum! talking about prioritisation, who are the most affected group in thge society (healthwise) I guess its children. But the declarations are just one wastage of efforts if Africa leaders can not push each other in keeping their promises. Otherwise, if our reprersentatives (MPs) can let the governments know that they will not ratify and agreement, protocol, declaration unless the govt comes up with a set of action plan... Bakari --- research wrote: > Dear All > > Where do I start!! its really getting very > interesting and challenging, > too!! Thanks so much to all of you who have cooked > quite a number of bones > of contention!! Bakari's opinion that women seem to > enjoy and agree to be > subjected to such cultural exploitations; Lindiwe > Nkutha's view that yes, to > some extent they do BUT lets also look beyond the > surface and interrogate > WHY they seem to accept something which does not > seem to benefit them in any > way, raising issues of socialization and culture as > passed from generation > to generation; Lindiwe Nkonyane (we really have to > distinguish the Lindiwes > here, otherwise we will get mixed up!!!(smile)) who > raised another important > issue that the way around it would be to ensure > statutory and constitutional > guarantees to protect women and children. A > proposition made by Maggie, > which I think also needs for us to further reflect > on is that where culture > and custom clashes with individual rights, the > course to take should be to > apply the basic human rights principles of > non-disrimination, non-oppression > and fairness and more importantly, Educating women > as a priority! Maybe we > can reflect a bit more on how for instance legal > reforms and constitutional > guarantees can turn around the situation, especially > bearing in mind that > most law makers in the region are indeed men (they > are the majority in most > Parliaments), and even where laws do exist, there > does not seem to be a > clear framework and mechanisms to fully implement > them. For instance, King > Mswati signed both the UN Convention on the Rights > of the Child, and the > SADC Declaration on Gender and Development, both of > which oblige him to > protect the rights of children. To me, the issue > then becomes a matter of > reconciling these international instruments with > customary and cultural > practices, and making sure that there is a legal > framework to guarantee the > full implementation of the provisions of such > instruments. What do others > think about this?? Lets continue to talk!!!!!! > > Alice > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jennifer Joni" > To: "research" ; > > Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 1:55 PM > Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs > and Modernity > > > > maqabane > > > > Interesting subject, culture and people wanting to > use culture to do their > > horrendous, violent deeds. There are a few issues > that i always grapple > > with when confronted with these questions, which I > honestly believe go to > > the root of who we are; I mean those of us who are > expected to respect our > > culture. > > At what point does culture stop being that which > we think should be > > practiced? Is this determined by the western > values that have been > > instilled in us since colonialism? Do we > (especially in South Africa) say > > that we now have a Constitution which says that > conduct that is in not in > > line with the vales in the Constitution, is > unconstitutional. Those > values > > being human dignity, equality and blah blah blah. > > The reason I am raising these concerns emanates > from a statement made at > the > > Racism Conference, where one woman stated that we > should be cautious of > > attempts by the other -who is insistent and is > forcing the people to > > abrogate their culture because they think it is > oppressive. The yardstick > > being the western culture. > > I am not condoning what Moswati is doing but I > would like to know what > > processes need to be put in place to challenge > abusive, insulting > practices. > > Do we for example take stock of all those > practices that we think > perpetuate > > violence against women? and then decide and agree > how we are going to > change > > them? Who does this for us? > > In my Xhosa culture there are indeed practices > that are demeaning, and > cause > > a lot of hardship for women. How do we attend to > this. > > > > Salani ngoxolo > > The JJ > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: lindiwe nkutha > > To: research ; > > > Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 10:59 AM > > Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs > and Modernity > > > > > > > Hi again > > > > > > Interestingly as we talk about culture we begin > to challaenge our own > > > beliefs on what constitutes culture as well as > how we understand the > > > workings of it. Critical to this realisation is > our understanding and > > > appreciation of how culture is passed on from > generation to generation, > > > entrenching positions of indivduals and setting > precedents that future > > > genarations will follow often times > unquestioned. > > > > > > Bakari raises properly the predicament of > chicken and egg where culture > is > > > concerned, and so we ask, in the formation of > society and the > negotiation > > of > > > indivual identities which takes more precedent, > the indivual make up of > > > members of communities or the culture into which > they are born? And this > > is > > > the real quanandram! > > > > > > If we agree that culture exists for amongst > other reasons as a tempalte > on > > > which our own indivual identities are formed, we > agree also that gender > > > roles are difined in culture; the man as hunter, > gatherer and aggressor > > and > > > woman as surbesvient receipient of caring, > nurtiring etc etc are > > entrenched > > > also in culture (and not just African cultures, > just about all cultures > in > > > fact). So that we base our understanding of the > situation in Swaziland > on > > > this premise, and begin to realise that from > generation to generation, > > women > > > in Swaziland would gather for the reed dance, > half naked or almost > > entirely > > > completely naked as Bakari says, is no > co-incidence, it is done because > it > > > is a practice that fore ancestors engaged in as > part of their cultural > > > expression ( to what end now, is what we have to > grapple with) . > > > > > > As a by the way as on my way to my point, I > need to say, Swazi people > and > > > in fact most cultures in Southern Africa did not > wear anything much > before > > > we were introduced to a western way of > dressing...part of our > === message truncated === __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Everything you'll ever need on one web page from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts http://uk.my.yahoo.com From mmcdonough@irex.org Wed Nov 20 16:04:26 2002 From: mmcdonough@irex.org (Maggie McDonough) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 11:04:26 -0500 Subject: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity Message-ID: <51E0CF9C2CF499478C33F3D4FFD3763097BEF5@exchange.irex.org> Hello again, I'm sure everybody is tired of hearing from me already, but on this point there is something I feel compelled to say. That is, I don't think the laws should necessarily reflect the culture at all times. I see legislation as one thing that can compel that which society/culture is not prepared to accept. One anecdotal example of this from the history of my country relates to the issue of public school desegregation in the 1950s. Particularly in the southern part of the US, many states were absolutely opposed to desegregating schools and a long legal battle ensued over this issue. As a result, in 1954, our Supreme Court mandated all states of the union must desegregate schools, even though many areas of the country were fundamentally opposed to it on a cultural level. Of course from a human rights point of view the court made the only decision they could have. So, in cases like this, I think laws should be designed to advance certain principles instead of reflecting prevailing culture. Maggie -----Original Message----- From: Fr. Steve Kamanga jnr [mailto:radiomaria@malawi.net] Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 4:58 PM To: research; Jennifer Joni; Maggie McDonough; egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity I agree our laws are not updated to suit our current environment. We are saying culture is dynamic (always changing), it follows therefore that the laws that govern, protect and enforces such a culture must also be changing/modified when culture is modified. What we see happening is we are using same laws in a very modified culture. Steve Malawi ----- Original Message ----- From: research To: Jennifer Joni ; Maggie McDonough ; Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 5:27 PM Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > Dear All > Sorry, i just felt I had to say something again. I think Jennifer and > Maggie's contributions here again raise an importnat point, which i > think I > alluded to in my previous contribution about legal frameworks and > constitutional provisions in the region, and this is precisely that > most countries in the region have not reformed their laws and legal > frameworks to > reconcile them with international Human Rights instruments that they > have acceded to or ratified. Maybe the question then should be do we > reform the laws and frameworks to match international instruments or > do we adapt and reform international instruments to fit our > frameworks?? And I think this is > especially important when we talk gender equality in Southern Africa, where > the whole arena of decision-making is generally dominated by men! What > do others think? Lets unpack it!!!! Alice > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jennifer Joni" > To: "Maggie McDonough" ; "research" > ; > Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 4:52 PM > Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > > > > Maggie, just a pint of clarity. What I was trying to say is that we > > get caught up in two situations. One is the human rights debate, > > which I said > > is meant to determine which of our cultural values should remain, > > that is > > does the particular custom /practice pass the constitutional > > scrutiny. Second, is then the issue about western values that > > sometimes get used to > > determine which cultural values should remain. I am not at all suggesting > > an interrelation between the two concepts. > > Human rights are the best thing that has ever happened to planet > > earth, > the > > question is: is using the human rights stick or constitutional > > arguments relevant in I think we are all trying to uncover here? The > > JJ > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Maggie McDonough > > To: 'Jennifer Joni' ; research > > ; > > Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 4:37 PM > > Subject: RE: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > > > > > > > Hello again, > > > > > > I think Jennifer raised some interesting points here, but there is > > > one > > point > > > in particular that I would like to address -- that is, the concept > > > of > > human > > > rights being determined by western/colonial values. I actually do > > > not accept that human rights is a uniquely western concept. Human > > > rights > have > > > been invoked by people throughout the world, both historically and > > > contemporaneously. Human rights formed the basis of the Non-cooperation > > > Movement AGAINST the British in colonial India. Human rights have > formed > > > the basis against the authoritarian and military regimes of Europe > > > and Eurasia. Mass movements (e.g. for gender equality, > > > environmental protection, etc) have gained untold strength and > > > sustenance from human rights issues. The list can go on. > > > > > > Anyway, just wanted to add my two cents on this point. > > > > > > Maggie > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Jennifer Joni [mailto:jonij@law.wits.ac.za] > > > Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 6:56 AM > > > To: research; egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > > > Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > > > > > > > > > maqabane > > > > > > Interesting subject, culture and people wanting to use culture to > > > do > their > > > horrendous, violent deeds. There are a few issues that i always grapple > > > with when confronted with these questions, which I honestly > > > believe go > to > > > the root of who we are; I mean those of us who are expected to > > > respect > our > > > culture. At what point does culture stop being that which we think > should > > be > > > practiced? Is this determined by the western values that have > > > been instilled in us since colonialism? Do we (especially in South > > > Africa) > say > > > that we now have a Constitution which says that conduct that is in > > > not > in > > > line with the vales in the Constitution, is unconstitutional. > > > Those > > values > > > being human dignity, equality and blah blah blah. The reason I am > raising > > > these concerns emanates from a statement made at the Racism Conference, > > > where one woman stated that we should be cautious of attempts by > > > the > other > > > -who is insistent and is forcing the people to abrogate their > > > culture because they think it is oppressive. The yardstick being > > > the western culture. I am not condoning what Moswati is doing but > > > I would like to > know > > > what processes need to be put in place to challenge abusive, > > > insulting practices. Do we for example take stock of all those > > > practices that we > > think > > > perpetuate violence against women? and then decide and agree how > > > we are > > > going to change them? Who does this for us? In my Xhosa culture > > > there > are > > > indeed practices that are demeaning, and cause a lot of hardship > > > for > > women. > > > How do we attend to this. > > > > > > Salani ngoxolo > > > The JJ > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: lindiwe nkutha > > > To: research ; > > > > > Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 10:59 AM > > > Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > > > > > > > > > > Hi again > > > > > > > > Interestingly as we talk about culture we begin to challaenge > > > > our own > > > > beliefs on what constitutes culture as well as how we understand > > > > the workings of it. Critical to this realisation is our > > > > understanding and > > > > appreciation of how culture is passed on from generation to > > > > generation, entrenching positions of indivduals and setting precedents > > > > that future genarations will follow often times unquestioned. > > > > > > > > Bakari raises properly the predicament of chicken and egg where > > > > culture is concerned, and so we ask, in the formation of society > > > > and the negotiation > > > of > > > > indivual identities which takes more precedent, the indivual > > > > make up of members of communities or the culture into which they > > > > are born? And > > > > this > > > is > > > > the real quanandram! > > > > > > > > If we agree that culture exists for amongst other reasons as a > > > > tempalte on which our own indivual identities are formed, we > > > > agree also that gender roles are difined in culture; the man as > > > > hunter, gatherer and aggressor > > > and > > > > woman as surbesvient receipient of caring, nurtiring etc etc are > > > entrenched > > > > also in culture (and not just African cultures, just about all > > > > cultures in fact). So that we base our understanding of the situation > > > > in Swaziland on this premise, and begin to realise that from > > > > generation to generation, > > > women > > > > in Swaziland would gather for the reed dance, half naked or > > > > almost > > > entirely > > > > completely naked as Bakari says, is no co-incidence, it is done > > > > because it is a practice that fore ancestors engaged in as part > > > > of their cultural expression ( to what end now, is what we have > > > > to grapple with) . > > > > > > > > As a by the way as on my way to my point, I need to say, Swazi people > > > > and in fact most cultures in Southern Africa did not wear > > > > anything much before we were introduced to a western way of > > > > dressing...part of > > > > our colonisation...essentially "nudity" was for us never a > > > > tabooo. The > > > > comment on nudity reflects how the western way of being have > > > > influenced how we see ourselves. > > > > > > > > Having said that and getting back on course to my point, I need > > > > to repeat what I said yesterday, which Columbus picked up on > > > > also, that "customs and culture can be used to further gains of > > > > individuals". The > > > > genesis of the reed dance a Swazi friend informs me, was for > > > > the Queen mother, never a parade for the king to choose his > > > > wives. It was > > > > for the queen mother to choose for herself maidens that would > > > > help her > > > > in her homestead . The > > > "king" > > > > has now appropriated this tradition for himself and has turned > > > > it into > > > > a peep show for himself (re-entrenching women's positions as objects > > > > of gaze...for the titilation of his own self). Is it then the practice > > > > itself that is wrong or is the "reason" for its continuance that > > > > is oppressive? > > > and > > > > this is the point of this discussion I mantain. Bakari says > > > > women in Swaziland ecxept for my namesake Dlamini agree with the > > > > culture and > > > customs. > > > > This statement is not entirely wrong, because if they did not > > > > no woman would send their daughters to the reed dance, and as > > > > westernised as we > > > have > > > > become mothers in Swaziland would ensure that if their daughters went > > > > they were fully clothed and so on and so on. > > > > > > > > But why do women continue to send their children? Because women > > > > are in > > > most > > > > cases the custodians of culture, and if we all agree that > > > > culture in the wrong hands can be oppressive we begin to > > > > appreciate how women remaining oblivious to their oppression can > > > > serve the interests of those who seek to keep them oppressed. > > > > And right here is where I agree > > > > fully with Bakari, knowldge is power! Knowledge and information > > > > on the > > > > basis of which change can be negotiated both at an individual > > > > and community level has been > > > witheld > > > > for far too long from women. Unless and until women conscientize > > > > one > > > another > > > > or are conscientized to a different reality, such abuses as we > > > > see in > > > > Swaziland will continue. Because culture is not static, and is > > > > ever changing, what will begin to happen is that together, as > > > > women and men we will begin to build a new culture that defines > > > > aptly who we want to be. Unless that happens (not only in > > > > Swaziland) but the world > > > > over women will appear and in fact may just continue to collude > > > > in their own oppression. > > > > > > > > Oh dear I'm afraid I have gone on and on...apologies Alice for > > > > the lenght > > > of > > > > this, but I guess what I was trying to say in a very round > > > > about way > > > > is > > > (i) > > > > culture is not static and is capable of being changed by > > > > individuals > > > > (ii) women need to be empowred to begin to see the world differently > > > > so they contribute meaningfully to processses that shape their lives, > > > > including > > > the > > > > shaping of culture. > > > > > > > > Until next time > > > > > > > > Lindiwe Nkutha > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "bakari machumu" > > > > To: "lindiwe nkutha" ; "research" > > > > ; > > > > Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 6:02 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi to all, > > > > > This is kind of a tricky situation where one get confused on a > > > > > situation like a chick and egg, what comes first. Can't > > > > > demacate clearly that, from this point on, human rights > > > > > begins. I think if we are to go on with this culture, custom > > > > > and tradition thing, then it should be under equal > > > > > applications for both Men and Women. But do > > > > > women as women know their right in Swaziland, i mean with the > > > > > exception of Lindiwe Dlaminimost Swazi women, (its my guess i stand > > > > > to be > > > > > corrected) agrees with the culture, customs tradition thing > > > > > todate. I mean, i can't imagine them continuing parading with > > > > > their upper bodies and most of the under part in such > > > > > neckedness, that by itself keeps their minds in it.To me that, > > > > > consititutes negative cultural practices Now, to solve this > > > > > thing, i believe on agressive, consistent awareness > > > > > creation.How? that is the question > > > > > > > > > > Bakari > > > > > Dar es Salaam > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- lindiwe nkutha wrote: > > > > > > Hi to all > > > > > > > > > > > > Its an interesting topic isn't it'? the convergence of human > > > > > > rights and custom/ culture etc. Ideally these should not be > > > > > > mutually exclusive, me thinks. I think also that in > > > > > > particular, southern African customs that espouse or purport > > > > > > to espouse the principle of Ubuntu should not at all have > > > > > > a problem with human rights. (but then again there are a lot > > > > > > of things I think that are not necessarily fact). My > > > > > > rationale is if the foundation of the concept of ubuntu > > > > > > which is said to recognise (albeit > > > > > > philosophically) that "I am because you are" is our point of > > > > > > departure then who I am is intrinsically linked to who you > > > > > > are. If you are free, so am I free, if you are oppressed, so > > > > > > am I oppressed, and so on and so on. > > > > > > > > > > > > But because society loves an "other", and patriarchy has > > > > > > worked wonders in "securing women's positions as others", > > > > > > patriarchy in a heavy disguise as culture has always been > > > > > > used as the banner under which abuses of human rights are > > > > > > perpetuated. So that the lines were blurred and everytime we said > > > > > > "I am because you are" and we were speaking as men, it > > > > > > almost felt natural, cultural, in line with dated customs to > > > > > > exclude women. In this context the speaking ""I am...."' is > > > > > > under patriarchy, not considered the speaking female, it is > > > > > > always the"speaking male and this gets termed culturally > > > > > > acceptable practise, but it is not. > > > > > > > > > > > > If we move form the ""ubuntu" premise, we begin to see that > > > > > > the marginalisation and subjugation of women is against the > > > > > > principle said to ground our culture. If we accept, and > > > > > > perhaps this is one aspect in our "evolution - culturally" > > > > > > that we left behind, the acceptance that the speaking > > > > > > "I am..." is both male and female, then within culture we > > > > > > begin to see that some of the things that get justified as > > > > > > culture are in fact not cultural, but are patriarchal > > > > > > practices dressed as culture. > > > > > > > > > > > > The king says he will not turn away from his cultural > > > > > > practices no matter what! Selectively so, he sticks to his > > > > > > cultural practices when it suits him, because there are > > > > > > benefits for him. Which is another thing about culture that > > > > > > is worth mentioning. More times than not the most vocal > > > > > > voices on the adoption of culture are those that > > > > > > have a vested interest in the practice at hand. An > > > > > > uncle who needs to "cleanse a widow" will probably > > > > > > be the loudest about upholding culture, even though > > > > > > they may be silent about other aspects of that same culture. My > > > > > > point being that culture can be used to advance or secure people's > > > > > > positions. > > > > > > > > > > > > As I sign off, I need to make it clear that I do not think > > > > > > that culture is all bad. No in fact I appreciate the > > > > > > critical position > > > > > > that particularly those in countries that were previously > > > > > > colonised are grappling with. A project of recovery of that > > > > > > which we were before our culture was tempered with, balanced > > > > > > against the reality of the now and who we define ourselves > > > > > > as presently as well as the challenge of self definition > > > > > > into the future of who we want to be. And we sit in a > > > > > > challenging position. The true test for all of us though (me > > > > > > thinks) in assessing what is acceptable as culture > > > > > > and what is not acceptable is whether or not the > > > > > > precise in any way takes away from an individual > > > > > > (and in turn the collective...community ...based on > > > > > > Ubuntu) > > > > > > ability to enjoy to its full extent the experience > > > > > > of being human. > > > > > > > > > > > > Until later > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > From: research > > > > > > To: egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > > > > > > Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 9:47 AM > > > > > > Subject: [Egemtraining] This week's discussion > > > > > > topic: Lets Talk!!! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear All > > > > > > > > > > > > I am sure most of you have been itching to receive the > > > > > > first discussion topic and are ready to roll!!! I have been > > > > > > keenly waiting to start as weel. Below is the discussion > > > > > > topic and the question at the end of the piece. Please > > > > > > remember not to make your contribution too long. Just > > > > > > comment as briefly as possible to give others a chance > > > > > > to also share their opinions. Also remember to "reply to > > > > > > all" so that you do not share your opinion just with me but > > > > > > with all in the network. Happy reading and looking forward > > > > > > to hearing your opinions!!! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Where does culture start and stop, and individual rights begin? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am sure most of us are aware of the controversial > > > > > > ongoing court case in Swaziland between a mother (Lindiwe > > > > > > Dlamini) and the King (his > > > > > > aides) concerning the abduction of an 18-year-old-child > > > > > > (Zena) Mahlangu for "royal duties". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For those who have not been following the case, the King > > > > > > (who is being sued through his aides, is alleged to have > > > > > > abducted the child from school without her mother's > > > > > > knowledge and consent. Lindiwe wants her child to be > > > > > > returned to her custody and the King has been arguing that > > > > > > the child is being kept at the Royal Guest House to be > > > > > > prepared to be the King's 10th wife. The King was quoted as > > > > > > saying at a press conference, "The whole issue has been > > > > > > blown out of proportion by those who took advantage > > > > > > of trying to destroy our customs and traditions". > > > > > > People may say whatever they want to sy but I vow to > > > > > > stick to our traditions, no matter what the times > > > > > > are. I can be blamed left and right, but the fact of > > > > > > the matter is that it is our culture that I should > > > > > > marry many wives as I can. I cannot allow myself to > > > > > > be forced to follow Western culture". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The controversy is generally seen as a "clash between > > > > > > customs and modernity". According to custom, Mswati may > > > > > > choose a new wife each year from among the thousands of > > > > > > virgins who attend the annual reed dance". Ironically Mswati > > > > > > last year revived a traditional ban on sex with underage > > > > > > girls to combat HIV/AIDS. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > After protests for the abduction of Zena and two other > > > > > > girls, the King fined himself a cow for breaking his own > > > > > > royal decree. (BBC News). He was also quoted as saying that > > > > > > he was prepared to pay cows as fines for selecting the three > > > > > > girls. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Zena's mother is challenging the alleged traditional > > > > > > grabbing of her daughter on the grounds that she was not > > > > > > consulted, did not consent and her child has been taken out > > > > > > of school and therefore was abducted. The King's courtiers > > > > > > (aides) have been arguing that the girl was not abducted but > > > > > > went willingly. "Everything was arranged between the King > > > > > > and the girl and our job was just to pick her at the > > > > > > agreed spot. No force was applied". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Human rights activists have been arguing that > > > > > > "traditionalists should stop "raping" girls in the name of > > > > > > culture, while royals have been insisting that Mswati's > > > > > > selection of Zena to be his bride is a traditional issue > > > > > > that must be resolved through Swazi customs and culture. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gender and human rights activists have noted that Zena is > > > > > > a minor child (18 years) and the abduction is a criminal > > > > > > offence in that it violates > > > > > > > > > > > > 1) Lindiwe Dlamini's rights to custody and guardianship > > > > > > over her minor child and also that; > > > > > > > > > > > > 2) Zena's rights to liberty, freedom of movement, > > > > > > education, choice of marriage partner, right to be a child > > > > > > and bodily integrity. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Most of us are, I am sure, aware that Swaziland is > > > > > > signatory to the SADC Declaration on Gender and Development > > > > > > which commits it in article (vii) to, among other things, > > > > > > protecting the human rights of women and children, which > > > > > > raises a number of concerns regarding this case. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Question for Discussion > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1) Where should culture, custom and tradition > > > > > > stop and individual human rights begin, to ensure the > > > > > === message truncated === > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > > > Everything you'll ever need on one web page > > > > > from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts > > > > > http://uk.my.yahoo.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > Egemtraining mailing list Egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > > > > > http://lists.sn.apc.org/mailman/listinfo/egemtraining > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Egemtraining mailing list > > > > Egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > > > > http://lists.sn.apc.org/mailman/listinfo/egemtraining > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Egemtraining mailing list > > > Egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > > > http://lists.sn.apc.org/mailman/listinfo/egemtraining > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Egemtraining mailing list > > > Egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > > > http://lists.sn.apc.org/mailman/listinfo/egemtraining > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Egemtraining mailing list > Egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > http://lists.sn.apc.org/mailman/listinfo/egemtraining From research@genderlinks.org.za Wed Nov 20 15:24:13 2002 From: research@genderlinks.org.za (research) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 17:24:13 +0200 Subject: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity References: <30C1EF84C3B1D611AE8A008048D7AA3D02849C@SERVER> Message-ID: <000f01c290a8$e2503d10$0e00a8c0@ALICEK> Dear Friends Thanks very mcuh for all these contributions. I think we have raised a number of pertinent issues...a lot of questions and concerns. I hope that our expert on the subject will be able to give us an overarching opinion that will help up sum up our discussions for the week tomorrow. Once more, thanks for these thought provoking contributions and stay online!!!! Meet you tommorrow online!!! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kudzaishe" To: "'research'" ; "Jennifer Joni" ; "Maggie McDonough" ; Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2002 2:35 PM Subject: RE: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > Dear All > > Just some comments on what has been brought up so far. > > In terms of the proposal to change laws, I admit that changing laws is an > important step in the modification of the status quo. However, it should not > be viewed as the be end all. We have to work on changing the attitudes of > all those people (both men and women) who are involved in the oppression of > women. This is not an easy task as it means a complete reversal of belief > systems, practices and positions that have been held since time immemorial. > Furthermore, I have noticed that there have been a number of comments that > Swaziland is a signatory to a child rights bill as well as a women's rights > bill. If the case is like in Zimbabwe, which I suspect it might be, > government can be a signatory of all the conventions under the sky, which > call for the protection of its citizens. However, if these bills are not > integrated into the law and constitution of the country, they are useless. > This is because if for example customary laws are an integral part of the > constitution of the country, the bills are overridden by the constitution of > the country. This is called the protection of the sovereignty of the state. > > I also feel that it is only until the decision making bodies are staffed by > enlightened women that progress can be made towards the advancement of > women's rights the world over. I stress enlightened because we can have 90% > of women in the decision making frameworks who might be the custodians of > culture . We thus need women who fully understand that the rights of women > should be protected for the advancement of the society. > > Just on a final point as my contribution is getting too long, I feel that it > is a bit unfair to state that the Swazi women condone the king's action as > they send their daughters to the reed dance. What should be examined is the > root of the cultural practice and why it is valued to that extent and also > the symbolism of the whole concept. If I am not mistaken only virgins take > part in the reed dance and I suppose if a girl does not take part in the > dance she will be stigmatised (I stand to be corrected on this). Therefore > as we all know most families want to be viewed in the best possible light > and thus they are more or less forced to take part in the activities. The > first step might be for a campaign, in which all (or most) of the Swazi > people take part and refuse to take participate in the ceremony i.e. no > participants, no ceremony. This could be a first step towards the > modification/ getting rid of this ceremony. > > I conclude with a question, we hear that three girls have been taken by the > king, what is the fate so far of the other two girls? > > Thanks for bearing with me > > Kudzai > > -----Original Message----- > From: research [SMTP:research@genderlinks.org.za] > Sent: 19 November 2002 17:27 > To: Jennifer Joni; Maggie McDonough; > egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and > Modernity > > Dear All > Sorry, i just felt I had to say something again. I think Jennifer > and > Maggie's contributions here again raise an importnat point, which i > think I > alluded to in my previous contribution about legal frameworks and > constitutional provisions in the region, and this is precisely that > most > countries in the region have not reformed their laws and legal > frameworks to > reconcile them with international Human Rights instruments that they > have > acceded to or ratified. Maybe the question then should be do we > reform the > laws and frameworks to match international instruments or do we > adapt and > reform international instruments to fit our frameworks?? And I think > this is > especially important when we talk gender equality in Southern > Africa, where > the whole arena of decision-making is generally dominated by men! > What do others think? Lets unpack it!!!! > Alice > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jennifer Joni" > To: "Maggie McDonough" ; "research" > ; > Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 4:52 PM > Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > > > > Maggie, just a pint of clarity. What I was trying to say is that > we get > > caught up in two situations. One is the human rights debate, > which I said > > is meant to determine which of our cultural values should remain, > that is > > does the particular custom /practice pass the constitutional > scrutiny. > > Second, is then the issue about western values that sometimes get > used to > > determine which cultural values should remain. I am not at all > suggesting > > an interrelation between the two concepts. > > Human rights are the best thing that has ever happened to planet > earth, > the > > question is: is using the human rights stick or constitutional > arguments > > relevant in I think we are all trying to uncover here? > > The JJ > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Maggie McDonough > > To: 'Jennifer Joni' ; research > > ; > > Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 4:37 PM > > Subject: RE: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > > > > > > > Hello again, > > > > > > I think Jennifer raised some interesting points here, but there > is one > > point > > > in particular that I would like to address -- that is, the > concept of > > human > > > rights being determined by western/colonial values. I actually > do not > > > accept that human rights is a uniquely western concept. Human > rights > have > > > been invoked by people throughout the world, both historically > and > > > contemporaneously. Human rights formed the basis of the > Non-cooperation > > > Movement AGAINST the British in colonial India. Human rights > have > formed > > > the basis against the authoritarian and military regimes of > Europe and > > > Eurasia. Mass movements (e.g. for gender equality, > environmental > > > protection, etc) have gained untold strength and sustenance from > human > > > rights issues. The list can go on. > > > > > > Anyway, just wanted to add my two cents on this point. > > > > > > Maggie > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Jennifer Joni [mailto:jonij@law.wits.ac.za] > > > Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 6:56 AM > > > To: research; egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > > > Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > > > > > > > > > maqabane > > > > > > Interesting subject, culture and people wanting to use culture > to do > their > > > horrendous, violent deeds. There are a few issues that i always > grapple > > > with when confronted with these questions, which I honestly > believe go > to > > > the root of who we are; I mean those of us who are expected to > respect > our > > > culture. At what point does culture stop being that which we > think > should > > be > > > practiced? Is this determined by the western values that have > been > > > instilled in us since colonialism? Do we (especially in South > Africa) > say > > > that we now have a Constitution which says that conduct that is > in not > in > > > line with the vales in the Constitution, is unconstitutional. > Those > > values > > > being human dignity, equality and blah blah blah. The reason I > am > raising > > > these concerns emanates from a statement made at the Racism > Conference, > > > where one woman stated that we should be cautious of attempts by > the > other > > > -who is insistent and is forcing the people to abrogate their > culture > > > because they think it is oppressive. The yardstick being the > western > > > culture. I am not condoning what Moswati is doing but I would > like to > know > > > what processes need to be put in place to challenge abusive, > insulting > > > practices. Do we for example take stock of all those practices > that we > > think > > > perpetuate violence against women? and then decide and agree how > we are > > > going to change them? Who does this for us? In my Xhosa culture > there > are > > > indeed practices that are demeaning, and cause a lot of hardship > for > > women. > > > How do we attend to this. > > > > > > Salani ngoxolo > > > The JJ > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: lindiwe nkutha > > > To: research ; > > > > > Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 10:59 AM > > > Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > > > > > > > > > > Hi again > > > > > > > > Interestingly as we talk about culture we begin to challaenge > our own > > > > beliefs on what constitutes culture as well as how we > understand the > > > > workings of it. Critical to this realisation is our > understanding and > > > > appreciation of how culture is passed on from generation to > > > > generation, entrenching positions of indivduals and setting > precedents > > > > that future genarations will follow often times unquestioned. > > > > > > > > Bakari raises properly the predicament of chicken and egg > where > > > > culture is concerned, and so we ask, in the formation of > society and > > > > the negotiation > > > of > > > > indivual identities which takes more precedent, the indivual > make up > > > > of members of communities or the culture into which they are > born? And > > > > this > > > is > > > > the real quanandram! > > > > > > > > If we agree that culture exists for amongst other reasons as a > > > > tempalte on which our own indivual identities are formed, we > agree > > > > also that gender roles are difined in culture; the man as > hunter, > > > > gatherer and aggressor > > > and > > > > woman as surbesvient receipient of caring, nurtiring etc etc > are > > > entrenched > > > > also in culture (and not just African cultures, just about all > > > > cultures in fact). So that we base our understanding of the > situation > > > > in Swaziland on this premise, and begin to realise that from > > > > generation to generation, > > > women > > > > in Swaziland would gather for the reed dance, half naked or > almost > > > entirely > > > > completely naked as Bakari says, is no co-incidence, it is > done > > > > because it is a practice that fore ancestors engaged in as > part of > > > > their cultural expression ( to what end now, is what we have > to > > > > grapple with) . > > > > > > > > As a by the way as on my way to my point, I need to say, > Swazi people > > > > and in fact most cultures in Southern Africa did not wear > anything > > > > much before we were introduced to a western way of > dressing...part of > > > > our colonisation...essentially "nudity" was for us never a > tabooo. The > > > > comment on nudity reflects how the western way of being have > > > > influenced how we see ourselves. > > > > > > > > Having said that and getting back on course to my point, I > need to > > > > repeat what I said yesterday, which Columbus picked up on > also, that > > > > "customs and culture can be used to further gains of > individuals". The > > > > genesis of the reed dance a Swazi friend informs me, was for > the > > > > Queen mother, never a parade for the king to choose his wives. > It was > > > > for the queen mother to choose for herself maidens that would > help her > > > > in her homestead . The > > > "king" > > > > has now appropriated this tradition for himself and has turned > it into > > > > a peep show for himself (re-entrenching women's positions as > objects > > > > of gaze...for the titilation of his own self). Is it then the > practice > > > > itself that is wrong or is the "reason" for its continuance > that is > > > > oppressive? > > > and > > > > this is the point of this discussion I mantain. Bakari says > women in > > > > Swaziland ecxept for my namesake Dlamini agree with the > culture and > > > customs. > > > > This statement is not entirely wrong, because if they did not > no > > > > woman would send their daughters to the reed dance, and as > > > > westernised as we > > > have > > > > become mothers in Swaziland would ensure that if their > daughters went > > > > they were fully clothed and so on and so on. > > > > > > > > But why do women continue to send their children? Because > women are in > > > most > > > > cases the custodians of culture, and if we all agree that > culture in > > > > the wrong hands can be oppressive we begin to appreciate how > women > > > > remaining oblivious to their oppression can serve the > interests of > > > > those who seek to keep them oppressed. And right here is where > I agree > > > > fully with Bakari, knowldge is power! Knowledge and > information on the > > > > basis of which change can be negotiated both at an individual > and > > > > community level has been > > > witheld > > > > for far too long from women. Unless and until women > conscientize one > > > another > > > > or are conscientized to a different reality, such abuses as > we see in > > > > Swaziland will continue. Because culture is not static, and is > ever > > > > changing, what will begin to happen is that together, as women > and > > > > men we will begin to build a new culture that defines aptly > who we > > > > want to be. Unless that happens (not only in Swaziland) but > the world > > > > over women will appear and in fact may just continue to > collude in > > > > their own oppression. > > > > > > > > Oh dear I'm afraid I have gone on and on...apologies Alice for > the > > > > lenght > > > of > > > > this, but I guess what I was trying to say in a very round > about way > > > > is > > > (i) > > > > culture is not static and is capable of being changed by > individuals > > > > (ii) women need to be empowred to begin to see the world > differently > > > > so they contribute meaningfully to processses that shape their > lives, > > > > including > > > the > > > > shaping of culture. > > > > > > > > Until next time > > > > > > > > Lindiwe Nkutha > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "bakari machumu" > > > > To: "lindiwe nkutha" ; "research" > > > > ; > > > > Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 6:02 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and > Modernity > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi to all, > > > > > This is kind of a tricky situation where one get > > > > > confused on a situation like a chick and egg, what > > > > > comes first. Can't demacate clearly that, from this > > > > > point on, human rights begins. I think if we are to go > > > > > on with this culture, custom and tradition thing, then > > > > > it should be under equal applications for both Men and > Women. But do > > > > > women as women know their right in Swaziland, i mean with > the > > > > > exception of Lindiwe Dlaminimost Swazi women, (its my guess > i stand > > > > > to be > > > > > corrected) agrees with the culture, customs tradition > > > > > thing todate. I mean, i can't imagine them continuing > parading with > > > > > their upper bodies and most of the under part in such > neckedness, > > > > > that by itself keeps their minds in it.To me that, > consititutes > > > > > negative cultural practices Now, to solve this thing, i > believe on > > > > > agressive, consistent awareness creation.How? that is > > > > > the question > > > > > > > > > > Bakari > > > > > Dar es Salaam > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- lindiwe nkutha wrote: > > > > > > Hi to all > > > > > > > > > > > > Its an interesting topic isn't it'? the convergence > > > > > > of human rights and custom/ culture etc. Ideally > > > > > > these should not be mutually exclusive, me thinks. I think > also > > > > > > that in particular, southern African customs that espouse > or > > > > > > purport to espouse the principle of Ubuntu should not at > all have > > > > > > a problem with human rights. (but then again there are a > lot > > > > > > of things I think that are not necessarily fact). My > > > > > > rationale is if the foundation of the concept of > > > > > > ubuntu which is said to recognise (albeit > > > > > > philosophically) that "I am because you are" is our > > > > > > point of departure then who I am is intrinsically > > > > > > linked to who you are. If you are free, so am I > > > > > > free, if you are oppressed, so am I oppressed, and > > > > > > so on and so on. > > > > > > > > > > > > But because society loves an "other", and > > > > > > patriarchy has worked wonders in "securing women's > positions as > > > > > > others", patriarchy in a heavy disguise as culture has > always been > > > > > > used as the banner under which abuses of human rights are > > > > > > perpetuated. So that the lines were blurred and everytime > we said > > > > > > "I am because you are" and we were speaking as men, > > > > > > it almost felt natural, cultural, in line with dated > > > > > > customs to exclude women. In this context the > > > > > > speaking ""I am...."' is under patriarchy, not > > > > > > considered the speaking female, it is always > > > > > > the"speaking male and this gets termed culturally > > > > > > acceptable practise, but it is not. > > > > > > > > > > > > If we move form the ""ubuntu" premise, we begin to > > > > > > see that the marginalisation and subjugation of > > > > > > women is against the principle said to ground our culture. > If we > > > > > > accept, and perhaps this is one aspect in our "evolution - > > > > > > culturally" that we left behind, the acceptance that the > speaking > > > > > > "I am..." is both male and female, then within culture we > > > > > > begin to see that some of the things that get > > > > > > justified as culture are in fact not cultural, but > > > > > > are patriarchal practices dressed as culture. > > > > > > > > > > > > The king says he will not turn away from his > > > > > > cultural practices no matter what! Selectively so, > > > > > > he sticks to his cultural practices when it suits > > > > > > him, because there are benefits for him. Which is > > > > > > another thing about culture that is worth > > > > > > mentioning. More times than not the most vocal > > > > > > voices on the adoption of culture are those that > > > > > > have a vested interest in the practice at hand. An > > > > > > uncle who needs to "cleanse a widow" will probably > > > > > > be the loudest about upholding culture, even though > > > > > > they may be silent about other aspects of that same > culture. My > > > > > > point being that culture can be used to advance or secure > people's > > > > > > positions. > > > > > > > > > > > > As I sign off, I need to make it clear that I do not think > that > > > > > > culture is all bad. No in fact I appreciate the critical > position > > > > > > that particularly those in countries that were previously > > > > > > colonised are grappling with. A project of recovery of > that > > > > > > which we were before our culture was tempered with, > > > > > > balanced against the reality of the now and who we > > > > > > define ourselves as presently as well as the > > > > > > challenge of self definition into the future of who > > > > > > we want to be. And we sit in a challenging > > > > > > position. The true test for all of us though (me > > > > > > thinks) in assessing what is acceptable as culture > > > > > > and what is not acceptable is whether or not the > > > > > > precise in any way takes away from an individual > > > > > > (and in turn the collective...community ...based on > > > > > > Ubuntu) > > > > > > ability to enjoy to its full extent the experience > > > > > > of being human. > > > > > > > > > > > > Until later > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > From: research > > > > > > To: egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > > > > > > Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 9:47 AM > > > > > > Subject: [Egemtraining] This week's discussion > > > > > > topic: Lets Talk!!! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear All > > > > > > > > > > > > I am sure most of you have been itching to receive > > > > > > the first discussion topic and are ready to roll!!! > > > > > > I have been keenly waiting to start as weel. Below > > > > > > is the discussion topic and the question at the end > > > > > > of the piece. Please remember not to make your > contribution too > > > > > > long. Just comment as briefly as possible to give others a > chance > > > > > > to also share their opinions. Also remember to "reply to > all" so > > > > > > that you do not share your opinion just with me but with > > > > > > all in the network. Happy reading and looking > > > > > > forward to hearing your opinions!!! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Where does culture start and stop, and individual rights > begin? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am sure most of us are aware of the > > > > > > controversial ongoing court case in Swaziland > > > > > > between a mother (Lindiwe Dlamini) and the King (his > > > > > > aides) concerning the abduction of an > > > > > > 18-year-old-child (Zena) Mahlangu for "royal > > > > > > duties". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For those who have not been following the case, > > > > > > the King (who is being sued through his aides, is > > > > > > alleged to have abducted the child from school > > > > > > without her mother's knowledge and consent. Lindiwe > > > > > > wants her child to be returned to her custody and > > > > > > the King has been arguing that the child is being > > > > > > kept at the Royal Guest House to be prepared to be > > > > > > the King's 10th wife. The King was quoted as saying > > > > > > at a press conference, "The whole issue has been > > > > > > blown out of proportion by those who took advantage > > > > > > of trying to destroy our customs and traditions". > > > > > > People may say whatever they want to sy but I vow to > > > > > > stick to our traditions, no matter what the times > > > > > > are. I can be blamed left and right, but the fact of > > > > > > the matter is that it is our culture that I should > > > > > > marry many wives as I can. I cannot allow myself to > > > > > > be forced to follow Western culture". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The controversy is generally seen as a "clash > > > > > > between customs and modernity". According to custom, > > > > > > Mswati may choose a new wife each year from among > > > > > > the thousands of virgins who attend the annual reed > > > > > > dance". Ironically Mswati last year revived a > > > > > > traditional ban on sex with underage girls to combat > > > > > > HIV/AIDS. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > After protests for the abduction of Zena and two > > > > > > other girls, the King fined himself a cow for > > > > > > breaking his own royal decree. (BBC News). He was > > > > > > also quoted as saying that he was prepared to pay > > > > > > cows as fines for selecting the three girls. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Zena's mother is challenging the alleged > > > > > > traditional grabbing of her daughter on the grounds > > > > > > that she was not consulted, did not consent and her > > > > > > child has been taken out of school and therefore was > > > > > > abducted. The King's courtiers (aides) have been > > > > > > arguing that the girl was not abducted but went > > > > > > willingly. "Everything was arranged between the King > > > > > > and the girl and our job was just to pick her at the > > > > > > agreed spot. No force was applied". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Human rights activists have been arguing that > > > > > > "traditionalists should stop "raping" girls in the > > > > > > name of culture, while royals have been insisting > > > > > > that Mswati's selection of Zena to be his bride is a > > > > > > traditional issue that must be resolved through > > > > > > Swazi customs and culture. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gender and human rights activists have noted that > > > > > > Zena is a minor child (18 years) and the abduction > > > > > > is a criminal offence in that it violates > > > > > > > > > > > > 1) Lindiwe Dlamini's rights to custody and > > > > > > guardianship over her minor child and also that; > > > > > > > > > > > > 2) Zena's rights to liberty, freedom of movement, > > > > > > education, choice of marriage partner, right to be a > > > > > > child and bodily integrity. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Most of us are, I am sure, aware that Swaziland is > > > > > > signatory to the SADC Declaration on Gender and > > > > > > Development which commits it in article (vii) to, > > > > > > among other things, protecting the human rights of > > > > > > women and children, which raises a number of > > > > > > concerns regarding this case. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Question for Discussion > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1) Where should culture, custom and tradition > > > > > > stop and individual human rights begin, to ensure > > > > > > the > > > > > === message truncated === > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > > > Everything you'll ever need on one web page > > > > > from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts > > > > > http://uk.my.yahoo.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > Egemtraining mailing list > > > > > Egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > > > > > http://lists.sn.apc.org/mailman/listinfo/egemtraining > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Egemtraining mailing list > > > > Egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > > > > http://lists.sn.apc.org/mailman/listinfo/egemtraining > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Egemtraining mailing list > > > Egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > > > http://lists.sn.apc.org/mailman/listinfo/egemtraining > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Egemtraining mailing list > > > Egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > > > http://lists.sn.apc.org/mailman/listinfo/egemtraining > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Egemtraining mailing list > Egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > http://lists.sn.apc.org/mailman/listinfo/egemtraining > From llindiwe@hotmail.com Thu Nov 21 09:32:08 2002 From: llindiwe@hotmail.com (lindiwe nkutha) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 11:32:08 +0200 Subject: [Egemtraining] testing Message-ID:




The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* From research@genderlinks.org.za Thu Nov 21 09:52:44 2002 From: research@genderlinks.org.za (research) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 11:52:44 +0200 Subject: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity References: <3DDA9E1A.18990.12DC78A@localhost> Message-ID: <003a01c29143$beb451c0$0e00a8c0@ALICEK> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0037_01C29154.80DC3230 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear All Hope your day has been fine this far! Thanks Lindiwe Nkonyane for this = information. I find it quite interesting that one of the reed dance's = aims is to "preserve girls' chastity! It just ste me thinking. What = ceremony is there to preserve boys' chastity and if none, why girls?? = These are some of the cultural issues that I think our modern day = societies need to grapple with! Are we saying it is girls who are = supposed to be virgins when they marry and for boys it does not matter? = What do others think? Lets talk!! Alice=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: ndzundzu=20 To: research=20 Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 8:24 PM Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity=20 Hi people! The reason parents send their daughters to the reed dance is not = necessarily to parade them before the King but to fulfil a cultural = practice that has been going on eversince.=20 The aims of the ceremony are to: 1. preserve giris' chastity 2. provide tribute labour for the Queen mother 3. produce solidarity by working together. However, most girls enjoy this ceremony because they get to fool = around with their peers. The ceremony also coincides with the = international trade fair so most of them get a chance to sneak away to = the festivities of the fair (which would not be the case at home..that's = what dealing with kids is all about!) Well, in some communities if you fail to send your daughter to the = dance, you are find (a cow or anything to that value) so parents are = left with no choice. The girls are actually proud of wearing the tindlamu (beaded mini = skirts) because they feel that that's the only platform they have where = they can show off their chastity. ------=_NextPart_000_0037_01C29154.80DC3230 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear All
Hope your day has been fine this far! = Thanks=20 Lindiwe Nkonyane for this information. I find it quite interesting that = one=20 of the reed dance's aims is to "preserve girls' chastity! It just = ste me=20 thinking. What ceremony is there to preserve boys' chastity and if none, = why=20 girls?? These are some of the cultural issues that I think our = modern day=20 societies need to grapple with! Are we saying it is girls who are = supposed to be=20 virgins when they marry and for boys it does not matter? What do = others=20 think? Lets talk!!
Alice 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 ndzundzu
Sent: Tuesday, November 19, = 2002 8:24=20 PM
Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] = Clash between=20 customs and Modernity

Hi=20 people!

The reason = parents send=20 their daughters to the reed dance is not necessarily to parade them = before the=20 King but to fulfil a cultural practice that has been going on = eversince.=20

The aims of the = ceremony are=20 to:
1. preserve giris' chastity
2. provide tribute labour for = the Queen=20 mother
3. produce solidarity by working together.

However, most = girls enjoy=20 this ceremony because they get to fool around with their peers. The = ceremony=20 also coincides with the international trade fair so most of them get a = chance=20 to sneak away to the festivities of the fair (which would not be the = case at=20 home..that's what dealing with kids is all about!)

Well, in some = communities if=20 you fail to send your daughter to the dance, you are find (a cow or = anything=20 to that value) so parents are left with no choice.

The girls are=20 actually proud of wearing the tindlamu (beaded mini skirts) = because=20 they feel that that's the only platform they have where they can show = off=20 their chastity.
------=_NextPart_000_0037_01C29154.80DC3230-- From Doo Aphane" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C2918D.06D16E40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 =20 Dear All, =20 I have read with keen interest about the different positions assumed on = the question, where should culture, custom and tradition stop and = individual rights begin, to ensure the enjoyment of these rights = especially by women. =20 Well, well what an interesting and timely topic. =20 Let me begin by stating my position generally on the topic and then = specifically on the case in point. Strictly speaking there should be no = clash between custom and modernity. I am hoping that modernity is used = within the human rights ambit. The two should not clash because custom = is by its nature dynamic so that it can keep up with servicing the needs = of the people. Human rights as we know is about inalienable rights that = we all have by virtue of belonging to the human family. However, that = is not to deny that there is a clash between customs of the past that = are imposed out of context to present day situations. By customs of the = past I am referring to those customs which are imposed on society in = their "frozen" state. Generally, speaking Southern African customs are = based on principles of humanity "buntfu, ubuntu,botho". The concept of = "buntfu" is based on reciprocation of respect. I subscribe to the = nation that human rights are as much an African concept as they are a = western one. Our culture embodies strong reqirements and expectations = of respect of the next person and treating them humanly. If custom was = not being manipulated by those who are in positions of power it would be = dynamic and service the interest of the people without being seen to = clash with modernity. =20 Specific on the Swazi case: =20 The High Court of Swaziland was faced with an abduction case brought by = Lindiwe Dlamini the mother of an 18 year old girl born out of marriage, = making the mother sole custodian and guardian in terms of our general = law. However, in terms of custom the rightful custodians and guardians = of the family of the late father of Zena.=20 =20 Lindiwe in a way representative of Swazi mothers out there was insisting = on her rights as a custodian and guardian of the minor girl. The case = brought out the tensions that exist between customary law and general = law. The arguments that were brought by the defence through out were = not answering to the abduction and claim for return of the 18 year old. = They were raising all sorts of reasons why first and foremost the mother = does not even have a standing to be bringing up the case. =20 Some of you have asked why girls even bother to go to the reed dance and = dance bear breasted? Ms. Lindiwe Nkonyane has helped by clarifying what = the reed dance is about and wish to further shed light on the question = on the concern about female virginity versus male or rather both. =20 =20 First here I wish to agree with the one who said we can not wish custom = away. Indeeed we cant, but we can move on with our customs by viewing = the rationale behind them, capitalise on their good intentions and=20 =20 =20 =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C2918D.06D16E40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 

 

Dear All,

 

I have read with keen interest about = the different=20 positions assumed on the question, =20 where should culture, custom and tradition stop and individual = rights=20 begin, to ensure the enjoyment of these rights especially by=20 women.

 

Well, well what an interesting and = timely=20 topic.

 

Let me begin by stating my position = generally on=20 the topic and then specifically on the case in point.  Strictly speaking there should = be no=20 clash between custom and modernity. =20 I am hoping that modernity is used within the human rights = ambit.  The two should not clash = because custom=20 is by its nature dynamic so that it can keep up with servicing the needs = of the=20 people. Human rights as we know is about inalienable rights that we all = have by=20 virtue of belonging to the human family. =20 However, that is not to deny that there is a clash between = customs of the=20 past that are imposed out of context to present day situations.  By customs of the past I am = referring to=20 those customs which are imposed on society in their =93frozen=94 state. =  Generally, speaking Southern = African=20 customs are based on principles of humanity =93buntfu, = ubuntu,botho=94.  The concept of =93buntfu=94 is = based on=20 reciprocation of respect.  = I=20 subscribe to the nation that human rights are as much an African concept = as they=20 are a western one.  Our = culture=20 embodies strong reqirements and expectations of respect of the next = person and=20 treating them humanly.  If = custom=20 was not being manipulated by those who are in positions of power it = would be=20 dynamic and service the interest of the people without being seen to = clash with=20 modernity.

 

Specific on the Swazi = case:

 

The High Court of Swaziland was faced = with an=20 abduction case brought by Lindiwe Dlamini the mother of an 18 year old = girl born=20 out of marriage, making the mother sole custodian and guardian in terms = of our=20 general law.  However, in = terms of=20 custom the rightful custodians and guardians of the family of the late = father of=20 Zena.

 

Lindiwe in a way representative of = Swazi mothers=20 out there was insisting on her rights as a custodian and guardian of the = minor=20 girl.  The case brought = out the=20 tensions that exist between customary law and general law.  The arguments that were = brought by the=20 defence through out were not answering to the abduction and claim for = return of=20 the 18 year old.  They = were raising=20 all sorts of reasons why first and foremost the mother does not even = have a=20 standing to be bringing up the case.

 

Some of you have asked why girls = even bother=20 to go to the reed dance and dance bear breasted?  Ms. Lindiwe Nkonyane has = helped by=20 clarifying what the reed dance is about and wish to further shed light = on the=20 question on the concern about female virginity versus male or rather = both. 

 

First here I wish to agree with the = one who said=20 we can not wish custom away. =20 Indeeed we cant, but we can move on with our customs by viewing = the=20 rationale behind them, capitalise on their good intentions and=20

 

 

 

 

------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C2918D.06D16E40-- From ebasadi" Message-ID: <000901c291ed$b76c4d00$8a04fea9@peter> Good morning to you all Yes it should beggin with interogating the notions of culture and its meaning in the context of contemporary society. Of course its culture but what should be emphasised at this point in time of our struggle for gender equality is HUMAN RIGHTS-it is through this that we can restore in humanity the love for others and oneself. It is through this that we can begin to instill full potential amongst our dear females that will tell them that your full human beings not clients as the the partriarchy and liberals want us to believe. It then that we can begin to talk about other issues like culture and its role in submerging others in the process. The whole querstion of space that women need to realise and control their bodies cannot be determined by external factors but instead we need to relly on intertnal factors to challenge issues of culture that interfear with the precess- its about women, young girls internalising the issues og their right to exist and not existing for others- such as men. Rather its about they women and young girls developing very strong sense of private sapce and the need to express themslves with out being constrained by extetrnal factors like customs, rituals and cultural practices. We hope that we will make women and young girls interpret their environment from inside as well as from outside- its the pedagogy that wer still lack in our revulotionary journey. Peter Tshukudu Emang BASADI ----- Original Message ----- From: bakari machumu To: research ; Jennifer Joni ; Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2002 5:32 PM Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > Dear All, > Alice is raising yet another face of our leaders when > she says the King signed the UN Convention on the > Rights of the Child, and SADC's Declaration on Gender > and Development which ofcourse oblige him to > protect the rights of children. But it is on of those > things some of our leaders are just forced to sign > when they are those summits, however, they always > never live to it. An not suprised by the way things > are now, coz this is reflected in the topic in > discussion. In short it is the lack of proper > prioritisation (for the public interest), no wonder a > leader vows spend $ 40 million on acquiring a jet, in > a country where annual health budget is $ 20 million > per annum! talking about prioritisation, who are the > most affected group in thge society (healthwise) I > guess its children. But the declarations are just one > wastage of efforts if Africa leaders can not push each > other in keeping their promises. Otherwise, if our > reprersentatives (MPs) can let the governments know > that they will not ratify and agreement, protocol, > declaration unless the govt comes up with a set of > action plan... > Bakari > > > --- research wrote: > > Dear All > > > > Where do I start!! its really getting very > > interesting and challenging, > > too!! Thanks so much to all of you who have cooked > > quite a number of bones > > of contention!! Bakari's opinion that women seem to > > enjoy and agree to be > > subjected to such cultural exploitations; Lindiwe > > Nkutha's view that yes, to > > some extent they do BUT lets also look beyond the > > surface and interrogate > > WHY they seem to accept something which does not > > seem to benefit them in any > > way, raising issues of socialization and culture as > > passed from generation > > to generation; Lindiwe Nkonyane (we really have to > > distinguish the Lindiwes > > here, otherwise we will get mixed up!!!(smile)) who > > raised another important > > issue that the way around it would be to ensure > > statutory and constitutional > > guarantees to protect women and children. A > > proposition made by Maggie, > > which I think also needs for us to further reflect > > on is that where culture > > and custom clashes with individual rights, the > > course to take should be to > > apply the basic human rights principles of > > non-disrimination, non-oppression > > and fairness and more importantly, Educating women > > as a priority! Maybe we > > can reflect a bit more on how for instance legal > > reforms and constitutional > > guarantees can turn around the situation, especially > > bearing in mind that > > most law makers in the region are indeed men (they > > are the majority in most > > Parliaments), and even where laws do exist, there > > does not seem to be a > > clear framework and mechanisms to fully implement > > them. For instance, King > > Mswati signed both the UN Convention on the Rights > > of the Child, and the > > SADC Declaration on Gender and Development, both of > > which oblige him to > > protect the rights of children. To me, the issue > > then becomes a matter of > > reconciling these international instruments with > > customary and cultural > > practices, and making sure that there is a legal > > framework to guarantee the > > full implementation of the provisions of such > > instruments. What do others > > think about this?? Lets continue to talk!!!!!! > > > > Alice > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Jennifer Joni" > > To: "research" ; > > > > Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 1:55 PM > > Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs > > and Modernity > > > > > > > maqabane > > > > > > Interesting subject, culture and people wanting to > > use culture to do their > > > horrendous, violent deeds. There are a few issues > > that i always grapple > > > with when confronted with these questions, which I > > honestly believe go to > > > the root of who we are; I mean those of us who are > > expected to respect our > > > culture. > > > At what point does culture stop being that which > > we think should be > > > practiced? Is this determined by the western > > values that have been > > > instilled in us since colonialism? Do we > > (especially in South Africa) say > > > that we now have a Constitution which says that > > conduct that is in not in > > > line with the vales in the Constitution, is > > unconstitutional. Those > > values > > > being human dignity, equality and blah blah blah. > > > The reason I am raising these concerns emanates > > from a statement made at > > the > > > Racism Conference, where one woman stated that we > > should be cautious of > > > attempts by the other -who is insistent and is > > forcing the people to > > > abrogate their culture because they think it is > > oppressive. The yardstick > > > being the western culture. > > > I am not condoning what Moswati is doing but I > > would like to know what > > > processes need to be put in place to challenge > > abusive, insulting > > practices. > > > Do we for example take stock of all those > > practices that we think > > perpetuate > > > violence against women? and then decide and agree > > how we are going to > > change > > > them? Who does this for us? > > > In my Xhosa culture there are indeed practices > > that are demeaning, and > > cause > > > a lot of hardship for women. How do we attend to > > this. > > > > > > Salani ngoxolo > > > The JJ > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: lindiwe nkutha > > > To: research ; > > > > > Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 10:59 AM > > > Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs > > and Modernity > > > > > > > > > > Hi again > > > > > > > > Interestingly as we talk about culture we begin > > to challaenge our own > > > > beliefs on what constitutes culture as well as > > how we understand the > > > > workings of it. Critical to this realisation is > > our understanding and > > > > appreciation of how culture is passed on from > > generation to generation, > > > > entrenching positions of indivduals and setting > > precedents that future > > > > genarations will follow often times > > unquestioned. > > > > > > > > Bakari raises properly the predicament of > > chicken and egg where culture > > is > > > > concerned, and so we ask, in the formation of > > society and the > > negotiation > > > of > > > > indivual identities which takes more precedent, > > the indivual make up of > > > > members of communities or the culture into which > > they are born? And this > > > is > > > > the real quanandram! > > > > > > > > If we agree that culture exists for amongst > > other reasons as a tempalte > > on > > > > which our own indivual identities are formed, we > > agree also that gender > > > > roles are difined in culture; the man as hunter, > > gatherer and aggressor > > > and > > > > woman as surbesvient receipient of caring, > > nurtiring etc etc are > > > entrenched > > > > also in culture (and not just African cultures, > > just about all cultures > > in > > > > fact). So that we base our understanding of the > > situation in Swaziland > > on > > > > this premise, and begin to realise that from > > generation to generation, > > > women > > > > in Swaziland would gather for the reed dance, > > half naked or almost > > > entirely > > > > completely naked as Bakari says, is no > > co-incidence, it is done because > > it > > > > is a practice that fore ancestors engaged in as > > part of their cultural > > > > expression ( to what end now, is what we have to > > grapple with) . > > > > > > > > As a by the way as on my way to my point, I > > need to say, Swazi people > > and > > > > in fact most cultures in Southern Africa did not > > wear anything much > > before > > > > we were introduced to a western way of > > dressing...part of our > > > === message truncated === > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Everything you'll ever need on one web page > from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts > http://uk.my.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > Egemtraining mailing list > Egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > http://lists.sn.apc.org/mailman/listinfo/egemtraining > From ebasadi" <000c01c28fe1$9ae04dc0$83228d92@wits.ac.za> Message-ID: <007a01c291f9$94ef7340$8a04fea9@peter> Yes the concept of HUMAN RIGHTS have to be grounded in relevant values if it has to make a change and a difference. It about perceptions of of one's environmentr and other rooted practices that over time and apace need to be interogated, but it would not help to polirise it acoording eithr an African Philosophy or European Philosophy. The debate has to be open and interogate i wide array of issues relating to Traditional Agalitarianism- but within the context of soxieties in Africa- Remember women ib most African settings are still regarded as clients. hence their right are sibsimed in the wider notion of minors- well this bull... Bur we need to understand the theoritical underpinnings as well so as to come with something sustainable. Peter Tshukudu Emang BASADI ----- Original Message ----- From: Ms Teboho Motebele To: Maggie McDonough ; 'Jennifer Joni' ; research ; Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 5:37 PM Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > Hi to you all, > > Just thought I should add my 2c worth, having read all your interesting > comments. > > I agree with Maggie that the concept of "human rights" should not be > regarded as being of western origin/ influence. If we understand what > human rights are i.e.that they are rights which are inalienable and apply to > all human beings, because they ARE human beings, there could be no doubt > that the concept of human rights should enjoy universal support. The > desire to be treat my fellow human being the way I want to be treated is a > fundamental principle I live by. > > Having said that, I do not believe that we should allow ourselves to be > influenced by the west in determining what we regard as being right for us, > not only as Africans but as African women. I also believe that we should > not give too much credit to the Western world for having alerted us to "what > is wrong " with our cultural practices. What works for the west won't > necessarily work for us. It is for us to determine for ourselves what is or > is not acceptable to us. > > > It is my view and I am in agreement with Lindiwe here, that culture is not > static. Culture merely represents (or should represent) public opinion at a > particular point in time. It can be moulded to serve the needs of us all. > By not voicing out outrage at the behaviour of the King, the women in > Swaziland are sending out a wrong message...i.e. that culture as interpreted > by the king, is acceptable to them. It would appear ( and I am open to > correction) that women in Swaziland regard it as an honour to have one's > child chosen by the king as a wife...even if she will be the 11th wife. > Surely if they objected to this practice, they would not be sending their > daughters to this "reed" dance. Why is that???Can we assume that these woman > don't know any better? > > > I am probably not articulating this clearly enough.Be that as it may, I > hope that someone will be able to follow my train of thought. > > bye for now > > Teboho > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Maggie McDonough" > To: "'Jennifer Joni'" ; "research" > ; > Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 4:37 PM > Subject: RE: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > > > > Hello again, > > > > I think Jennifer raised some interesting points here, but there is one > point > > in particular that I would like to address -- that is, the concept of > human > > rights being determined by western/colonial values. I actually do not > > accept that human rights is a uniquely western concept. Human rights have > > been invoked by people throughout the world, both historically and > > contemporaneously. Human rights formed the basis of the Non-cooperation > > Movement AGAINST the British in colonial India. Human rights have formed > > the basis against the authoritarian and military regimes of Europe and > > Eurasia. Mass movements (e.g. for gender equality, environmental > > protection, etc) have gained untold strength and sustenance from human > > rights issues. The list can go on. > > > > Anyway, just wanted to add my two cents on this point. > > > > Maggie > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Jennifer Joni [mailto:jonij@law.wits.ac.za] > > Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 6:56 AM > > To: research; egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > > Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > > > > > > maqabane > > > > Interesting subject, culture and people wanting to use culture to do their > > horrendous, violent deeds. There are a few issues that i always grapple > > with when confronted with these questions, which I honestly believe go to > > the root of who we are; I mean those of us who are expected to respect our > > culture. At what point does culture stop being that which we think should > be > > practiced? Is this determined by the western values that have been > > instilled in us since colonialism? Do we (especially in South Africa) say > > that we now have a Constitution which says that conduct that is in not in > > line with the vales in the Constitution, is unconstitutional. Those > values > > being human dignity, equality and blah blah blah. The reason I am raising > > these concerns emanates from a statement made at the Racism Conference, > > where one woman stated that we should be cautious of attempts by the other > > -who is insistent and is forcing the people to abrogate their culture > > because they think it is oppressive. The yardstick being the western > > culture. I am not condoning what Moswati is doing but I would like to know > > what processes need to be put in place to challenge abusive, insulting > > practices. Do we for example take stock of all those practices that we > think > > perpetuate violence against women? and then decide and agree how we are > > going to change them? Who does this for us? In my Xhosa culture there are > > indeed practices that are demeaning, and cause a lot of hardship for > women. > > How do we attend to this. > > > > Salani ngoxolo > > The JJ > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: lindiwe nkutha > > To: research ; > > > Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 10:59 AM > > Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > > > > > > > Hi again > > > > > > Interestingly as we talk about culture we begin to challaenge our own > > > beliefs on what constitutes culture as well as how we understand the > > > workings of it. Critical to this realisation is our understanding and > > > appreciation of how culture is passed on from generation to > > > generation, entrenching positions of indivduals and setting precedents > > > that future genarations will follow often times unquestioned. > > > > > > Bakari raises properly the predicament of chicken and egg where > > > culture is concerned, and so we ask, in the formation of society and > > > the negotiation > > of > > > indivual identities which takes more precedent, the indivual make up > > > of members of communities or the culture into which they are born? And > > > this > > is > > > the real quanandram! > > > > > > If we agree that culture exists for amongst other reasons as a > > > tempalte on which our own indivual identities are formed, we agree > > > also that gender roles are difined in culture; the man as hunter, > > > gatherer and aggressor > > and > > > woman as surbesvient receipient of caring, nurtiring etc etc are > > entrenched > > > also in culture (and not just African cultures, just about all > > > cultures in fact). So that we base our understanding of the situation > > > in Swaziland on this premise, and begin to realise that from > > > generation to generation, > > women > > > in Swaziland would gather for the reed dance, half naked or almost > > entirely > > > completely naked as Bakari says, is no co-incidence, it is done > > > because it is a practice that fore ancestors engaged in as part of > > > their cultural expression ( to what end now, is what we have to > > > grapple with) . > > > > > > As a by the way as on my way to my point, I need to say, Swazi people > > > and in fact most cultures in Southern Africa did not wear anything > > > much before we were introduced to a western way of dressing...part of > > > our colonisation...essentially "nudity" was for us never a tabooo. The > > > comment on nudity reflects how the western way of being have > > > influenced how we see ourselves. > > > > > > Having said that and getting back on course to my point, I need to > > > repeat what I said yesterday, which Columbus picked up on also, that > > > "customs and culture can be used to further gains of individuals". The > > > genesis of the reed dance a Swazi friend informs me, was for the > > > Queen mother, never a parade for the king to choose his wives. It was > > > for the queen mother to choose for herself maidens that would help her > > > in her homestead . The > > "king" > > > has now appropriated this tradition for himself and has turned it into > > > a peep show for himself (re-entrenching women's positions as objects > > > of gaze...for the titilation of his own self). Is it then the practice > > > itself that is wrong or is the "reason" for its continuance that is > > > oppressive? > > and > > > this is the point of this discussion I mantain. Bakari says women in > > > Swaziland ecxept for my namesake Dlamini agree with the culture and > > customs. > > > This statement is not entirely wrong, because if they did not no > > > woman would send their daughters to the reed dance, and as > > > westernised as we > > have > > > become mothers in Swaziland would ensure that if their daughters went > > > they were fully clothed and so on and so on. > > > > > > But why do women continue to send their children? Because women are in > > most > > > cases the custodians of culture, and if we all agree that culture in > > > the wrong hands can be oppressive we begin to appreciate how women > > > remaining oblivious to their oppression can serve the interests of > > > those who seek to keep them oppressed. And right here is where I agree > > > fully with Bakari, knowldge is power! Knowledge and information on the > > > basis of which change can be negotiated both at an individual and > > > community level has been > > witheld > > > for far too long from women. Unless and until women conscientize one > > another > > > or are conscientized to a different reality, such abuses as we see in > > > Swaziland will continue. Because culture is not static, and is ever > > > changing, what will begin to happen is that together, as women and > > > men we will begin to build a new culture that defines aptly who we > > > want to be. Unless that happens (not only in Swaziland) but the world > > > over women will appear and in fact may just continue to collude in > > > their own oppression. > > > > > > Oh dear I'm afraid I have gone on and on...apologies Alice for the > > > lenght > > of > > > this, but I guess what I was trying to say in a very round about way > > > is > > (i) > > > culture is not static and is capable of being changed by individuals > > > (ii) women need to be empowred to begin to see the world differently > > > so they contribute meaningfully to processses that shape their lives, > > > including > > the > > > shaping of culture. > > > > > > Until next time > > > > > > Lindiwe Nkutha > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "bakari machumu" > > > To: "lindiwe nkutha" ; "research" > > > ; > > > Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 6:02 PM > > > Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > > > > > > > > > > Hi to all, > > > > This is kind of a tricky situation where one get > > > > confused on a situation like a chick and egg, what > > > > comes first. Can't demacate clearly that, from this > > > > point on, human rights begins. I think if we are to go > > > > on with this culture, custom and tradition thing, then > > > > it should be under equal applications for both Men and Women. But do > > > > women as women know their right in Swaziland, i mean with the > > > > exception of Lindiwe Dlaminimost Swazi women, (its my guess i stand > > > > to be > > > > corrected) agrees with the culture, customs tradition > > > > thing todate. I mean, i can't imagine them continuing parading with > > > > their upper bodies and most of the under part in such neckedness, > > > > that by itself keeps their minds in it.To me that, consititutes > > > > negative cultural practices Now, to solve this thing, i believe on > > > > agressive, consistent awareness creation.How? that is > > > > the question > > > > > > > > Bakari > > > > Dar es Salaam > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- lindiwe nkutha wrote: > > > > > Hi to all > > > > > > > > > > Its an interesting topic isn't it'? the convergence > > > > > of human rights and custom/ culture etc. Ideally > > > > > these should not be mutually exclusive, me thinks. I think also > > > > > that in particular, southern African customs that espouse or > > > > > purport to espouse the principle of Ubuntu should not at all have > > > > > a problem with human rights. (but then again there are a lot > > > > > of things I think that are not necessarily fact). My > > > > > rationale is if the foundation of the concept of > > > > > ubuntu which is said to recognise (albeit > > > > > philosophically) that "I am because you are" is our > > > > > point of departure then who I am is intrinsically > > > > > linked to who you are. If you are free, so am I > > > > > free, if you are oppressed, so am I oppressed, and > > > > > so on and so on. > > > > > > > > > > But because society loves an "other", and > > > > > patriarchy has worked wonders in "securing women's positions as > > > > > others", patriarchy in a heavy disguise as culture has always been > > > > > used as the banner under which abuses of human rights are > > > > > perpetuated. So that the lines were blurred and everytime we said > > > > > "I am because you are" and we were speaking as men, > > > > > it almost felt natural, cultural, in line with dated > > > > > customs to exclude women. In this context the > > > > > speaking ""I am...."' is under patriarchy, not > > > > > considered the speaking female, it is always > > > > > the"speaking male and this gets termed culturally > > > > > acceptable practise, but it is not. > > > > > > > > > > If we move form the ""ubuntu" premise, we begin to > > > > > see that the marginalisation and subjugation of > > > > > women is against the principle said to ground our culture. If we > > > > > accept, and perhaps this is one aspect in our "evolution - > > > > > culturally" that we left behind, the acceptance that the speaking > > > > > "I am..." is both male and female, then within culture we > > > > > begin to see that some of the things that get > > > > > justified as culture are in fact not cultural, but > > > > > are patriarchal practices dressed as culture. > > > > > > > > > > The king says he will not turn away from his > > > > > cultural practices no matter what! Selectively so, > > > > > he sticks to his cultural practices when it suits > > > > > him, because there are benefits for him. Which is > > > > > another thing about culture that is worth > > > > > mentioning. More times than not the most vocal > > > > > voices on the adoption of culture are those that > > > > > have a vested interest in the practice at hand. An > > > > > uncle who needs to "cleanse a widow" will probably > > > > > be the loudest about upholding culture, even though > > > > > they may be silent about other aspects of that same culture. My > > > > > point being that culture can be used to advance or secure people's > > > > > positions. > > > > > > > > > > As I sign off, I need to make it clear that I do not think that > > > > > culture is all bad. No in fact I appreciate the critical position > > > > > that particularly those in countries that were previously > > > > > colonised are grappling with. A project of recovery of that > > > > > which we were before our culture was tempered with, > > > > > balanced against the reality of the now and who we > > > > > define ourselves as presently as well as the > > > > > challenge of self definition into the future of who > > > > > we want to be. And we sit in a challenging > > > > > position. The true test for all of us though (me > > > > > thinks) in assessing what is acceptable as culture > > > > > and what is not acceptable is whether or not the > > > > > precise in any way takes away from an individual > > > > > (and in turn the collective...community ...based on > > > > > Ubuntu) > > > > > ability to enjoy to its full extent the experience > > > > > of being human. > > > > > > > > > > Until later > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: research > > > > > To: egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > > > > > Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 9:47 AM > > > > > Subject: [Egemtraining] This week's discussion > > > > > topic: Lets Talk!!! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear All > > > > > > > > > > I am sure most of you have been itching to receive > > > > > the first discussion topic and are ready to roll!!! > > > > > I have been keenly waiting to start as weel. Below > > > > > is the discussion topic and the question at the end > > > > > of the piece. Please remember not to make your contribution too > > > > > long. Just comment as briefly as possible to give others a chance > > > > > to also share their opinions. Also remember to "reply to all" so > > > > > that you do not share your opinion just with me but with > > > > > all in the network. Happy reading and looking > > > > > forward to hearing your opinions!!! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Where does culture start and stop, and individual rights begin? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am sure most of us are aware of the > > > > > controversial ongoing court case in Swaziland > > > > > between a mother (Lindiwe Dlamini) and the King (his > > > > > aides) concerning the abduction of an > > > > > 18-year-old-child (Zena) Mahlangu for "royal > > > > > duties". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For those who have not been following the case, > > > > > the King (who is being sued through his aides, is > > > > > alleged to have abducted the child from school > > > > > without her mother's knowledge and consent. Lindiwe > > > > > wants her child to be returned to her custody and > > > > > the King has been arguing that the child is being > > > > > kept at the Royal Guest House to be prepared to be > > > > > the King's 10th wife. The King was quoted as saying > > > > > at a press conference, "The whole issue has been > > > > > blown out of proportion by those who took advantage > > > > > of trying to destroy our customs and traditions". > > > > > People may say whatever they want to sy but I vow to > > > > > stick to our traditions, no matter what the times > > > > > are. I can be blamed left and right, but the fact of > > > > > the matter is that it is our culture that I should > > > > > marry many wives as I can. I cannot allow myself to > > > > > be forced to follow Western culture". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The controversy is generally seen as a "clash > > > > > between customs and modernity". According to custom, > > > > > Mswati may choose a new wife each year from among > > > > > the thousands of virgins who attend the annual reed > > > > > dance". Ironically Mswati last year revived a > > > > > traditional ban on sex with underage girls to combat > > > > > HIV/AIDS. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > After protests for the abduction of Zena and two > > > > > other girls, the King fined himself a cow for > > > > > breaking his own royal decree. (BBC News). He was > > > > > also quoted as saying that he was prepared to pay > > > > > cows as fines for selecting the three girls. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Zena's mother is challenging the alleged > > > > > traditional grabbing of her daughter on the grounds > > > > > that she was not consulted, did not consent and her > > > > > child has been taken out of school and therefore was > > > > > abducted. The King's courtiers (aides) have been > > > > > arguing that the girl was not abducted but went > > > > > willingly. "Everything was arranged between the King > > > > > and the girl and our job was just to pick her at the > > > > > agreed spot. No force was applied". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Human rights activists have been arguing that > > > > > "traditionalists should stop "raping" girls in the > > > > > name of culture, while royals have been insisting > > > > > that Mswati's selection of Zena to be his bride is a > > > > > traditional issue that must be resolved through > > > > > Swazi customs and culture. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gender and human rights activists have noted that > > > > > Zena is a minor child (18 years) and the abduction > > > > > is a criminal offence in that it violates > > > > > > > > > > 1) Lindiwe Dlamini's rights to custody and > > > > > guardianship over her minor child and also that; > > > > > > > > > > 2) Zena's rights to liberty, freedom of movement, > > > > > education, choice of marriage partner, right to be a > > > > > child and bodily integrity. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Most of us are, I am sure, aware that Swaziland is > > > > > signatory to the SADC Declaration on Gender and > > > > > Development which commits it in article (vii) to, > > > > > among other things, protecting the human rights of > > > > > women and children, which raises a number of > > > > > concerns regarding this case. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Question for Discussion > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1) Where should culture, custom and tradition > > > > > stop and individual human rights begin, to ensure > > > > > the > > > > === message truncated === > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > > Everything you'll ever need on one web page > > > > from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts > > > > http://uk.my.yahoo.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Egemtraining mailing list > > > > Egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > > > > http://lists.sn.apc.org/mailman/listinfo/egemtraining > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Egemtraining mailing list > > > Egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > > > http://lists.sn.apc.org/mailman/listinfo/egemtraining > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Egemtraining mailing list > > Egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > > http://lists.sn.apc.org/mailman/listinfo/egemtraining > > _______________________________________________ > > Egemtraining mailing list > > Egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > > http://lists.sn.apc.org/mailman/listinfo/egemtraining > > > > _______________________________________________ > Egemtraining mailing list > Egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > http://lists.sn.apc.org/mailman/listinfo/egemtraining > From research@genderlinks.org.za Fri Nov 22 08:10:26 2002 From: research@genderlinks.org.za (research) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 10:10:26 +0200 Subject: [Egemtraining] re: Clash between customs and modernity References: <00ef01c29130$30018960$0f00a8c0@MOTH> Message-ID: <005201c291fe$9d8a6a50$0e00a8c0@ALICEK> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_004F_01C2920F.607832D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear All Thanks very much Doo for this. I do trust that we ahve all received the = contribution from Doo Aphane, an expert in gender and the law and also = Coordinator of the organization that has been leading advocacy for law = reforms and interogating culture, custom and tradition in Swaziland. She = has given an overarching view of the issue. We are all free to raise = with her follow up questions, issues for further clarification and = comments on her summary before we wrap up this week's discussion and we = share the summary. Lets hear your reactions!! Alice =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Doo Aphane=20 To: egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org=20 Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 6:37 PM Subject: [Egemtraining] re: Clash between customs and modernity =20 =20 Dear All, =20 I have read with keen interest about the different positions assumed = on the question, where should culture, custom and tradition stop and = individual rights begin, to ensure the enjoyment of these rights = especially by women. =20 Well, well what an interesting and timely topic. =20 Let me begin by stating my position generally on the topic and then = specifically on the case in point. Strictly speaking there should be no = clash between custom and modernity. I am hoping that modernity is used = within the human rights ambit. The two should not clash because custom = is by its nature dynamic so that it can keep up with servicing the needs = of the people. Human rights as we know is about inalienable rights that = we all have by virtue of belonging to the human family. However, that = is not to deny that there is a clash between customs of the past that = are imposed out of context to present day situations. By customs of the = past I am referring to those customs which are imposed on society in = their "frozen" state. Generally, speaking Southern African customs are = based on principles of humanity "buntfu, ubuntu,botho". The concept of = "buntfu" is based on reciprocation of respect. I subscribe to the = nation that human rights are as much an African concept as they are a = western one. Our culture embodies strong reqirements and expectations = of respect of the next person and treating them humanly. If custom was = not being manipulated by those who are in positions of power it would be = dynamic and service the interest of the people without being seen to = clash with modernity. =20 Specific on the Swazi case: =20 The High Court of Swaziland was faced with an abduction case brought = by Lindiwe Dlamini the mother of an 18 year old girl born out of = marriage, making the mother sole custodian and guardian in terms of our = general law. However, in terms of custom the rightful custodians and = guardians of the family of the late father of Zena.=20 =20 Lindiwe in a way representative of Swazi mothers out there was = insisting on her rights as a custodian and guardian of the minor girl. = The case brought out the tensions that exist between customary law and = general law. The arguments that were brought by the defence through out = were not answering to the abduction and claim for return of the 18 year = old. They were raising all sorts of reasons why first and foremost the = mother does not even have a standing to be bringing up the case. =20 Some of you have asked why girls even bother to go to the reed dance = and dance bear breasted? Ms. Lindiwe Nkonyane has helped by clarifying = what the reed dance is about and wish to further shed light on the = question on the concern about female virginity versus male or rather = both. =20 =20 First here I wish to agree with the one who said we can not wish = custom away. Indeeed we cant, but we can move on with our customs by = viewing the rationale behind them, capitalise on their good intentions = and=20 =20 =20 =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_004F_01C2920F.607832D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear All
 
Thanks very much Doo for this. = I do trust that we ahve all received the = contribution from Doo=20 Aphane, an expert in gender and the law and also Coordinator of the = organization that has been leading advocacy for law reforms = and=20 interogating culture, custom and tradition in Swaziland. She has = given an=20 overarching view of the issue. We are all free to raise with her = follow up=20 questions, issues for further clarification and comments on her = summary=20 before we wrap up this week's discussion and we share the summary. = Lets=20 hear your reactions!!
Alice  
 
 
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Doo=20 Aphane
Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 6:37 PM
Subject: [Egemtraining] re: Clash between customs and=20 modernity

 

 

Dear All,

 

I have read with keen interest about = the=20 different positions assumed on the question,  where should culture, custom = and=20 tradition stop and individual rights begin, to ensure the enjoyment of = these=20 rights especially by women.

 

Well, well what an interesting and = timely=20 topic.

 

Let me begin by stating my position = generally on=20 the topic and then specifically on the case in point.  Strictly speaking there = should be no=20 clash between custom and modernity. =20 I am hoping that modernity is used within the human rights = ambit.  The two should not clash = because=20 custom is by its nature dynamic so that it can keep up with servicing = the=20 needs of the people. Human rights as we know is about inalienable = rights that=20 we all have by virtue of belonging to the human family.  However, that is not to deny = that=20 there is a clash between customs of the past that are imposed out of = context=20 to present day situations.  = By=20 customs of the past I am referring to those customs which are imposed = on=20 society in their =93frozen=94 state.  Generally, speaking Southern = African=20 customs are based on principles of humanity =93buntfu, = ubuntu,botho=94.  The concept of =93buntfu=94 = is based on=20 reciprocation of respect.  = I=20 subscribe to the nation that human rights are as much an African = concept as=20 they are a western one.  = Our=20 culture embodies strong reqirements and expectations of respect of the = next=20 person and treating them humanly. =20 If custom was not being manipulated by those who are in = positions of=20 power it would be dynamic and service the interest of the people = without being=20 seen to clash with modernity.

 

Specific on the Swazi = case:

 

The High Court of Swaziland was = faced with an=20 abduction case brought by Lindiwe Dlamini the mother of an 18 year old = girl=20 born out of marriage, making the mother sole custodian and guardian in = terms=20 of our general law.  = However, in=20 terms of custom the rightful custodians and guardians of the family of = the=20 late father of Zena.

 

Lindiwe = in a way=20 representative of Swazi mothers out there was insisting on her rights = as a=20 custodian and guardian of the minor girl.  The case brought out the = tensions that=20 exist between customary law and general law.  The arguments that were = brought by the=20 defence through out were not answering to the abduction and claim for = return=20 of the 18 year old.  = They were=20 raising all sorts of reasons why first and foremost the mother does = not even=20 have a standing to be bringing up the case.

 

Some of you have asked why = girls even=20 bother to go to the reed dance and dance bear breasted?  Ms. Lindiwe Nkonyane has = helped by=20 clarifying what the reed dance is about and wish to further shed light = on the=20 question on the concern about female virginity versus male or rather=20 both.  =

 

First here I wish to agree with the = one who said=20 we can not wish custom away. =20 Indeeed we cant, but we can move on with our customs by viewing = the=20 rationale behind them, capitalise on their good intentions and=20

 

 

 

 

------=_NextPart_000_004F_01C2920F.607832D0-- From research@genderlinks.org.za Fri Nov 22 12:51:23 2002 From: research@genderlinks.org.za (research) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 14:51:23 +0200 Subject: [Egemtraining] Summary of the week's discussions Message-ID: <001401c29225$dd0a24f0$0e00a8c0@ALICEK> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C29236.A041EEC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear all I am trusting that we have all received the opinion from Doo, our expert = on the topic for this week. I havent received any comments though from = anyone. Do we all share her opinion on the issues we raised thorughout = the week? I have tried to summarise the major points that emerged = thorughout the week. Note that these are not cast in stone and we are = all free to add, modify, correct and clarify where necessary.=20 Summary for the week's discussions =20 I am sure we all agree that this has been a very interesting week! All = the contributions made have been very challenging, raising a lot of = issues that make coverage of culture and human rights, especially from a = Human Rights approach very challenging. One thing which I think has = emerged from all the contributions is that there are many angles from = which we can approach issues of culture and gender violence. I will try = in this summary to outline some of the major angles that emerged from = the discussions. Please feel free to suggest some that may have slipped = from my attention, since we want to learn as much as we can from this = process, so we can effectively cover and communicate such issues. Some = of these include: =20 Some lessons we could pick from this:=20 =20 1) Culture and custom are dynamic and not static and as journalists = and communicators we need to make our societies aware of this fact so = that we begin to challenge negative cultural practices and past = practices that discriminate or infringe on others' rights and liberties. = 2) Its important to understand the foundations of culture and = custom on one hand and principles of human rights on the other, in any = given society, to be able understand the interplay between the two, = especially when there seems to be a clash. For instance, it was pointed = out in some contributions that most southern African cultures and = customs are founded on the concept of ubuntu, which in itself espouses = equality and reciprocation of respect and treating each other humanly. = However, we need to go beyond this level to interrogate who defines = cultures in any given context. This will bring us to a better = understanding of the gender dynamics, where women and children are = treated as the "other" and marginalized in the process. 3) Taking up from point 2, the understanding of the power dynamics = in the definition and redefinition of culture in a given society is = critical in explaining why some sectors of society would want to hold on = to aspects of culture that do not seem to service the interest of the = society. This is particularly important, I think, because we will not = blindly perpetuate some cultural practices that are "imposed on some = sections of society in their "frozen state" (as Doo put it!). We begin = to challenge these and help our societies review themselves. For = instance in most patriarchal societies in the region, "our" is not = necessarily that inclusive. It is manipulated by some to serve their own = interests.=20 4) Need to consistently put issues of culture, custom and human = rights on the national agenda, as journalists/communicators, and not = take a reactionary approach. This will make societies constantly take = stock of its practices and begin to challenge those aspects that would = have outlived their purposes. 5) Need to understand and be informed about national, regional and = international instruments and provisions that are available to protect = people's rights and freedoms. This will help us hold the leaders = accountable. For instance, in our case study King Mswati signed the = Convention on the Rights of the Child, the SADC Declaration on Gender = and Development and committed through these to promote women and = children's rights. This kind of knowledge can also help us sensitise our = societies to some of the commitments that our leaders make at their = Summits and soon forget about it. In this case it would also be = important for us to pursue the angle, why leaders sign some regional and = international instruments and not others. For example, Swaziland is the = only country in SADC that has NOT ratified the Convention on The = Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women (CEDAW) which = is a binding instrument, unlike the SADC Declaration for instance. =20 6) Another interesting angle which I thought came out is the whole = issue of laws, legal reforms and constitutional provisions to ensure the = enjoyment of individual inalienable rights. There have been some = initiatives in some countries in the region to reform laws and amend = constitutions to align them with principles of gender equality and human = rights. It would be important for us to know the initiatives in our = respective countries and across the region, to be able to draw = comparisons and challenge our leaders and laws makers. 7) There is need to understand why people act and react in the way = they do, especially where gender dynamics are at play. For instance, why = do women in Swaziland send their daughters to the reed dance? This is = important to understand so as to avoid apportioning blame and being = judgemental. Once we begin to unpack such issues, we also begin to probe = and understand the socialization processes that tend to on pass some = cultural practices from one generation to the next.=20 8) The issue of seeking to strike a balance also came out strongly = in some contributions, where the argument was that we need not approach = culture and custom as something independent of human rights and vice = versa, but to seek the interface between the two and try and locate the = root of discord. This may well reveal that certain groups in society are = manipulating culture and custom for their own end, and not that there = necessarily is discord between culture and human rights principles. 9) =20 =20 Some resources for journalists: =20 1) The Gender Links website (www.genderlinks.org.za) information section = has a summary of laws and initiatives on the prevention and combating of = gender violence in the 14 SADC countries and this is a useful resource = for writers/journalists/communicators. Feel free to indicate other = recent developments and initiatives in this area so the chart can be = updated. =20 2) The Women in Law in Southern Africa (WLSA) Research Trust has done a = lot of research in the areas of law, custom and cultural practices in = the context of human rights and gender equality, in the southern Africa = region. You can contact them at The Regional Office, 16 Lawson Avenue = Milton Park, P.O Box UA171, Union Avenue HARARE Zimbabwe Tel/Fax: = 263-4-793401 E-mail: wlsa@samara.co.zw and website www.wlsa.co.zw =20 =20 NB. Please note that the above are just my own observations and you are = welcome to comment, add, subtract and enhance on these. If you are aware = of any other organizations, bibliographic references, contact people = etc, that you would want to share with the group, please feel free to = share and these will be added to the list of resources.=20 =20 Once more thank you very much to all for your very interesting = contributions throughout the week. Meet you again online on Monday 25 as = we fosuc on issues of HIV/AIDS especially marital rape and access to = anti-retroviral drugs by survivors of rape!! =20 =20 Also remember that Monday 25 is the first of the 16 Days of Activism = Against Gender Violence. Let me remind you all that we are running a = huge campaign and you can visit our website (www.genderlinks.org.za) and = sign the pledge, the memorial board, and get to access a lot more = information, including a calendar of events to give you an insight into = what is happening during the 16 Days and related initiatives.=20 =20 Have a restful and blessed weekend!!! Alice Kwaramba Senior Researcher Gender Links 1 Ernest Oppenheimer Street Lower Ground Floor Lakeside Place Bruma, 2198 Johannesburg South Africa Tel: +27 11 622 2877/7796 Fax: +27 11 622 4732 Email: alice@genderlinks.org.za research@genderlinks.org.za URL: www.genderlinks.org.za ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C29236.A041EEC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear all
 
I am trusting that we have all received = the opinion=20 from Doo, our expert on the topic for this week. I havent received any = comments=20 though from anyone. Do we all share her opinion on the issues we raised=20 thorughout the week? I have tried to summarise the major points that = emerged=20 thorughout the week. Note that these are not cast in stone and we are = all free=20 to add, modify, correct and clarify where necessary.

 

 

Summary for the = week=92s=20 discussions

 

I am sure we all = agree that this=20 has been a very interesting week! All the contributions made have been = very=20 challenging, raising a lot of issues that make coverage of culture and = human=20 rights, especially from a Human Rights approach very challenging. One = thing=20 which I think has emerged from all the contributions is that there are = many=20 angles from which we can approach issues of culture and gender violence. = I will=20 try in this summary to outline some of the major angles that emerged = from the=20 discussions. Please feel free to suggest some that may have slipped from = my=20 attention, since we want to learn as much as we can from this process, = so we can=20 effectively cover and communicate such issues. Some of these = include:

 

Some lessons we = could pick=20 from this:

 

1)     =20 Culture and custom are dynamic and not static and as = journalists=20 and communicators we need to make our societies aware of this fact so = that we=20 begin to challenge negative cultural practices and past practices that=20 discriminate or infringe on others=92 rights and liberties.

2)      = Its=20 important to understand the foundations of culture and = custom on=20 one hand and principles of human rights on the other, in any = given=20 society, to be able understand the interplay between the two, especially = when=20 there seems to be a clash. For instance, it was pointed out in some=20 contributions that most southern African cultures and customs are = founded on the=20 concept of ubuntu, which in itself espouses equality and = reciprocation of=20 respect and treating each other humanly. However, we need to go beyond = this=20 level to interrogate who defines cultures in any given context. This = will bring=20 us to a better understanding of the gender dynamics, where women and = children=20 are treated as the =93other=94 and marginalized in the process.

3)      = Taking=20 up from point 2, the understanding of the power dynamics in the = definition=20 and redefinition of culture in a given society is critical in = explaining why=20 some sectors of society would want to hold on to aspects of culture that = do not=20 seem to service the interest of the society. This is particularly = important, I=20 think, because we will not blindly perpetuate some cultural practices = that are=20 =93imposed on some sections of society in their =93frozen state=94 (as = Doo put it!).=20 We begin to challenge these and help our societies review themselves. = For=20 instance in most patriarchal societies in the region, =93our=94 is not = necessarily=20 that inclusive. It is manipulated by some to serve their own interests. =

4)      =  Need to consistently put = issues of=20 culture, custom and human rights on the national agenda, as=20 journalists/communicators, and not take a reactionary approach. This = will make=20 societies constantly take stock of its practices and begin to challenge = those=20 aspects that would have outlived their purposes.

5)      =  Need to understand and be = informed about=20 national, regional and international instruments and provisions = that are=20 available to protect people=92s rights and freedoms. This will help us = hold the=20 leaders accountable. For instance, in our case study King Mswati signed = the=20 Convention on the Rights of the Child, the SADC Declaration on Gender = and=20 Development and committed through these to promote women and = children=92s rights.=20 This kind of knowledge can also help us sensitise our societies to some = of the=20 commitments that our leaders make at their Summits and soon forget about = it. In=20 this case it would also be important for us to pursue the angle, why = leaders=20 sign some regional and international instruments and not others. For = example,=20 Swaziland is the only country in SADC that has NOT ratified the = Convention on=20 The Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women (CEDAW) = which is a=20 binding instrument, unlike the SADC Declaration for instance. 

6)     =20 Another interesting angle which I thought came out is the whole = issue of=20 laws, legal reforms and constitutional provisions to ensure the = enjoyment=20 of individual inalienable rights. There have been some initiatives in = some=20 countries in the region to reform laws and amend constitutions to align = them=20 with principles of gender equality and human rights. It would be = important for=20 us to know the initiatives in our respective countries and across the = region, to=20 be able to draw comparisons and challenge our leaders and laws = makers.

7)      = There=20 is need to understand why people act and react in the way they do, = especially=20 where gender dynamics are at play. For instance, why do women in = Swaziland send=20 their daughters to the reed dance? This is important to understand so as = to=20 avoid apportioning blame and being judgemental. Once we begin to unpack = such=20 issues, we also begin to probe and understand the socialization = processes=20 that tend to on pass some cultural practices from one generation to the = next.=20

8)      =  The issue of seeking to strike = a balance=20 also came out strongly in some contributions, where the argument was = that we=20 need not approach culture and custom as something independent of human = rights=20 and vice versa, but to seek the interface between the two and try and = locate the=20 root of discord. This may well reveal that certain groups in society are = manipulating culture and custom for their own end, and not that there=20 necessarily is discord between culture and human rights principles.

9)      =    

 

Some=20 resources for journalists:

 

1) The=20 Gender Links website (www.genderlinks.org.za) = information=20 section has a summary of laws and initiatives on the prevention and = combating of=20 gender violence in the 14 SADC countries and this is a useful resource = for=20 writers/journalists/communicators. Feel free to indicate other recent=20 developments and initiatives in this area so the chart can be = updated.

 

2) The Women=20 in Law in Southern Africa (WLSA) Research Trust has done a lot of = research in=20 the areas of law, custom and cultural practices in the context of human = rights=20 and gender equality, in the southern Africa region. You can contact them = at=20 The Regional Office, 16 Lawson Avenue = Milton Park,=20 P.O Box UA171, Union Avenue HARARE Zimbabwe Tel/Fax: 263-4-793401 = E-mail: wlsa@samara.co.zw and website=20 www.wlsa.co.zw

 

 

NB. Please = note that=20 the above are just my own observations and you are welcome to comment, = add,=20 subtract and enhance on these. If you are aware of any other = organizations,=20 bibliographic references, contact people etc, that you would want to = share with=20 the group, please feel free to share and these will be added to the list = of=20 resources.

 

Once more = thank you=20 very much to all for your very interesting contributions throughout the = week.=20 Meet you again online on Monday 25 as we fosuc on issues of HIV/AIDS = especially=20 marital rape and access to anti-retroviral drugs by survivors of=20 rape!!

 

 

Also = remember that=20 Monday 25 is the first of the 16 Days of Activism Against Gender = Violence. Let=20 me remind you all that we are running a huge campaign and you can visit = our=20 website (www.genderlinks.org.za)=20 and sign the pledge, the memorial board, and get to access a lot more=20 information, including a calendar of events to give you an insight into = what is=20 happening during the 16 Days and related initiatives.

 

Have a = restful and=20 blessed weekend!!!

 

 Alice Kwaramba
Senior Researcher
Gender = Links
1=20 Ernest Oppenheimer Street
Lower Ground Floor
Lakeside = Place
Bruma,=20 2198
Johannesburg
South Africa
Tel: +27 11 622 = 2877/7796
Fax: +27 11=20 622 4732
Email: alice@genderlinks.org.za
=          =20 research@genderlinks.org.za
URL:=20 www.genderlinks.org.za<= /DIV> ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C29236.A041EEC0-- From research at genderlinks.org.za Mon Nov 18 09:47:30 2002 From: research at genderlinks.org.za (research) Date: Tue Feb 27 14:10:56 2007 Subject: [Egemtraining] This week's discussion topic: Lets Talk!!! Message-ID: <000a01c28ed6$c05cadc0$0e00a8c0@ALICEK> Dear All I am sure most of you have been itching to receive the first discussion topic and are ready to roll!!! I have been keenly waiting to start as weel. Below is the discussion topic and the question at the end of the piece. Please remember not to make your contribution too long. Just comment as briefly as possible to give others a chance to also share their opinions. Also remember to "reply to all" so that you do not share your opinion just with me but with all in the network. Happy reading and looking forward to hearing your opinions!!! Where does culture start and stop, and individual rights begin? I am sure most of us are aware of the controversial ongoing court case in Swaziland between a mother (Lindiwe Dlamini) and the King (his aides) concerning the abduction of an 18-year-old-child (Zena) Mahlangu for "royal duties". For those who have not been following the case, the King (who is being sued through his aides, is alleged to have abducted the child from school without her mother's knowledge and consent. Lindiwe wants her child to be returned to her custody and the King has been arguing that the child is being kept at the Royal Guest House to be prepared to be the King's 10th wife. The King was quoted as saying at a press conference, "The whole issue has been blown out of proportion by those who took advantage of trying to destroy our customs and traditions". People may say whatever they want to sy but I vow to stick to our traditions, no matter what the times are. I can be blamed left and right, but the fact of the matter is that it is our culture that I should marry many wives as I can. I cannot allow myself to be forced to follow Western culture". The controversy is generally seen as a "clash between customs and modernity". According to custom, Mswati may choose a new wife each year from among the thousands of virgins who attend the annual reed dance". Ironically Mswati last year revived a traditional ban on sex with underage girls to combat HIV/AIDS. After protests for the abduction of Zena and two other girls, the King fined himself a cow for breaking his own royal decree. (BBC News). He was also quoted as saying that he was prepared to pay cows as fines for selecting the three girls. Zena's mother is challenging the alleged traditional grabbing of her daughter on the grounds that she was not consulted, did not consent and her child has been taken out of school and therefore was abducted. The King's courtiers (aides) have been arguing that the girl was not abducted but went willingly. "Everything was arranged between the King and the girl and our job was just to pick her at the agreed spot. No force was applied". Human rights activists have been arguing that "traditionalists should stop "raping" girls in the name of culture, while royals have been insisting that Mswati's selection of Zena to be his bride is a traditional issue that must be resolved through Swazi customs and culture. Gender and human rights activists have noted that Zena is a minor child (18 years) and the abduction is a criminal offence in that it violates 1) Lindiwe Dlamini's rights to custody and guardianship over her minor child and also that; 2) Zena's rights to liberty, freedom of movement, education, choice of marriage partner, right to be a child and bodily integrity. Most of us are, I am sure, aware that Swaziland is signatory to the SADC Declaration on Gender and Development which commits it in article (vii) to, among other things, protecting the human rights of women and children, which raises a number of concerns regarding this case. Question for Discussion 1) Where should culture, custom and tradition stop and individual human rights begin, to ensure the enjoyment of these rights especially by women? Here women are singled out because most negative cultural practices tend to disadvantage them more than men, since in patriarchal societies men are the ones who define culture? Lets Talk!!! Alice Kwaramba Senior Researcher Gender Links 1 Ernest Oppenheimer Street Lower Ground Floor Lakeside Place Bruma, 2198 Johannesburg South Africa Tel: +27 11 622 2877/7796 Fax: +27 11 622 4732 Email: alice@genderlinks.org.za research@genderlinks.org.za URL: www.genderlinks.org.za -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.sn.apc.org/pipermail/egemtraining/attachments/20021118/b5fe92d7/attachment.html From research at genderlinks.org.za Mon Nov 18 15:07:28 2002 From: research at genderlinks.org.za (research) Date: Tue Feb 27 14:10:57 2007 Subject: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity References: <000a01c28ed6$c05cadc0$0e00a8c0@ALICEK> <00c001c28e26$311b7660$0f00a8c0@MOTH> Message-ID: <014201c28f03$72f6b580$0e00a8c0@ALICEK> hie all thanks for this Lindi. I think Lindiwe has raised a number of interesting points which we may want to make a follow up on. One which I find quite pertinent is the whole concept of ubuntu and who in patriarchal societies constitutes "us". The Swazi King talks on the need for the whole world to understand who and how "us/we" as Swati people operate, as defined by "our" culture. This is a very interesting definition of "us" in a society where women are legally regarded as minors, and in my own interpretation, therefore as part of the "other". Are Swazi women and children part of "us" in the ubuntu concept in Swaziland, or they are the "other" becuase of the gender dynamics that define "them" and "us" in Swaziland? What do others think? Lets talk!!! ----- Original Message ----- From: lindiwe nkutha To: research ; egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org Sent: Sunday, November 17, 2002 12:43 PM Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity Hi to all Its an interesting topic isn't it'? the convergence of human rights and custom/ culture etc. Ideally these should not be mutually exclusive, me thinks. I think also that in particular, southern African customs that espouse or purport to espouse the principle of Ubuntu should not at all have a problem with human rights. (but then again there are a lot of things I think that are not necessarily fact). My rationale is if the foundation of the concept of ubuntu which is said to recognise (albeit philosophically) that "I am because you are" is our point of departure then who I am is intrinsically linked to who you are. If you are free, so am I free, if you are oppressed, so am I oppressed, and so on and so on. But because society loves an "other", and patriarchy has worked wonders in "securing women's positions as others", patriarchy in a heavy disguise as culture has always been used as the banner under which abuses of human rights are perpetuated. So that the lines were blurred and everytime we said "I am because you are" and we were speaking as men, it almost felt natural, cultural, in line with dated customs to exclude women. In this context the speaking ""I am...."' is under patriarchy, not considered the speaking female, it is always the"speaking male and this gets termed culturally acceptable practise, but it is not. If we move form the ""ubuntu" premise, we begin to see that the marginalisation and subjugation of women is against the principle said to ground our culture. If we accept, and perhaps this is one aspect in our "evolution - culturally" that we left behind, the acceptance that the speaking "I am..." is both male and female, then within culture we begin to see that some of the things that get justified as culture are in fact not cultural, but are patriarchal practices dressed as culture. The king says he will not turn away from his cultural practices no matter what! Selectively so, he sticks to his cultural practices when it suits him, because there are benefits for him. Which is another thing about culture that is worth mentioning. More times than not the most vocal voices on the adoption of culture are those that have a vested interest in the practice at hand. An uncle who needs to "cleanse a widow" will probably be the loudest about upholding culture, even though they may be silent about other aspects of that same culture. My point being that culture can be used to advance or secure people's positions. As I sign off, I need to make it clear that I do not think that culture is all bad. No in fact I appreciate the critical position that particularly those in countries that were previously colonised are grappling with. A project of recovery of that which we were before our culture was tempered with, balanced against the reality of the now and who we define ourselves as presently as well as the challenge of self definition into the future of who we want to be. And we sit in a challenging position. The true test for all of us though (me thinks) in assessing what is acceptable as culture and what is not acceptable is whether or not the precise in any way takes away from an individual (and in turn the collective...community ...based on Ubuntu) ability to enjoy to its full extent the experience of being human. Until later ----- Original Message ----- From: research To: egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 9:47 AM Subject: [Egemtraining] This week's discussion topic: Lets Talk!!! Dear All I am sure most of you have been itching to receive the first discussion topic and are ready to roll!!! I have been keenly waiting to start as weel. Below is the discussion topic and the question at the end of the piece. Please remember not to make your contribution too long. Just comment as briefly as possible to give others a chance to also share their opinions. Also remember to "reply to all" so that you do not share your opinion just with me but with all in the network. Happy reading and looking forward to hearing your opinions!!! Where does culture start and stop, and individual rights begin? I am sure most of us are aware of the controversial ongoing court case in Swaziland between a mother (Lindiwe Dlamini) and the King (his aides) concerning the abduction of an 18-year-old-child (Zena) Mahlangu for "royal duties". For those who have not been following the case, the King (who is being sued through his aides, is alleged to have abducted the child from school without her mother's knowledge and consent. Lindiwe wants her child to be returned to her custody and the King has been arguing that the child is being kept at the Royal Guest House to be prepared to be the King's 10th wife. The King was quoted as saying at a press conference, "The whole issue has been blown out of proportion by those who took advantage of trying to destroy our customs and traditions". People may say whatever they want to sy but I vow to stick to our traditions, no matter what the times are. I can be blamed left and right, but the fact of the matter is that it is our culture that I should marry many wives as I can. I cannot allow myself to be forced to follow Western culture". The controversy is generally seen as a "clash between customs and modernity". According to custom, Mswati may choose a new wife each year from among the thousands of virgins who attend the annual reed dance". Ironically Mswati last year revived a traditional ban on sex with underage girls to combat HIV/AIDS. After protests for the abduction of Zena and two other girls, the King fined himself a cow for breaking his own royal decree. (BBC News). He was also quoted as saying that he was prepared to pay cows as fines for selecting the three girls. Zena's mother is challenging the alleged traditional grabbing of her daughter on the grounds that she was not consulted, did not consent and her child has been taken out of school and therefore was abducted. The King's courtiers (aides) have been arguing that the girl was not abducted but went willingly. "Everything was arranged between the King and the girl and our job was just to pick her at the agreed spot. No force was applied". Human rights activists have been arguing that "traditionalists should stop "raping" girls in the name of culture, while royals have been insisting that Mswati's selection of Zena to be his bride is a traditional issue that must be resolved through Swazi customs and culture. Gender and human rights activists have noted that Zena is a minor child (18 years) and the abduction is a criminal offence in that it violates 1) Lindiwe Dlamini's rights to custody and guardianship over her minor child and also that; 2) Zena's rights to liberty, freedom of movement, education, choice of marriage partner, right to be a child and bodily integrity. Most of us are, I am sure, aware that Swaziland is signatory to the SADC Declaration on Gender and Development which commits it in article (vii) to, among other things, protecting the human rights of women and children, which raises a number of concerns regarding this case. Question for Discussion 1) Where should culture, custom and tradition stop and individual human rights begin, to ensure the enjoyment of these rights especially by women? Here women are singled out because most negative cultural practices tend to disadvantage them more than men, since in patriarchal societies men are the ones who define culture? Lets Talk!!! Alice Kwaramba Senior Researcher Gender Links 1 Ernest Oppenheimer Street Lower Ground Floor Lakeside Place Bruma, 2198 Johannesburg South Africa Tel: +27 11 622 2877/7796 Fax: +27 11 622 4732 Email: alice@genderlinks.org.za research@genderlinks.org.za URL: www.genderlinks.org.za -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.sn.apc.org/pipermail/egemtraining/attachments/20021118/f1956bd0/attachment.htm From bmachumu at yahoo.com Mon Nov 18 18:02:25 2002 From: bmachumu at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?bakari=20machumu?=) Date: Tue Feb 27 14:10:57 2007 Subject: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity In-Reply-To: <00c001c28e26$311b7660$0f00a8c0@MOTH> Message-ID: <20021118160225.65103.qmail@web40911.mail.yahoo.com> Hi to all, This is kind of a tricky situation where one get confused on a situation like a chick and egg, what comes first. Can't demacate clearly that, from this point on, human rights begins. I think if we are to go on with this culture, custom and tradition thing, then it should be under equal applications for both Men and Women. But do women as women know their right in Swaziland, i mean with the exception of Lindiwe Dlaminimost Swazi women, (its my guess i stand to be corrected) agrees with the culture, customs tradition thing todate. I mean, i can't imagine them continuing parading with their upper bodies and most of the under part in such neckedness, that by itself keeps their minds in it.To me that, consititutes negative cultural practices Now, to solve this thing, i believe on agressive, consistent awareness creation.How? that is the question Bakari Dar es Salaam --- lindiwe nkutha wrote: > Hi to all > > Its an interesting topic isn't it'? the convergence > of human rights and custom/ culture etc. Ideally > these should not be mutually exclusive, me thinks. I > think also that in particular, southern African > customs that espouse or purport to espouse the > principle of Ubuntu should not at all have a problem > with human rights. (but then again there are a lot > of things I think that are not necessarily fact). My > rationale is if the foundation of the concept of > ubuntu which is said to recognise (albeit > philosophically) that "I am because you are" is our > point of departure then who I am is intrinsically > linked to who you are. If you are free, so am I > free, if you are oppressed, so am I oppressed, and > so on and so on. > > But because society loves an "other", and > patriarchy has worked wonders in "securing women's > positions as others", patriarchy in a heavy disguise > as culture has always been used as the banner under > which abuses of human rights are perpetuated. So > that the lines were blurred and everytime we said > "I am because you are" and we were speaking as men, > it almost felt natural, cultural, in line with dated > customs to exclude women. In this context the > speaking ""I am...."' is under patriarchy, not > considered the speaking female, it is always > the"speaking male and this gets termed culturally > acceptable practise, but it is not. > > If we move form the ""ubuntu" premise, we begin to > see that the marginalisation and subjugation of > women is against the principle said to ground our > culture. If we accept, and perhaps this is one > aspect in our "evolution - culturally" that we left > behind, the acceptance that the speaking "I am..." > is both male and female, then within culture we > begin to see that some of the things that get > justified as culture are in fact not cultural, but > are patriarchal practices dressed as culture. > > The king says he will not turn away from his > cultural practices no matter what! Selectively so, > he sticks to his cultural practices when it suits > him, because there are benefits for him. Which is > another thing about culture that is worth > mentioning. More times than not the most vocal > voices on the adoption of culture are those that > have a vested interest in the practice at hand. An > uncle who needs to "cleanse a widow" will probably > be the loudest about upholding culture, even though > they may be silent about other aspects of that same > culture. My point being that culture can be used to > advance or secure people's positions. > > As I sign off, I need to make it clear that I do not > think that culture is all bad. No in fact I > appreciate the critical position that particularly > those in countries that were previously colonised > are grappling with. A project of recovery of that > which we were before our culture was tempered with, > balanced against the reality of the now and who we > define ourselves as presently as well as the > challenge of self definition into the future of who > we want to be. And we sit in a challenging > position. The true test for all of us though (me > thinks) in assessing what is acceptable as culture > and what is not acceptable is whether or not the > precise in any way takes away from an individual > (and in turn the collective...community ...based on > Ubuntu) > ability to enjoy to its full extent the experience > of being human. > > Until later > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: research > To: egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 9:47 AM > Subject: [Egemtraining] This week's discussion > topic: Lets Talk!!! > > > Dear All > > I am sure most of you have been itching to receive > the first discussion topic and are ready to roll!!! > I have been keenly waiting to start as weel. Below > is the discussion topic and the question at the end > of the piece. Please remember not to make your > contribution too long. Just comment as briefly as > possible to give others a chance to also share their > opinions. Also remember to "reply to all" so that > you do not share your opinion just with me but with > all in the network. Happy reading and looking > forward to hearing your opinions!!! > > > Where does culture start and stop, and individual > rights begin? > > > > I am sure most of us are aware of the > controversial ongoing court case in Swaziland > between a mother (Lindiwe Dlamini) and the King (his > aides) concerning the abduction of an > 18-year-old-child (Zena) Mahlangu for "royal > duties". > > > > For those who have not been following the case, > the King (who is being sued through his aides, is > alleged to have abducted the child from school > without her mother's knowledge and consent. Lindiwe > wants her child to be returned to her custody and > the King has been arguing that the child is being > kept at the Royal Guest House to be prepared to be > the King's 10th wife. The King was quoted as saying > at a press conference, "The whole issue has been > blown out of proportion by those who took advantage > of trying to destroy our customs and traditions". > People may say whatever they want to sy but I vow to > stick to our traditions, no matter what the times > are. I can be blamed left and right, but the fact of > the matter is that it is our culture that I should > marry many wives as I can. I cannot allow myself to > be forced to follow Western culture". > > > > The controversy is generally seen as a "clash > between customs and modernity". According to custom, > Mswati may choose a new wife each year from among > the thousands of virgins who attend the annual reed > dance". Ironically Mswati last year revived a > traditional ban on sex with underage girls to combat > HIV/AIDS. > > > > After protests for the abduction of Zena and two > other girls, the King fined himself a cow for > breaking his own royal decree. (BBC News). He was > also quoted as saying that he was prepared to pay > cows as fines for selecting the three girls. > > > > Zena's mother is challenging the alleged > traditional grabbing of her daughter on the grounds > that she was not consulted, did not consent and her > child has been taken out of school and therefore was > abducted. The King's courtiers (aides) have been > arguing that the girl was not abducted but went > willingly. "Everything was arranged between the King > and the girl and our job was just to pick her at the > agreed spot. No force was applied". > > > > Human rights activists have been arguing that > "traditionalists should stop "raping" girls in the > name of culture, while royals have been insisting > that Mswati's selection of Zena to be his bride is a > traditional issue that must be resolved through > Swazi customs and culture. > > > > Gender and human rights activists have noted that > Zena is a minor child (18 years) and the abduction > is a criminal offence in that it violates > > 1) Lindiwe Dlamini's rights to custody and > guardianship over her minor child and also that; > > 2) Zena's rights to liberty, freedom of movement, > education, choice of marriage partner, right to be a > child and bodily integrity. > > > > Most of us are, I am sure, aware that Swaziland is > signatory to the SADC Declaration on Gender and > Development which commits it in article (vii) to, > among other things, protecting the human rights of > women and children, which raises a number of > concerns regarding this case. > > > > Question for Discussion > > > 1) Where should culture, custom and tradition > stop and individual human rights begin, to ensure > the === message truncated === __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Everything you'll ever need on one web page from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts http://uk.my.yahoo.com From dailynews20 at dailynews.co.zw Mon Nov 18 17:31:24 2002 From: dailynews20 at dailynews.co.zw (Columbus S. Mavhunga) Date: Tue Feb 27 14:10:57 2007 Subject: [Egemtraining] hear, hear Message-ID: <200211182010.WAA13746@dailynews.co.zw> Folks, I must confess that my submissions are going to be 'affected' by what Lindiwe said. She brought very relevant points which will be my starting points and I will just try to reinforce them and add anything if she has anything that she left out. ----------- ----------- ----------- ----------- ----------- ------------ ------- ----- ----- As Lindi was signing off she said: "Culture can be used to advance or secure people's positions... I need to make it clear that I do not think that culture is all bad." I think African culture is one thing I have ever liked - debatable of course this is. It was 'invented' to make life nice for every African - from the king to the poorest person like me - be it a male or a female. Kings were meant to make sure that the customs were adhered to hence there was an indaba (royal court) where those who would have breached the cultural norms would be tried. But in the case of Swazi king - if at all he still deserves the title king - we are dealing without someone who is trying to manipulate a system. Culturally, Kings were meant to protect the vulnerable, but in the case of Mswati he has decided to feed on the prey. Do I hear someone say a who will protect the flock from preditors when the shephered starts pounding on his flock unjustifiably? In a real African culture there is no 'marriage' that would take place between a bride and a bridegroom without the consent of the bride's family. The marriage, in fact, needs the blessings of both in-laws. I am surprised that Mswati he abducted Zena without the consent of her mother (Lindiwe Dlamini). What makes it worse is that Zena is just 18 years old. I stand to be corrected if African culture did not respect the rights of a minor. If Mswati was to stand by his "African culture' what then is he going to do when it comes to the wedding ceremony. (I cannot recall the traditional name.) It has to involve both in-laws, doesn't it? There is noone who would want to 'destroy our customs and traditions' as Mswati claims. But he must use his greedness in the name of culture otherwise we we would sought the help of the West and human right activists to destroy it. Mswati even boasts further: "I can be blamed left and right, but the fact of the matter is that it is our culture that I should marry many wives as I can. I cannot allow myself to be forced to follow Western culture." Granted, let him marry as many wives as he likes, but he must not rape as many wives as he likes in the guise of culture, in his day and age of the AIDS/HIV pandemic. Let me stress that there no 'clash between customs and modernity' as some people would want to put it. It is simply a clash between a babarian and a civilised society. I wonder if there would be anyone around who would witness the day Mswati regains his conscience and be asked what happens if he was in the shoes of Mama Dlamini. He would blink hundred times and keep quiet. I am outta here, coil. a -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.sn.apc.org/pipermail/egemtraining/attachments/20021118/ecd4874e/attachment.htm From mmcdonough at irex.org Tue Nov 19 00:41:58 2002 From: mmcdonough at irex.org (Maggie McDonough) Date: Tue Feb 27 14:10:57 2007 Subject: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity Message-ID: <51E0CF9C2CF499478C33F3D4FFD3763097BEBF@exchange.irex.org> Hello to all, I also express my thanks to Lindiwe for the thoughtful remarks to start us off. I will start off with my thoughts on the question that was originally posed - I think that when there is a clash between tradition/culture and individual rights, that individual rights should be preferenced. In other words, I believe that one's right to practice culture ends when it impacts another's right to their liberties. But with that said, I think that it can also be a very difficult task to define what genuinely constitutes tradition or a cultural practice since I think it can so often be disorted by the beneficiary of such practice. I mean, should practices of religion or tradition that are manipulated to ensure patriarchal control of the family/society/state be insulated from change on the grounds that it is "culture"? As Lindiwe rightfully pointed out in her comments, there are many examples where culture is invoked only when it is useful, and I think that in the case we must differentiate between "reason" and "excuse". I am also a self-admitted social Darwinist - I have to say that I think there are some cultural practices that SHOULD be eradicated. And frankly, when it comes to promoting gender equality, if one of the side-effects of achieving this goal is some sort of cultural compromise, then I can live with it. This is not to say, however, that there is no balance to be had in weighing individual rights and cultural practices. In my opinion both of these things have to be balanced, and when this principle is converted from a philosophical point to real life, there are of course serious complexities that arise. I suppose my main point is that in cases when the different principles conflict, in my opinion the conflict should be resolved by the application of the basic human rights principles of nondiscrimination, non-oppression, and fairness. As a side note, there are a couple of interesting case studies in my region of focus (Russia and Central Asian) on successes of the women's movement in reconciling traditions and modernity, and the common trait in all the success stories is that the successes occured as a result of women being educated as a priority! That is all I have for now. Best regards, Maggie From: research [mailto:research@genderlinks.org.za] Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 8:07 AM To: lindiwe nkutha; egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity hie all thanks for this Lindi. I think Lindiwe has raised a number of interesting points which we may want to make a follow up on. One which I find quite pertinent is the whole concept of ubuntu and who in patriarchal societies constitutes "us". The Swazi King talks on the need for the whole world to understand who and how "us/we" as Swati people operate, as defined by "our" culture. This is a very interesting definition of "us" in a society where women are legally regarded as minors, and in my own interpretation, therefore as part of the "other". Are Swazi women and children part of "us" in the ubuntu concept in Swaziland, or they are the "other" becuase of the gender dynamics that define "them" and "us" in Swaziland? What do others think? Lets talk!!! ----- Original Message ----- From: lindiwe nkutha To: research ; egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org Sent: Sunday, November 17, 2002 12:43 PM Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity Hi to all Its an interesting topic isn't it'? the convergence of human rights and custom/ culture etc. Ideally these should not be mutually exclusive, me thinks. I think also that in particular, southern African customs that espouse or purport to espouse the principle of Ubuntu should not at all have a problem with human rights. (but then again there are a lot of things I think that are not necessarily fact). My rationale is if the foundation of the concept of ubuntu which is said to recognise (albeit philosophically) that "I am because you are" is our point of departure then who I am is intrinsically linked to who you are. If you are free, so am I free, if you are oppressed, so am I oppressed, and so on and so on. But because society loves an "other", and patriarchy has worked wonders in "securing women's positions as others", patriarchy in a heavy disguise as culture has always been used as the banner under which abuses of human rights are perpetuated. So that the lines were blurred and everytime we said "I am because you are" and we were speaking as men, it almost felt natural, cultural, in line with dated customs to exclude women. In this context the speaking ""I am...."' is under patriarchy, not considered the speaking female, it is always the"speaking male and this gets termed culturally acceptable practise, but it is not. If we move form the ""ubuntu" premise, we begin to see that the marginalisation and subjugation of women is against the principle said to ground our culture. If we accept, and perhaps this is one aspect in our "evolution - culturally" that we left behind, the acceptance that the speaking "I am..." is both male and female, then within culture we begin to see that some of the things that get justified as culture are in fact not cultural, but are patriarchal practices dressed as culture. The king says he will not turn away from his cultural practices no matter what! Selectively so, he sticks to his cultural practices when it suits him, because there are benefits for him. Which is another thing about culture that is worth mentioning. More times than not the most vocal voices on the adoption of culture are those that have a vested interest in the practice at hand. An uncle who needs to "cleanse a widow" will probably be the loudest about upholding culture, even though they may be silent about other aspects of that same culture. My point being that culture can be used to advance or secure people's positions. As I sign off, I need to make it clear that I do not think that culture is all bad. No in fact I appreciate the critical position that particularly those in countries that were previously colonised are grappling with. A project of recovery of that which we were before our culture was tempered with, balanced against the reality of the now and who we define ourselves as presently as well as the challenge of self definition into the future of who we want to be. And we sit in a challenging position. The true test for all of us though (me thinks) in assessing what is acceptable as culture and what is not acceptable is whether or not the precise in any way takes away from an individual (and in turn the collective...community ...based on Ubuntu) ability to enjoy to its full extent the experience of being human. Until later ----- Original Message ----- From: research To: egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 9:47 AM Subject: [Egemtraining] This week's discussion topic: Lets Talk!!! Dear All I am sure most of you have been itching to receive the first discussion topic and are ready to roll!!! I have been keenly waiting to start as weel. Below is the discussion topic and the question at the end of the piece. Please remember not to make your contribution too long. Just comment as briefly as possible to give others a chance to also share their opinions. Also remember to "reply to all" so that you do not share your opinion just with me but with all in the network. Happy reading and looking forward to hearing your opinions!!! Where does culture start and stop, and individual rights begin? I am sure most of us are aware of the controversial ongoing court case in Swaziland between a mother (Lindiwe Dlamini) and the King (his aides) concerning the abduction of an 18-year-old-child (Zena) Mahlangu for "royal duties". For those who have not been following the case, the King (who is being sued through his aides, is alleged to have abducted the child from school without her mother's knowledge and consent. Lindiwe wants her child to be returned to her custody and the King has been arguing that the child is being kept at the Royal Guest House to be prepared to be the King's 10th wife. The King was quoted as saying at a press conference, "The whole issue has been blown out of proportion by those who took advantage of trying to destroy our customs and traditions". People may say whatever they want to sy but I vow to stick to our traditions, no matter what the times are. I can be blamed left and right, but the fact of the matter is that it is our culture that I should marry many wives as I can. I cannot allow myself to be forced to follow Western culture". The controversy is generally seen as a "clash between customs and modernity". According to custom, Mswati may choose a new wife each year from among the thousands of virgins who attend the annual reed dance". Ironically Mswati last year revived a traditional ban on sex with underage girls to combat HIV/AIDS. After protests for the abduction of Zena and two other girls, the King fined himself a cow for breaking his own royal decree. (BBC News). He was also quoted as saying that he was prepared to pay cows as fines for selecting the three girls. Zena's mother is challenging the alleged traditional grabbing of her daughter on the grounds that she was not consulted, did not consent and her child has been taken out of school and therefore was abducted. The King's courtiers (aides) have been arguing that the girl was not abducted but went willingly. "Everything was arranged between the King and the girl and our job was just to pick her at the agreed spot. No force was applied". Human rights activists have been arguing that "traditionalists should stop "raping" girls in the name of culture, while royals have been insisting that Mswati's selection of Zena to be his bride is a traditional issue that must be resolved through Swazi customs and culture. Gender and human rights activists have noted that Zena is a minor child (18 years) and the abduction is a criminal offence in that it violates 1) Lindiwe Dlamini's rights to custody and guardianship over her minor child and also that; 2) Zena's rights to liberty, freedom of movement, education, choice of marriage partner, right to be a child and bodily integrity. Most of us are, I am sure, aware that Swaziland is signatory to the SADC Declaration on Gender and Development which commits it in article (vii) to, among other things, protecting the human rights of women and children, which raises a number of concerns regarding this case. Question for Discussion 1) Where should culture, custom and tradition stop and individual human rights begin, to ensure the enjoyment of these rights especially by women? Here women are singled out because most negative cultural practices tend to disadvantage them more than men, since in patriarchal societies men are the ones who define culture? Lets Talk!!! Alice Kwaramba Senior Researcher Gender Links 1 Ernest Oppenheimer Street Lower Ground Floor Lakeside Place Bruma, 2198 Johannesburg South Africa Tel: +27 11 622 2877/7796 Fax: +27 11 622 4732 Email: alice@genderlinks.org.za research@genderlinks.org.za URL: www.genderlinks.org.za -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.sn.apc.org/pipermail/egemtraining/attachments/20021118/b61f5f33/attachment.html From research at genderlinks.org.za Tue Nov 19 09:14:59 2002 From: research at genderlinks.org.za (research) Date: Tue Feb 27 14:10:57 2007 Subject: Fw: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity Message-ID: <005e01c28f9b$5f486cc0$0e00a8c0@ALICEK> Dear All Thanks for this contribution. Just remember to "reply to all" so that I do not have to forward it to others! ----- Original Message ----- From: "ndzundzu" <120409@uniswacc.uniswa.sz> To: "research" Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 6:17 PM Subject: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > Okay, seems like there are lots of Lindiwe's in this issue so I wonder how > we'll actually go about this (ha, ha, ha!). Any's I don't know, but for some > reason I knew this issue would come up. Well as a pure Swazi, I have > been exposed to all sorts of culture traits for as long as I can remember > and this has somehow worked out well. But with the era that we are living > in now, I guess some cultures need to be modified. > Here is an extract from an article that appeared in The Times of Swaziland > "What the Zena SAGA taught us": > "A third lesson is that clearly we as a nation are failing to recognise the > fundamental value of the women in our society through statutory law. > Perhaps the new constitution will address this matter when a draft appears > some time in 2003." > So, I guess this almost sums it all up especially where the issue of rights is > concerned. All this is hopefully going to come out in the upcoming > constitution. > From lindiwe at genderlinks.org.za Mon Nov 18 10:59:17 2002 From: lindiwe at genderlinks.org.za (lindiwe nkutha) Date: Tue Feb 27 14:10:57 2007 Subject: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity References: <20021118160225.65103.qmail@web40911.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <005501c28ee0$c72b7e10$0f00a8c0@MOTH> Hi again Interestingly as we talk about culture we begin to challaenge our own beliefs on what constitutes culture as well as how we understand the workings of it. Critical to this realisation is our understanding and appreciation of how culture is passed on from generation to generation, entrenching positions of indivduals and setting precedents that future genarations will follow often times unquestioned. Bakari raises properly the predicament of chicken and egg where culture is concerned, and so we ask, in the formation of society and the negotiation of indivual identities which takes more precedent, the indivual make up of members of communities or the culture into which they are born? And this is the real quanandram! If we agree that culture exists for amongst other reasons as a tempalte on which our own indivual identities are formed, we agree also that gender roles are difined in culture; the man as hunter, gatherer and aggressor and woman as surbesvient receipient of caring, nurtiring etc etc are entrenched also in culture (and not just African cultures, just about all cultures in fact). So that we base our understanding of the situation in Swaziland on this premise, and begin to realise that from generation to generation, women in Swaziland would gather for the reed dance, half naked or almost entirely completely naked as Bakari says, is no co-incidence, it is done because it is a practice that fore ancestors engaged in as part of their cultural expression ( to what end now, is what we have to grapple with) . As a by the way as on my way to my point, I need to say, Swazi people and in fact most cultures in Southern Africa did not wear anything much before we were introduced to a western way of dressing...part of our colonisation...essentially "nudity" was for us never a tabooo. The comment on nudity reflects how the western way of being have influenced how we see ourselves. Having said that and getting back on course to my point, I need to repeat what I said yesterday, which Columbus picked up on also, that "customs and culture can be used to further gains of individuals". The genesis of the reed dance a Swazi friend informs me, was for the Queen mother, never a parade for the king to choose his wives. It was for the queen mother to choose for herself maidens that would help her in her homestead . The "king" has now appropriated this tradition for himself and has turned it into a peep show for himself (re-entrenching women's positions as objects of gaze...for the titilation of his own self). Is it then the practice itself that is wrong or is the "reason" for its continuance that is oppressive? and this is the point of this discussion I mantain. Bakari says women in Swaziland ecxept for my namesake Dlamini agree with the culture and customs. This statement is not entirely wrong, because if they did not no woman would send their daughters to the reed dance, and as westernised as we have become mothers in Swaziland would ensure that if their daughters went they were fully clothed and so on and so on. But why do women continue to send their children? Because women are in most cases the custodians of culture, and if we all agree that culture in the wrong hands can be oppressive we begin to appreciate how women remaining oblivious to their oppression can serve the interests of those who seek to keep them oppressed. And right here is where I agree fully with Bakari, knowldge is power! Knowledge and information on the basis of which change can be negotiated both at an individual and community level has been witheld for far too long from women. Unless and until women conscientize one another or are conscientized to a different reality, such abuses as we see in Swaziland will continue. Because culture is not static, and is ever changing, what will begin to happen is that together, as women and men we will begin to build a new culture that defines aptly who we want to be. Unless that happens (not only in Swaziland) but the world over women will appear and in fact may just continue to collude in their own oppression. Oh dear I'm afraid I have gone on and on...apologies Alice for the lenght of this, but I guess what I was trying to say in a very round about way is (i) culture is not static and is capable of being changed by individuals (ii) women need to be empowred to begin to see the world differently so they contribute meaningfully to processses that shape their lives, including the shaping of culture. Until next time Lindiwe Nkutha ----- Original Message ----- From: "bakari machumu" To: "lindiwe nkutha" ; "research" ; Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 6:02 PM Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > Hi to all, > This is kind of a tricky situation where one get > confused on a situation like a chick and egg, what > comes first. Can't demacate clearly that, from this > point on, human rights begins. I think if we are to go > on with this culture, custom and tradition thing, then > it should be under equal applications for both Men and > Women. But do women as women know their right in > Swaziland, i mean with the exception of Lindiwe > Dlaminimost Swazi women, (its my guess i stand to be > corrected) agrees with the culture, customs tradition > thing todate. I mean, i can't imagine them continuing > parading with their upper bodies and most of the under > part in such neckedness, that by itself keeps their > minds in it.To me that, consititutes negative cultural > practices Now, to solve this thing, i believe on > agressive, consistent awareness creation.How? that is > the question > > Bakari > Dar es Salaam > > > > --- lindiwe nkutha wrote: > > Hi to all > > > > Its an interesting topic isn't it'? the convergence > > of human rights and custom/ culture etc. Ideally > > these should not be mutually exclusive, me thinks. I > > think also that in particular, southern African > > customs that espouse or purport to espouse the > > principle of Ubuntu should not at all have a problem > > with human rights. (but then again there are a lot > > of things I think that are not necessarily fact). My > > rationale is if the foundation of the concept of > > ubuntu which is said to recognise (albeit > > philosophically) that "I am because you are" is our > > point of departure then who I am is intrinsically > > linked to who you are. If you are free, so am I > > free, if you are oppressed, so am I oppressed, and > > so on and so on. > > > > But because society loves an "other", and > > patriarchy has worked wonders in "securing women's > > positions as others", patriarchy in a heavy disguise > > as culture has always been used as the banner under > > which abuses of human rights are perpetuated. So > > that the lines were blurred and everytime we said > > "I am because you are" and we were speaking as men, > > it almost felt natural, cultural, in line with dated > > customs to exclude women. In this context the > > speaking ""I am...."' is under patriarchy, not > > considered the speaking female, it is always > > the"speaking male and this gets termed culturally > > acceptable practise, but it is not. > > > > If we move form the ""ubuntu" premise, we begin to > > see that the marginalisation and subjugation of > > women is against the principle said to ground our > > culture. If we accept, and perhaps this is one > > aspect in our "evolution - culturally" that we left > > behind, the acceptance that the speaking "I am..." > > is both male and female, then within culture we > > begin to see that some of the things that get > > justified as culture are in fact not cultural, but > > are patriarchal practices dressed as culture. > > > > The king says he will not turn away from his > > cultural practices no matter what! Selectively so, > > he sticks to his cultural practices when it suits > > him, because there are benefits for him. Which is > > another thing about culture that is worth > > mentioning. More times than not the most vocal > > voices on the adoption of culture are those that > > have a vested interest in the practice at hand. An > > uncle who needs to "cleanse a widow" will probably > > be the loudest about upholding culture, even though > > they may be silent about other aspects of that same > > culture. My point being that culture can be used to > > advance or secure people's positions. > > > > As I sign off, I need to make it clear that I do not > > think that culture is all bad. No in fact I > > appreciate the critical position that particularly > > those in countries that were previously colonised > > are grappling with. A project of recovery of that > > which we were before our culture was tempered with, > > balanced against the reality of the now and who we > > define ourselves as presently as well as the > > challenge of self definition into the future of who > > we want to be. And we sit in a challenging > > position. The true test for all of us though (me > > thinks) in assessing what is acceptable as culture > > and what is not acceptable is whether or not the > > precise in any way takes away from an individual > > (and in turn the collective...community ...based on > > Ubuntu) > > ability to enjoy to its full extent the experience > > of being human. > > > > Until later > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: research > > To: egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > > Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 9:47 AM > > Subject: [Egemtraining] This week's discussion > > topic: Lets Talk!!! > > > > > > Dear All > > > > I am sure most of you have been itching to receive > > the first discussion topic and are ready to roll!!! > > I have been keenly waiting to start as weel. Below > > is the discussion topic and the question at the end > > of the piece. Please remember not to make your > > contribution too long. Just comment as briefly as > > possible to give others a chance to also share their > > opinions. Also remember to "reply to all" so that > > you do not share your opinion just with me but with > > all in the network. Happy reading and looking > > forward to hearing your opinions!!! > > > > > > Where does culture start and stop, and individual > > rights begin? > > > > > > > > I am sure most of us are aware of the > > controversial ongoing court case in Swaziland > > between a mother (Lindiwe Dlamini) and the King (his > > aides) concerning the abduction of an > > 18-year-old-child (Zena) Mahlangu for "royal > > duties". > > > > > > > > For those who have not been following the case, > > the King (who is being sued through his aides, is > > alleged to have abducted the child from school > > without her mother's knowledge and consent. Lindiwe > > wants her child to be returned to her custody and > > the King has been arguing that the child is being > > kept at the Royal Guest House to be prepared to be > > the King's 10th wife. The King was quoted as saying > > at a press conference, "The whole issue has been > > blown out of proportion by those who took advantage > > of trying to destroy our customs and traditions". > > People may say whatever they want to sy but I vow to > > stick to our traditions, no matter what the times > > are. I can be blamed left and right, but the fact of > > the matter is that it is our culture that I should > > marry many wives as I can. I cannot allow myself to > > be forced to follow Western culture". > > > > > > > > The controversy is generally seen as a "clash > > between customs and modernity". According to custom, > > Mswati may choose a new wife each year from among > > the thousands of virgins who attend the annual reed > > dance". Ironically Mswati last year revived a > > traditional ban on sex with underage girls to combat > > HIV/AIDS. > > > > > > > > After protests for the abduction of Zena and two > > other girls, the King fined himself a cow for > > breaking his own royal decree. (BBC News). He was > > also quoted as saying that he was prepared to pay > > cows as fines for selecting the three girls. > > > > > > > > Zena's mother is challenging the alleged > > traditional grabbing of her daughter on the grounds > > that she was not consulted, did not consent and her > > child has been taken out of school and therefore was > > abducted. The King's courtiers (aides) have been > > arguing that the girl was not abducted but went > > willingly. "Everything was arranged between the King > > and the girl and our job was just to pick her at the > > agreed spot. No force was applied". > > > > > > > > Human rights activists have been arguing that > > "traditionalists should stop "raping" girls in the > > name of culture, while royals have been insisting > > that Mswati's selection of Zena to be his bride is a > > traditional issue that must be resolved through > > Swazi customs and culture. > > > > > > > > Gender and human rights activists have noted that > > Zena is a minor child (18 years) and the abduction > > is a criminal offence in that it violates > > > > 1) Lindiwe Dlamini's rights to custody and > > guardianship over her minor child and also that; > > > > 2) Zena's rights to liberty, freedom of movement, > > education, choice of marriage partner, right to be a > > child and bodily integrity. > > > > > > > > Most of us are, I am sure, aware that Swaziland is > > signatory to the SADC Declaration on Gender and > > Development which commits it in article (vii) to, > > among other things, protecting the human rights of > > women and children, which raises a number of > > concerns regarding this case. > > > > > > > > Question for Discussion > > > > > > 1) Where should culture, custom and tradition > > stop and individual human rights begin, to ensure > > the > === message truncated === > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Everything you'll ever need on one web page > from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts > http://uk.my.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > Egemtraining mailing list > Egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > http://lists.sn.apc.org/mailman/listinfo/egemtraining > From Kudzaishe at mwengo.org.zw Tue Nov 19 13:59:23 2002 From: Kudzaishe at mwengo.org.zw (Kudzaishe) Date: Tue Feb 27 14:10:57 2007 Subject: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity Message-ID: <30C1EF84C3B1D611AE8A008048D7AA3D02848F@SERVER> Hello everyone An interesting discussion to date which I have just joined. I agree that the world over the patriarchal system has been using culture as an excuse for women oppression. King Mswati just represents how far the rot, has gone in our world, whereby aspects of culture are still considered to override the modern day reality. The King obviously in spite of going to the extent of banning sex for girls, does not seem to realise that polygamous unions can be a fertile ground for the spread of HIV/ AIDS. We should also be considering Zena's freedom of choice in being able to choose a husband who she loves. Instead the tradition seems to be entrenching a system whereby a young girl, "catch them young" is coerced into going into a union where she can potentially be dazed by the grandeur and splendor of the royal riches. It is not really useful at this point to argue for the return of Zena without us examining the root causes of what has happened to her. It is the culture which has been entrenched for generations upon generations whereby women have only been considered to be possessions which exist for the good of the men. It would be interesting as well to study the nature of the support that Dhlamini is getting. Let us hope that it is directed towards destroying the harmful culture that is being currently perpetuated and not some people who have decided to jump on the band wagon and have thus decided to vent out all their vendettas on the king's rule. It is important that this issue is seen as it is supposed to be viewed, a women's rights abuse issue. That should be the first call when people examine this issue. Kudzai -----Original Message----- From: lindiwe nkutha [SMTP:lindiwe@genderlinks.org.za] Sent: 18 November 2002 10:59 To: research; egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity Hi again Interestingly as we talk about culture we begin to challaenge our own beliefs on what constitutes culture as well as how we understand the workings of it. Critical to this realisation is our understanding and appreciation of how culture is passed on from generation to generation, entrenching positions of indivduals and setting precedents that future genarations will follow often times unquestioned. Bakari raises properly the predicament of chicken and egg where culture is concerned, and so we ask, in the formation of society and the negotiation of indivual identities which takes more precedent, the indivual make up of members of communities or the culture into which they are born? And this is the real quanandram! If we agree that culture exists for amongst other reasons as a tempalte on which our own indivual identities are formed, we agree also that gender roles are difined in culture; the man as hunter, gatherer and aggressor and woman as surbesvient receipient of caring, nurtiring etc etc are entrenched also in culture (and not just African cultures, just about all cultures in fact). So that we base our understanding of the situation in Swaziland on this premise, and begin to realise that from generation to generation, women in Swaziland would gather for the reed dance, half naked or almost entirely completely naked as Bakari says, is no co-incidence, it is done because it is a practice that fore ancestors engaged in as part of their cultural expression ( to what end now, is what we have to grapple with) . As a by the way as on my way to my point, I need to say, Swazi people and in fact most cultures in Southern Africa did not wear anything much before we were introduced to a western way of dressing...part of our colonisation...essentially "nudity" was for us never a tabooo. The comment on nudity reflects how the western way of being have influenced how we see ourselves. Having said that and getting back on course to my point, I need to repeat what I said yesterday, which Columbus picked up on also, that "customs and culture can be used to further gains of individuals". The genesis of the reed dance a Swazi friend informs me, was for the Queen mother, never a parade for the king to choose his wives. It was for the queen mother to choose for herself maidens that would help her in her homestead . The "king" has now appropriated this tradition for himself and has turned it into a peep show for himself (re-entrenching women's positions as objects of gaze...for the titilation of his own self). Is it then the practice itself that is wrong or is the "reason" for its continuance that is oppressive? and this is the point of this discussion I mantain. Bakari says women in Swaziland ecxept for my namesake Dlamini agree with the culture and customs. This statement is not entirely wrong, because if they did not no woman would send their daughters to the reed dance, and as westernised as we have become mothers in Swaziland would ensure that if their daughters went they were fully clothed and so on and so on. But why do women continue to send their children? Because women are in most cases the custodians of culture, and if we all agree that culture in the wrong hands can be oppressive we begin to appreciate how women remaining oblivious to their oppression can serve the interests of those who seek to keep them oppressed. And right here is where I agree fully with Bakari, knowldge is power! Knowledge and information on the basis of which change can be negotiated both at an individual and community level has been witheld for far too long from women. Unless and until women conscientize one another or are conscientized to a different reality, such abuses as we see in Swaziland will continue. Because culture is not static, and is ever changing, what will begin to happen is that together, as women and men we will begin to build a new culture that defines aptly who we want to be. Unless that happens (not only in Swaziland) but the world over women will appear and in fact may just continue to collude in their own oppression. Oh dear I'm afraid I have gone on and on...apologies Alice for the lenght of this, but I guess what I was trying to say in a very round about way is (i) culture is not static and is capable of being changed by individuals (ii) women need to be empowred to begin to see the world differently so they contribute meaningfully to processses that shape their lives, including the shaping of culture. Until next time Lindiwe Nkutha ----- Original Message ----- From: "bakari machumu" To: "lindiwe nkutha" ; "research" ; Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 6:02 PM Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > Hi to all, > This is kind of a tricky situation where one get > confused on a situation like a chick and egg, what > comes first. Can't demacate clearly that, from this > point on, human rights begins. I think if we are to go > on with this culture, custom and tradition thing, then > it should be under equal applications for both Men and > Women. But do women as women know their right in > Swaziland, i mean with the exception of Lindiwe > Dlaminimost Swazi women, (its my guess i stand to be > corrected) agrees with the culture, customs tradition > thing todate. I mean, i can't imagine them continuing > parading with their upper bodies and most of the under > part in such neckedness, that by itself keeps their > minds in it.To me that, consititutes negative cultural > practices Now, to solve this thing, i believe on > agressive, consistent awareness creation.How? that is > the question > > Bakari > Dar es Salaam > > > > --- lindiwe nkutha wrote: > > Hi to all > > > > Its an interesting topic isn't it'? the convergence > > of human rights and custom/ culture etc. Ideally > > these should not be mutually exclusive, me thinks. I > > think also that in particular, southern African > > customs that espouse or purport to espouse the > > principle of Ubuntu should not at all have a problem > > with human rights. (but then again there are a lot > > of things I think that are not necessarily fact). My > > rationale is if the foundation of the concept of > > ubuntu which is said to recognise (albeit > > philosophically) that "I am because you are" is our > > point of departure then who I am is intrinsically > > linked to who you are. If you are free, so am I > > free, if you are oppressed, so am I oppressed, and > > so on and so on. > > > > But because society loves an "other", and > > patriarchy has worked wonders in "securing women's > > positions as others", patriarchy in a heavy disguise > > as culture has always been used as the banner under > > which abuses of human rights are perpetuated. So > > that the lines were blurred and everytime we said > > "I am because you are" and we were speaking as men, > > it almost felt natural, cultural, in line with dated > > customs to exclude women. In this context the > > speaking ""I am...."' is under patriarchy, not > > considered the speaking female, it is always > > the"speaking male and this gets termed culturally > > acceptable practise, but it is not. > > > > If we move form the ""ubuntu" premise, we begin to > > see that the marginalisation and subjugation of > > women is against the principle said to ground our > > culture. If we accept, and perhaps this is one > > aspect in our "evolution - culturally" that we left > > behind, the acceptance that the speaking "I am..." > > is both male and female, then within culture we > > begin to see that some of the things that get > > justified as culture are in fact not cultural, but > > are patriarchal practices dressed as culture. > > > > The king says he will not turn away from his > > cultural practices no matter what! Selectively so, > > he sticks to his cultural practices when it suits > > him, because there are benefits for him. Which is > > another thing about culture that is worth > > mentioning. More times than not the most vocal > > voices on the adoption of culture are those that > > have a vested interest in the practice at hand. An > > uncle who needs to "cleanse a widow" will probably > > be the loudest about upholding culture, even though > > they may be silent about other aspects of that same > > culture. My point being that culture can be used to > > advance or secure people's positions. > > > > As I sign off, I need to make it clear that I do not > > think that culture is all bad. No in fact I > > appreciate the critical position that particularly > > those in countries that were previously colonised > > are grappling with. A project of recovery of that > > which we were before our culture was tempered with, > > balanced against the reality of the now and who we > > define ourselves as presently as well as the > > challenge of self definition into the future of who > > we want to be. And we sit in a challenging > > position. The true test for all of us though (me > > thinks) in assessing what is acceptable as culture > > and what is not acceptable is whether or not the > > precise in any way takes away from an individual > > (and in turn the collective...community ...based on > > Ubuntu) > > ability to enjoy to its full extent the experience > > of being human. > > > > Until later > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: research > > To: egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > > Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 9:47 AM > > Subject: [Egemtraining] This week's discussion > > topic: Lets Talk!!! > > > > > > Dear All > > > > I am sure most of you have been itching to receive > > the first discussion topic and are ready to roll!!! > > I have been keenly waiting to start as weel. Below > > is the discussion topic and the question at the end > > of the piece. Please remember not to make your > > contribution too long. Just comment as briefly as > > possible to give others a chance to also share their > > opinions. Also remember to "reply to all" so that > > you do not share your opinion just with me but with > > all in the network. Happy reading and looking > > forward to hearing your opinions!!! > > > > > > Where does culture start and stop, and individual > > rights begin? > > > > > > > > I am sure most of us are aware of the > > controversial ongoing court case in Swaziland > > between a mother (Lindiwe Dlamini) and the King (his > > aides) concerning the abduction of an > > 18-year-old-child (Zena) Mahlangu for "royal > > duties". > > > > > > > > For those who have not been following the case, > > the King (who is being sued through his aides, is > > alleged to have abducted the child from school > > without her mother's knowledge and consent. Lindiwe > > wants her child to be returned to her custody and > > the King has been arguing that the child is being > > kept at the Royal Guest House to be prepared to be > > the King's 10th wife. The King was quoted as saying > > at a press conference, "The whole issue has been > > blown out of proportion by those who took advantage > > of trying to destroy our customs and traditions". > > People may say whatever they want to sy but I vow to > > stick to our traditions, no matter what the times > > are. I can be blamed left and right, but the fact of > > the matter is that it is our culture that I should > > marry many wives as I can. I cannot allow myself to > > be forced to follow Western culture". > > > > > > > > The controversy is generally seen as a "clash > > between customs and modernity". According to custom, > > Mswati may choose a new wife each year from among > > the thousands of virgins who attend the annual reed > > dance". Ironically Mswati last year revived a > > traditional ban on sex with underage girls to combat > > HIV/AIDS. > > > > > > > > After protests for the abduction of Zena and two > > other girls, the King fined himself a cow for > > breaking his own royal decree. (BBC News). He was > > also quoted as saying that he was prepared to pay > > cows as fines for selecting the three girls. > > > > > > > > Zena's mother is challenging the alleged > > traditional grabbing of her daughter on the grounds > > that she was not consulted, did not consent and her > > child has been taken out of school and therefore was > > abducted. The King's courtiers (aides) have been > > arguing that the girl was not abducted but went > > willingly. "Everything was arranged between the King > > and the girl and our job was just to pick her at the > > agreed spot. No force was applied". > > > > > > > > Human rights activists have been arguing that > > "traditionalists should stop "raping" girls in the > > name of culture, while royals have been insisting > > that Mswati's selection of Zena to be his bride is a > > traditional issue that must be resolved through > > Swazi customs and culture. > > > > > > > > Gender and human rights activists have noted that > > Zena is a minor child (18 years) and the abduction > > is a criminal offence in that it violates > > > > 1) Lindiwe Dlamini's rights to custody and > > guardianship over her minor child and also that; > > > > 2) Zena's rights to liberty, freedom of movement, > > education, choice of marriage partner, right to be a > > child and bodily integrity. > > > > > > > > Most of us are, I am sure, aware that Swaziland is > > signatory to the SADC Declaration on Gender and > > Development which commits it in article (vii) to, > > among other things, protecting the human rights of > > women and children, which raises a number of > > concerns regarding this case. > > > > > > > > Question for Discussion > > > > > > 1) Where should culture, custom and tradition > > stop and individual human rights begin, to ensure > > the > === message truncated === > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Everything you'll ever need on one web page > from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts > http://uk.my.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > Egemtraining mailing list > Egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > http://lists.sn.apc.org/mailman/listinfo/egemtraining > _______________________________________________ Egemtraining mailing list Egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org http://lists.sn.apc.org/mailman/listinfo/egemtraining From jonij at law.wits.ac.za Tue Nov 19 13:55:38 2002 From: jonij at law.wits.ac.za (Jennifer Joni) Date: Tue Feb 27 14:10:57 2007 Subject: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity References: <20021118160225.65103.qmail@web40911.mail.yahoo.com> <005501c28ee0$c72b7e10$0f00a8c0@MOTH> Message-ID: <001c01c28fc2$93f30580$94228d92@wits.ac.za> maqabane Interesting subject, culture and people wanting to use culture to do their horrendous, violent deeds. There are a few issues that i always grapple with when confronted with these questions, which I honestly believe go to the root of who we are; I mean those of us who are expected to respect our culture. At what point does culture stop being that which we think should be practiced? Is this determined by the western values that have been instilled in us since colonialism? Do we (especially in South Africa) say that we now have a Constitution which says that conduct that is in not in line with the vales in the Constitution, is unconstitutional. Those values being human dignity, equality and blah blah blah. The reason I am raising these concerns emanates from a statement made at the Racism Conference, where one woman stated that we should be cautious of attempts by the other -who is insistent and is forcing the people to abrogate their culture because they think it is oppressive. The yardstick being the western culture. I am not condoning what Moswati is doing but I would like to know what processes need to be put in place to challenge abusive, insulting practices. Do we for example take stock of all those practices that we think perpetuate violence against women? and then decide and agree how we are going to change them? Who does this for us? In my Xhosa culture there are indeed practices that are demeaning, and cause a lot of hardship for women. How do we attend to this. Salani ngoxolo The JJ ----- Original Message ----- From: lindiwe nkutha To: research ; Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 10:59 AM Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > Hi again > > Interestingly as we talk about culture we begin to challaenge our own > beliefs on what constitutes culture as well as how we understand the > workings of it. Critical to this realisation is our understanding and > appreciation of how culture is passed on from generation to generation, > entrenching positions of indivduals and setting precedents that future > genarations will follow often times unquestioned. > > Bakari raises properly the predicament of chicken and egg where culture is > concerned, and so we ask, in the formation of society and the negotiation of > indivual identities which takes more precedent, the indivual make up of > members of communities or the culture into which they are born? And this is > the real quanandram! > > If we agree that culture exists for amongst other reasons as a tempalte on > which our own indivual identities are formed, we agree also that gender > roles are difined in culture; the man as hunter, gatherer and aggressor and > woman as surbesvient receipient of caring, nurtiring etc etc are entrenched > also in culture (and not just African cultures, just about all cultures in > fact). So that we base our understanding of the situation in Swaziland on > this premise, and begin to realise that from generation to generation, women > in Swaziland would gather for the reed dance, half naked or almost entirely > completely naked as Bakari says, is no co-incidence, it is done because it > is a practice that fore ancestors engaged in as part of their cultural > expression ( to what end now, is what we have to grapple with) . > > As a by the way as on my way to my point, I need to say, Swazi people and > in fact most cultures in Southern Africa did not wear anything much before > we were introduced to a western way of dressing...part of our > colonisation...essentially "nudity" was for us never a tabooo. The comment > on nudity reflects how the western way of being have influenced how we see > ourselves. > > Having said that and getting back on course to my point, I need to repeat > what I said yesterday, which Columbus picked up on also, that "customs and > culture can be used to further gains of individuals". The genesis of the > reed dance a Swazi friend informs me, was for the Queen mother, never a > parade for the king to choose his wives. It was for the queen mother to > choose for herself maidens that would help her in her homestead . The "king" > has now appropriated this tradition for himself and has turned it into a > peep show for himself (re-entrenching women's positions as objects of > gaze...for the titilation of his own self). Is it then the practice itself > that is wrong or is the "reason" for its continuance that is oppressive? and > this is the point of this discussion I mantain. Bakari says women in > Swaziland ecxept for my namesake Dlamini agree with the culture and customs. > This statement is not entirely wrong, because if they did not no woman > would send their daughters to the reed dance, and as westernised as we have > become mothers in Swaziland would ensure that if their daughters went they > were fully clothed and so on and so on. > > But why do women continue to send their children? Because women are in most > cases the custodians of culture, and if we all agree that culture in the > wrong hands can be oppressive we begin to appreciate how women remaining > oblivious to their oppression can serve the interests of those who seek to > keep them oppressed. And right here is where I agree fully with Bakari, > knowldge is power! Knowledge and information on the basis of which change > can be negotiated both at an individual and community level has been witheld > for far too long from women. Unless and until women conscientize one another > or are conscientized to a different reality, such abuses as we see in > Swaziland will continue. Because culture is not static, and is ever > changing, what will begin to happen is that together, as women and men we > will begin to build a new culture that defines aptly who we want to be. > Unless that happens (not only in Swaziland) but the world over women will > appear and in fact may just continue to collude in their own oppression. > > Oh dear I'm afraid I have gone on and on...apologies Alice for the lenght of > this, but I guess what I was trying to say in a very round about way is (i) > culture is not static and is capable of being changed by individuals (ii) > women need to be empowred to begin to see the world differently so they > contribute meaningfully to processses that shape their lives, including the > shaping of culture. > > Until next time > > Lindiwe Nkutha > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "bakari machumu" > To: "lindiwe nkutha" ; "research" > ; > Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 6:02 PM > Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > > > > Hi to all, > > This is kind of a tricky situation where one get > > confused on a situation like a chick and egg, what > > comes first. Can't demacate clearly that, from this > > point on, human rights begins. I think if we are to go > > on with this culture, custom and tradition thing, then > > it should be under equal applications for both Men and > > Women. But do women as women know their right in > > Swaziland, i mean with the exception of Lindiwe > > Dlaminimost Swazi women, (its my guess i stand to be > > corrected) agrees with the culture, customs tradition > > thing todate. I mean, i can't imagine them continuing > > parading with their upper bodies and most of the under > > part in such neckedness, that by itself keeps their > > minds in it.To me that, consititutes negative cultural > > practices Now, to solve this thing, i believe on > > agressive, consistent awareness creation.How? that is > > the question > > > > Bakari > > Dar es Salaam > > > > > > > > --- lindiwe nkutha wrote: > > > Hi to all > > > > > > Its an interesting topic isn't it'? the convergence > > > of human rights and custom/ culture etc. Ideally > > > these should not be mutually exclusive, me thinks. I > > > think also that in particular, southern African > > > customs that espouse or purport to espouse the > > > principle of Ubuntu should not at all have a problem > > > with human rights. (but then again there are a lot > > > of things I think that are not necessarily fact). My > > > rationale is if the foundation of the concept of > > > ubuntu which is said to recognise (albeit > > > philosophically) that "I am because you are" is our > > > point of departure then who I am is intrinsically > > > linked to who you are. If you are free, so am I > > > free, if you are oppressed, so am I oppressed, and > > > so on and so on. > > > > > > But because society loves an "other", and > > > patriarchy has worked wonders in "securing women's > > > positions as others", patriarchy in a heavy disguise > > > as culture has always been used as the banner under > > > which abuses of human rights are perpetuated. So > > > that the lines were blurred and everytime we said > > > "I am because you are" and we were speaking as men, > > > it almost felt natural, cultural, in line with dated > > > customs to exclude women. In this context the > > > speaking ""I am...."' is under patriarchy, not > > > considered the speaking female, it is always > > > the"speaking male and this gets termed culturally > > > acceptable practise, but it is not. > > > > > > If we move form the ""ubuntu" premise, we begin to > > > see that the marginalisation and subjugation of > > > women is against the principle said to ground our > > > culture. If we accept, and perhaps this is one > > > aspect in our "evolution - culturally" that we left > > > behind, the acceptance that the speaking "I am..." > > > is both male and female, then within culture we > > > begin to see that some of the things that get > > > justified as culture are in fact not cultural, but > > > are patriarchal practices dressed as culture. > > > > > > The king says he will not turn away from his > > > cultural practices no matter what! Selectively so, > > > he sticks to his cultural practices when it suits > > > him, because there are benefits for him. Which is > > > another thing about culture that is worth > > > mentioning. More times than not the most vocal > > > voices on the adoption of culture are those that > > > have a vested interest in the practice at hand. An > > > uncle who needs to "cleanse a widow" will probably > > > be the loudest about upholding culture, even though > > > they may be silent about other aspects of that same > > > culture. My point being that culture can be used to > > > advance or secure people's positions. > > > > > > As I sign off, I need to make it clear that I do not > > > think that culture is all bad. No in fact I > > > appreciate the critical position that particularly > > > those in countries that were previously colonised > > > are grappling with. A project of recovery of that > > > which we were before our culture was tempered with, > > > balanced against the reality of the now and who we > > > define ourselves as presently as well as the > > > challenge of self definition into the future of who > > > we want to be. And we sit in a challenging > > > position. The true test for all of us though (me > > > thinks) in assessing what is acceptable as culture > > > and what is not acceptable is whether or not the > > > precise in any way takes away from an individual > > > (and in turn the collective...community ...based on > > > Ubuntu) > > > ability to enjoy to its full extent the experience > > > of being human. > > > > > > Until later > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: research > > > To: egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > > > Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 9:47 AM > > > Subject: [Egemtraining] This week's discussion > > > topic: Lets Talk!!! > > > > > > > > > Dear All > > > > > > I am sure most of you have been itching to receive > > > the first discussion topic and are ready to roll!!! > > > I have been keenly waiting to start as weel. Below > > > is the discussion topic and the question at the end > > > of the piece. Please remember not to make your > > > contribution too long. Just comment as briefly as > > > possible to give others a chance to also share their > > > opinions. Also remember to "reply to all" so that > > > you do not share your opinion just with me but with > > > all in the network. Happy reading and looking > > > forward to hearing your opinions!!! > > > > > > > > > Where does culture start and stop, and individual > > > rights begin? > > > > > > > > > > > > I am sure most of us are aware of the > > > controversial ongoing court case in Swaziland > > > between a mother (Lindiwe Dlamini) and the King (his > > > aides) concerning the abduction of an > > > 18-year-old-child (Zena) Mahlangu for "royal > > > duties". > > > > > > > > > > > > For those who have not been following the case, > > > the King (who is being sued through his aides, is > > > alleged to have abducted the child from school > > > without her mother's knowledge and consent. Lindiwe > > > wants her child to be returned to her custody and > > > the King has been arguing that the child is being > > > kept at the Royal Guest House to be prepared to be > > > the King's 10th wife. The King was quoted as saying > > > at a press conference, "The whole issue has been > > > blown out of proportion by those who took advantage > > > of trying to destroy our customs and traditions". > > > People may say whatever they want to sy but I vow to > > > stick to our traditions, no matter what the times > > > are. I can be blamed left and right, but the fact of > > > the matter is that it is our culture that I should > > > marry many wives as I can. I cannot allow myself to > > > be forced to follow Western culture". > > > > > > > > > > > > The controversy is generally seen as a "clash > > > between customs and modernity". According to custom, > > > Mswati may choose a new wife each year from among > > > the thousands of virgins who attend the annual reed > > > dance". Ironically Mswati last year revived a > > > traditional ban on sex with underage girls to combat > > > HIV/AIDS. > > > > > > > > > > > > After protests for the abduction of Zena and two > > > other girls, the King fined himself a cow for > > > breaking his own royal decree. (BBC News). He was > > > also quoted as saying that he was prepared to pay > > > cows as fines for selecting the three girls. > > > > > > > > > > > > Zena's mother is challenging the alleged > > > traditional grabbing of her daughter on the grounds > > > that she was not consulted, did not consent and her > > > child has been taken out of school and therefore was > > > abducted. The King's courtiers (aides) have been > > > arguing that the girl was not abducted but went > > > willingly. "Everything was arranged between the King > > > and the girl and our job was just to pick her at the > > > agreed spot. No force was applied". > > > > > > > > > > > > Human rights activists have been arguing that > > > "traditionalists should stop "raping" girls in the > > > name of culture, while royals have been insisting > > > that Mswati's selection of Zena to be his bride is a > > > traditional issue that must be resolved through > > > Swazi customs and culture. > > > > > > > > > > > > Gender and human rights activists have noted that > > > Zena is a minor child (18 years) and the abduction > > > is a criminal offence in that it violates > > > > > > 1) Lindiwe Dlamini's rights to custody and > > > guardianship over her minor child and also that; > > > > > > 2) Zena's rights to liberty, freedom of movement, > > > education, choice of marriage partner, right to be a > > > child and bodily integrity. > > > > > > > > > > > > Most of us are, I am sure, aware that Swaziland is > > > signatory to the SADC Declaration on Gender and > > > Development which commits it in article (vii) to, > > > among other things, protecting the human rights of > > > women and children, which raises a number of > > > concerns regarding this case. > > > > > > > > > > > > Question for Discussion > > > > > > > > > 1) Where should culture, custom and tradition > > > stop and individual human rights begin, to ensure > > > the > > === message truncated === > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Everything you'll ever need on one web page > > from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts > > http://uk.my.yahoo.com > > _______________________________________________ > > Egemtraining mailing list > > Egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > > http://lists.sn.apc.org/mailman/listinfo/egemtraining > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Egemtraining mailing list > Egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > http://lists.sn.apc.org/mailman/listinfo/egemtraining > From katenchimbi at hotmail.com Tue Nov 19 14:20:09 2002 From: katenchimbi at hotmail.com (KATE NCHIMBI) Date: Tue Feb 27 14:10:57 2007 Subject: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.sn.apc.org/pipermail/egemtraining/attachments/20021119/710cb073/attachment.htm From mmcdonough at irex.org Tue Nov 19 16:37:37 2002 From: mmcdonough at irex.org (Maggie McDonough) Date: Tue Feb 27 14:10:57 2007 Subject: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity Message-ID: <51E0CF9C2CF499478C33F3D4FFD3763097BEC2@exchange.irex.org> Hello again, I think Jennifer raised some interesting points here, but there is one point in particular that I would like to address -- that is, the concept of human rights being determined by western/colonial values. I actually do not accept that human rights is a uniquely western concept. Human rights have been invoked by people throughout the world, both historically and contemporaneously. Human rights formed the basis of the Non-cooperation Movement AGAINST the British in colonial India. Human rights have formed the basis against the authoritarian and military regimes of Europe and Eurasia. Mass movements (e.g. for gender equality, environmental protection, etc) have gained untold strength and sustenance from human rights issues. The list can go on. Anyway, just wanted to add my two cents on this point. Maggie -----Original Message----- From: Jennifer Joni [mailto:jonij@law.wits.ac.za] Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 6:56 AM To: research; egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity maqabane Interesting subject, culture and people wanting to use culture to do their horrendous, violent deeds. There are a few issues that i always grapple with when confronted with these questions, which I honestly believe go to the root of who we are; I mean those of us who are expected to respect our culture. At what point does culture stop being that which we think should be practiced? Is this determined by the western values that have been instilled in us since colonialism? Do we (especially in South Africa) say that we now have a Constitution which says that conduct that is in not in line with the vales in the Constitution, is unconstitutional. Those values being human dignity, equality and blah blah blah. The reason I am raising these concerns emanates from a statement made at the Racism Conference, where one woman stated that we should be cautious of attempts by the other -who is insistent and is forcing the people to abrogate their culture because they think it is oppressive. The yardstick being the western culture. I am not condoning what Moswati is doing but I would like to know what processes need to be put in place to challenge abusive, insulting practices. Do we for example take stock of all those practices that we think perpetuate violence against women? and then decide and agree how we are going to change them? Who does this for us? In my Xhosa culture there are indeed practices that are demeaning, and cause a lot of hardship for women. How do we attend to this. Salani ngoxolo The JJ ----- Original Message ----- From: lindiwe nkutha To: research ; Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 10:59 AM Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > Hi again > > Interestingly as we talk about culture we begin to challaenge our own > beliefs on what constitutes culture as well as how we understand the > workings of it. Critical to this realisation is our understanding and > appreciation of how culture is passed on from generation to > generation, entrenching positions of indivduals and setting precedents > that future genarations will follow often times unquestioned. > > Bakari raises properly the predicament of chicken and egg where > culture is concerned, and so we ask, in the formation of society and > the negotiation of > indivual identities which takes more precedent, the indivual make up > of members of communities or the culture into which they are born? And > this is > the real quanandram! > > If we agree that culture exists for amongst other reasons as a > tempalte on which our own indivual identities are formed, we agree > also that gender roles are difined in culture; the man as hunter, > gatherer and aggressor and > woman as surbesvient receipient of caring, nurtiring etc etc are entrenched > also in culture (and not just African cultures, just about all > cultures in fact). So that we base our understanding of the situation > in Swaziland on this premise, and begin to realise that from > generation to generation, women > in Swaziland would gather for the reed dance, half naked or almost entirely > completely naked as Bakari says, is no co-incidence, it is done > because it is a practice that fore ancestors engaged in as part of > their cultural expression ( to what end now, is what we have to > grapple with) . > > As a by the way as on my way to my point, I need to say, Swazi people > and in fact most cultures in Southern Africa did not wear anything > much before we were introduced to a western way of dressing...part of > our colonisation...essentially "nudity" was for us never a tabooo. The > comment on nudity reflects how the western way of being have > influenced how we see ourselves. > > Having said that and getting back on course to my point, I need to > repeat what I said yesterday, which Columbus picked up on also, that > "customs and culture can be used to further gains of individuals". The > genesis of the reed dance a Swazi friend informs me, was for the > Queen mother, never a parade for the king to choose his wives. It was > for the queen mother to choose for herself maidens that would help her > in her homestead . The "king" > has now appropriated this tradition for himself and has turned it into > a peep show for himself (re-entrenching women's positions as objects > of gaze...for the titilation of his own self). Is it then the practice > itself that is wrong or is the "reason" for its continuance that is > oppressive? and > this is the point of this discussion I mantain. Bakari says women in > Swaziland ecxept for my namesake Dlamini agree with the culture and customs. > This statement is not entirely wrong, because if they did not no > woman would send their daughters to the reed dance, and as > westernised as we have > become mothers in Swaziland would ensure that if their daughters went > they were fully clothed and so on and so on. > > But why do women continue to send their children? Because women are in most > cases the custodians of culture, and if we all agree that culture in > the wrong hands can be oppressive we begin to appreciate how women > remaining oblivious to their oppression can serve the interests of > those who seek to keep them oppressed. And right here is where I agree > fully with Bakari, knowldge is power! Knowledge and information on the > basis of which change can be negotiated both at an individual and > community level has been witheld > for far too long from women. Unless and until women conscientize one another > or are conscientized to a different reality, such abuses as we see in > Swaziland will continue. Because culture is not static, and is ever > changing, what will begin to happen is that together, as women and > men we will begin to build a new culture that defines aptly who we > want to be. Unless that happens (not only in Swaziland) but the world > over women will appear and in fact may just continue to collude in > their own oppression. > > Oh dear I'm afraid I have gone on and on...apologies Alice for the > lenght of > this, but I guess what I was trying to say in a very round about way > is (i) > culture is not static and is capable of being changed by individuals > (ii) women need to be empowred to begin to see the world differently > so they contribute meaningfully to processses that shape their lives, > including the > shaping of culture. > > Until next time > > Lindiwe Nkutha > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "bakari machumu" > To: "lindiwe nkutha" ; "research" > ; > Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 6:02 PM > Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > > > > Hi to all, > > This is kind of a tricky situation where one get > > confused on a situation like a chick and egg, what > > comes first. Can't demacate clearly that, from this > > point on, human rights begins. I think if we are to go > > on with this culture, custom and tradition thing, then > > it should be under equal applications for both Men and Women. But do > > women as women know their right in Swaziland, i mean with the > > exception of Lindiwe Dlaminimost Swazi women, (its my guess i stand > > to be > > corrected) agrees with the culture, customs tradition > > thing todate. I mean, i can't imagine them continuing parading with > > their upper bodies and most of the under part in such neckedness, > > that by itself keeps their minds in it.To me that, consititutes > > negative cultural practices Now, to solve this thing, i believe on > > agressive, consistent awareness creation.How? that is > > the question > > > > Bakari > > Dar es Salaam > > > > > > > > --- lindiwe nkutha wrote: > > > Hi to all > > > > > > Its an interesting topic isn't it'? the convergence > > > of human rights and custom/ culture etc. Ideally > > > these should not be mutually exclusive, me thinks. I think also > > > that in particular, southern African customs that espouse or > > > purport to espouse the principle of Ubuntu should not at all have > > > a problem with human rights. (but then again there are a lot > > > of things I think that are not necessarily fact). My > > > rationale is if the foundation of the concept of > > > ubuntu which is said to recognise (albeit > > > philosophically) that "I am because you are" is our > > > point of departure then who I am is intrinsically > > > linked to who you are. If you are free, so am I > > > free, if you are oppressed, so am I oppressed, and > > > so on and so on. > > > > > > But because society loves an "other", and > > > patriarchy has worked wonders in "securing women's positions as > > > others", patriarchy in a heavy disguise as culture has always been > > > used as the banner under which abuses of human rights are > > > perpetuated. So that the lines were blurred and everytime we said > > > "I am because you are" and we were speaking as men, > > > it almost felt natural, cultural, in line with dated > > > customs to exclude women. In this context the > > > speaking ""I am...."' is under patriarchy, not > > > considered the speaking female, it is always > > > the"speaking male and this gets termed culturally > > > acceptable practise, but it is not. > > > > > > If we move form the ""ubuntu" premise, we begin to > > > see that the marginalisation and subjugation of > > > women is against the principle said to ground our culture. If we > > > accept, and perhaps this is one aspect in our "evolution - > > > culturally" that we left behind, the acceptance that the speaking > > > "I am..." is both male and female, then within culture we > > > begin to see that some of the things that get > > > justified as culture are in fact not cultural, but > > > are patriarchal practices dressed as culture. > > > > > > The king says he will not turn away from his > > > cultural practices no matter what! Selectively so, > > > he sticks to his cultural practices when it suits > > > him, because there are benefits for him. Which is > > > another thing about culture that is worth > > > mentioning. More times than not the most vocal > > > voices on the adoption of culture are those that > > > have a vested interest in the practice at hand. An > > > uncle who needs to "cleanse a widow" will probably > > > be the loudest about upholding culture, even though > > > they may be silent about other aspects of that same culture. My > > > point being that culture can be used to advance or secure people's > > > positions. > > > > > > As I sign off, I need to make it clear that I do not think that > > > culture is all bad. No in fact I appreciate the critical position > > > that particularly those in countries that were previously > > > colonised are grappling with. A project of recovery of that > > > which we were before our culture was tempered with, > > > balanced against the reality of the now and who we > > > define ourselves as presently as well as the > > > challenge of self definition into the future of who > > > we want to be. And we sit in a challenging > > > position. The true test for all of us though (me > > > thinks) in assessing what is acceptable as culture > > > and what is not acceptable is whether or not the > > > precise in any way takes away from an individual > > > (and in turn the collective...community ...based on > > > Ubuntu) > > > ability to enjoy to its full extent the experience > > > of being human. > > > > > > Until later > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: research > > > To: egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > > > Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 9:47 AM > > > Subject: [Egemtraining] This week's discussion > > > topic: Lets Talk!!! > > > > > > > > > Dear All > > > > > > I am sure most of you have been itching to receive > > > the first discussion topic and are ready to roll!!! > > > I have been keenly waiting to start as weel. Below > > > is the discussion topic and the question at the end > > > of the piece. Please remember not to make your contribution too > > > long. Just comment as briefly as possible to give others a chance > > > to also share their opinions. Also remember to "reply to all" so > > > that you do not share your opinion just with me but with > > > all in the network. Happy reading and looking > > > forward to hearing your opinions!!! > > > > > > > > > Where does culture start and stop, and individual rights begin? > > > > > > > > > > > > I am sure most of us are aware of the > > > controversial ongoing court case in Swaziland > > > between a mother (Lindiwe Dlamini) and the King (his > > > aides) concerning the abduction of an > > > 18-year-old-child (Zena) Mahlangu for "royal > > > duties". > > > > > > > > > > > > For those who have not been following the case, > > > the King (who is being sued through his aides, is > > > alleged to have abducted the child from school > > > without her mother's knowledge and consent. Lindiwe > > > wants her child to be returned to her custody and > > > the King has been arguing that the child is being > > > kept at the Royal Guest House to be prepared to be > > > the King's 10th wife. The King was quoted as saying > > > at a press conference, "The whole issue has been > > > blown out of proportion by those who took advantage > > > of trying to destroy our customs and traditions". > > > People may say whatever they want to sy but I vow to > > > stick to our traditions, no matter what the times > > > are. I can be blamed left and right, but the fact of > > > the matter is that it is our culture that I should > > > marry many wives as I can. I cannot allow myself to > > > be forced to follow Western culture". > > > > > > > > > > > > The controversy is generally seen as a "clash > > > between customs and modernity". According to custom, > > > Mswati may choose a new wife each year from among > > > the thousands of virgins who attend the annual reed > > > dance". Ironically Mswati last year revived a > > > traditional ban on sex with underage girls to combat > > > HIV/AIDS. > > > > > > > > > > > > After protests for the abduction of Zena and two > > > other girls, the King fined himself a cow for > > > breaking his own royal decree. (BBC News). He was > > > also quoted as saying that he was prepared to pay > > > cows as fines for selecting the three girls. > > > > > > > > > > > > Zena's mother is challenging the alleged > > > traditional grabbing of her daughter on the grounds > > > that she was not consulted, did not consent and her > > > child has been taken out of school and therefore was > > > abducted. The King's courtiers (aides) have been > > > arguing that the girl was not abducted but went > > > willingly. "Everything was arranged between the King > > > and the girl and our job was just to pick her at the > > > agreed spot. No force was applied". > > > > > > > > > > > > Human rights activists have been arguing that > > > "traditionalists should stop "raping" girls in the > > > name of culture, while royals have been insisting > > > that Mswati's selection of Zena to be his bride is a > > > traditional issue that must be resolved through > > > Swazi customs and culture. > > > > > > > > > > > > Gender and human rights activists have noted that > > > Zena is a minor child (18 years) and the abduction > > > is a criminal offence in that it violates > > > > > > 1) Lindiwe Dlamini's rights to custody and > > > guardianship over her minor child and also that; > > > > > > 2) Zena's rights to liberty, freedom of movement, > > > education, choice of marriage partner, right to be a > > > child and bodily integrity. > > > > > > > > > > > > Most of us are, I am sure, aware that Swaziland is > > > signatory to the SADC Declaration on Gender and > > > Development which commits it in article (vii) to, > > > among other things, protecting the human rights of > > > women and children, which raises a number of > > > concerns regarding this case. > > > > > > > > > > > > Question for Discussion > > > > > > > > > 1) Where should culture, custom and tradition > > > stop and individual human rights begin, to ensure > > > the > > === message truncated === > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Everything you'll ever need on one web page > > from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts > > http://uk.my.yahoo.com > > _______________________________________________ > > Egemtraining mailing list > > Egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > > http://lists.sn.apc.org/mailman/listinfo/egemtraining > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Egemtraining mailing list > Egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > http://lists.sn.apc.org/mailman/listinfo/egemtraining > _______________________________________________ Egemtraining mailing list Egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org http://lists.sn.apc.org/mailman/listinfo/egemtraining From jonij at law.wits.ac.za Tue Nov 19 16:52:56 2002 From: jonij at law.wits.ac.za (Jennifer Joni) Date: Tue Feb 27 14:10:57 2007 Subject: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity References: <51E0CF9C2CF499478C33F3D4FFD3763097BEC2@exchange.irex.org> Message-ID: <000a01c28fdb$58cdfe60$94228d92@wits.ac.za> Maggie, just a pint of clarity. What I was trying to say is that we get caught up in two situations. One is the human rights debate, which I said is meant to determine which of our cultural values should remain, that is does the particular custom /practice pass the constitutional scrutiny. Second, is then the issue about western values that sometimes get used to determine which cultural values should remain. I am not at all suggesting an interrelation between the two concepts. Human rights are the best thing that has ever happened to planet earth, the question is: is using the human rights stick or constitutional arguments relevant in I think we are all trying to uncover here? The JJ ----- Original Message ----- From: Maggie McDonough To: 'Jennifer Joni' ; research ; Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 4:37 PM Subject: RE: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > Hello again, > > I think Jennifer raised some interesting points here, but there is one point > in particular that I would like to address -- that is, the concept of human > rights being determined by western/colonial values. I actually do not > accept that human rights is a uniquely western concept. Human rights have > been invoked by people throughout the world, both historically and > contemporaneously. Human rights formed the basis of the Non-cooperation > Movement AGAINST the British in colonial India. Human rights have formed > the basis against the authoritarian and military regimes of Europe and > Eurasia. Mass movements (e.g. for gender equality, environmental > protection, etc) have gained untold strength and sustenance from human > rights issues. The list can go on. > > Anyway, just wanted to add my two cents on this point. > > Maggie > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jennifer Joni [mailto:jonij@law.wits.ac.za] > Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 6:56 AM > To: research; egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > > > maqabane > > Interesting subject, culture and people wanting to use culture to do their > horrendous, violent deeds. There are a few issues that i always grapple > with when confronted with these questions, which I honestly believe go to > the root of who we are; I mean those of us who are expected to respect our > culture. At what point does culture stop being that which we think should be > practiced? Is this determined by the western values that have been > instilled in us since colonialism? Do we (especially in South Africa) say > that we now have a Constitution which says that conduct that is in not in > line with the vales in the Constitution, is unconstitutional. Those values > being human dignity, equality and blah blah blah. The reason I am raising > these concerns emanates from a statement made at the Racism Conference, > where one woman stated that we should be cautious of attempts by the other > -who is insistent and is forcing the people to abrogate their culture > because they think it is oppressive. The yardstick being the western > culture. I am not condoning what Moswati is doing but I would like to know > what processes need to be put in place to challenge abusive, insulting > practices. Do we for example take stock of all those practices that we think > perpetuate violence against women? and then decide and agree how we are > going to change them? Who does this for us? In my Xhosa culture there are > indeed practices that are demeaning, and cause a lot of hardship for women. > How do we attend to this. > > Salani ngoxolo > The JJ > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: lindiwe nkutha > To: research ; > Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 10:59 AM > Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > > > > Hi again > > > > Interestingly as we talk about culture we begin to challaenge our own > > beliefs on what constitutes culture as well as how we understand the > > workings of it. Critical to this realisation is our understanding and > > appreciation of how culture is passed on from generation to > > generation, entrenching positions of indivduals and setting precedents > > that future genarations will follow often times unquestioned. > > > > Bakari raises properly the predicament of chicken and egg where > > culture is concerned, and so we ask, in the formation of society and > > the negotiation > of > > indivual identities which takes more precedent, the indivual make up > > of members of communities or the culture into which they are born? And > > this > is > > the real quanandram! > > > > If we agree that culture exists for amongst other reasons as a > > tempalte on which our own indivual identities are formed, we agree > > also that gender roles are difined in culture; the man as hunter, > > gatherer and aggressor > and > > woman as surbesvient receipient of caring, nurtiring etc etc are > entrenched > > also in culture (and not just African cultures, just about all > > cultures in fact). So that we base our understanding of the situation > > in Swaziland on this premise, and begin to realise that from > > generation to generation, > women > > in Swaziland would gather for the reed dance, half naked or almost > entirely > > completely naked as Bakari says, is no co-incidence, it is done > > because it is a practice that fore ancestors engaged in as part of > > their cultural expression ( to what end now, is what we have to > > grapple with) . > > > > As a by the way as on my way to my point, I need to say, Swazi people > > and in fact most cultures in Southern Africa did not wear anything > > much before we were introduced to a western way of dressing...part of > > our colonisation...essentially "nudity" was for us never a tabooo. The > > comment on nudity reflects how the western way of being have > > influenced how we see ourselves. > > > > Having said that and getting back on course to my point, I need to > > repeat what I said yesterday, which Columbus picked up on also, that > > "customs and culture can be used to further gains of individuals". The > > genesis of the reed dance a Swazi friend informs me, was for the > > Queen mother, never a parade for the king to choose his wives. It was > > for the queen mother to choose for herself maidens that would help her > > in her homestead . The > "king" > > has now appropriated this tradition for himself and has turned it into > > a peep show for himself (re-entrenching women's positions as objects > > of gaze...for the titilation of his own self). Is it then the practice > > itself that is wrong or is the "reason" for its continuance that is > > oppressive? > and > > this is the point of this discussion I mantain. Bakari says women in > > Swaziland ecxept for my namesake Dlamini agree with the culture and > customs. > > This statement is not entirely wrong, because if they did not no > > woman would send their daughters to the reed dance, and as > > westernised as we > have > > become mothers in Swaziland would ensure that if their daughters went > > they were fully clothed and so on and so on. > > > > But why do women continue to send their children? Because women are in > most > > cases the custodians of culture, and if we all agree that culture in > > the wrong hands can be oppressive we begin to appreciate how women > > remaining oblivious to their oppression can serve the interests of > > those who seek to keep them oppressed. And right here is where I agree > > fully with Bakari, knowldge is power! Knowledge and information on the > > basis of which change can be negotiated both at an individual and > > community level has been > witheld > > for far too long from women. Unless and until women conscientize one > another > > or are conscientized to a different reality, such abuses as we see in > > Swaziland will continue. Because culture is not static, and is ever > > changing, what will begin to happen is that together, as women and > > men we will begin to build a new culture that defines aptly who we > > want to be. Unless that happens (not only in Swaziland) but the world > > over women will appear and in fact may just continue to collude in > > their own oppression. > > > > Oh dear I'm afraid I have gone on and on...apologies Alice for the > > lenght > of > > this, but I guess what I was trying to say in a very round about way > > is > (i) > > culture is not static and is capable of being changed by individuals > > (ii) women need to be empowred to begin to see the world differently > > so they contribute meaningfully to processses that shape their lives, > > including > the > > shaping of culture. > > > > Until next time > > > > Lindiwe Nkutha > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "bakari machumu" > > To: "lindiwe nkutha" ; "research" > > ; > > Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 6:02 PM > > Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > > > > > > > Hi to all, > > > This is kind of a tricky situation where one get > > > confused on a situation like a chick and egg, what > > > comes first. Can't demacate clearly that, from this > > > point on, human rights begins. I think if we are to go > > > on with this culture, custom and tradition thing, then > > > it should be under equal applications for both Men and Women. But do > > > women as women know their right in Swaziland, i mean with the > > > exception of Lindiwe Dlaminimost Swazi women, (its my guess i stand > > > to be > > > corrected) agrees with the culture, customs tradition > > > thing todate. I mean, i can't imagine them continuing parading with > > > their upper bodies and most of the under part in such neckedness, > > > that by itself keeps their minds in it.To me that, consititutes > > > negative cultural practices Now, to solve this thing, i believe on > > > agressive, consistent awareness creation.How? that is > > > the question > > > > > > Bakari > > > Dar es Salaam > > > > > > > > > > > > --- lindiwe nkutha wrote: > > > > Hi to all > > > > > > > > Its an interesting topic isn't it'? the convergence > > > > of human rights and custom/ culture etc. Ideally > > > > these should not be mutually exclusive, me thinks. I think also > > > > that in particular, southern African customs that espouse or > > > > purport to espouse the principle of Ubuntu should not at all have > > > > a problem with human rights. (but then again there are a lot > > > > of things I think that are not necessarily fact). My > > > > rationale is if the foundation of the concept of > > > > ubuntu which is said to recognise (albeit > > > > philosophically) that "I am because you are" is our > > > > point of departure then who I am is intrinsically > > > > linked to who you are. If you are free, so am I > > > > free, if you are oppressed, so am I oppressed, and > > > > so on and so on. > > > > > > > > But because society loves an "other", and > > > > patriarchy has worked wonders in "securing women's positions as > > > > others", patriarchy in a heavy disguise as culture has always been > > > > used as the banner under which abuses of human rights are > > > > perpetuated. So that the lines were blurred and everytime we said > > > > "I am because you are" and we were speaking as men, > > > > it almost felt natural, cultural, in line with dated > > > > customs to exclude women. In this context the > > > > speaking ""I am...."' is under patriarchy, not > > > > considered the speaking female, it is always > > > > the"speaking male and this gets termed culturally > > > > acceptable practise, but it is not. > > > > > > > > If we move form the ""ubuntu" premise, we begin to > > > > see that the marginalisation and subjugation of > > > > women is against the principle said to ground our culture. If we > > > > accept, and perhaps this is one aspect in our "evolution - > > > > culturally" that we left behind, the acceptance that the speaking > > > > "I am..." is both male and female, then within culture we > > > > begin to see that some of the things that get > > > > justified as culture are in fact not cultural, but > > > > are patriarchal practices dressed as culture. > > > > > > > > The king says he will not turn away from his > > > > cultural practices no matter what! Selectively so, > > > > he sticks to his cultural practices when it suits > > > > him, because there are benefits for him. Which is > > > > another thing about culture that is worth > > > > mentioning. More times than not the most vocal > > > > voices on the adoption of culture are those that > > > > have a vested interest in the practice at hand. An > > > > uncle who needs to "cleanse a widow" will probably > > > > be the loudest about upholding culture, even though > > > > they may be silent about other aspects of that same culture. My > > > > point being that culture can be used to advance or secure people's > > > > positions. > > > > > > > > As I sign off, I need to make it clear that I do not think that > > > > culture is all bad. No in fact I appreciate the critical position > > > > that particularly those in countries that were previously > > > > colonised are grappling with. A project of recovery of that > > > > which we were before our culture was tempered with, > > > > balanced against the reality of the now and who we > > > > define ourselves as presently as well as the > > > > challenge of self definition into the future of who > > > > we want to be. And we sit in a challenging > > > > position. The true test for all of us though (me > > > > thinks) in assessing what is acceptable as culture > > > > and what is not acceptable is whether or not the > > > > precise in any way takes away from an individual > > > > (and in turn the collective...community ...based on > > > > Ubuntu) > > > > ability to enjoy to its full extent the experience > > > > of being human. > > > > > > > > Until later > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: research > > > > To: egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > > > > Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 9:47 AM > > > > Subject: [Egemtraining] This week's discussion > > > > topic: Lets Talk!!! > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear All > > > > > > > > I am sure most of you have been itching to receive > > > > the first discussion topic and are ready to roll!!! > > > > I have been keenly waiting to start as weel. Below > > > > is the discussion topic and the question at the end > > > > of the piece. Please remember not to make your contribution too > > > > long. Just comment as briefly as possible to give others a chance > > > > to also share their opinions. Also remember to "reply to all" so > > > > that you do not share your opinion just with me but with > > > > all in the network. Happy reading and looking > > > > forward to hearing your opinions!!! > > > > > > > > > > > > Where does culture start and stop, and individual rights begin? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am sure most of us are aware of the > > > > controversial ongoing court case in Swaziland > > > > between a mother (Lindiwe Dlamini) and the King (his > > > > aides) concerning the abduction of an > > > > 18-year-old-child (Zena) Mahlangu for "royal > > > > duties". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For those who have not been following the case, > > > > the King (who is being sued through his aides, is > > > > alleged to have abducted the child from school > > > > without her mother's knowledge and consent. Lindiwe > > > > wants her child to be returned to her custody and > > > > the King has been arguing that the child is being > > > > kept at the Royal Guest House to be prepared to be > > > > the King's 10th wife. The King was quoted as saying > > > > at a press conference, "The whole issue has been > > > > blown out of proportion by those who took advantage > > > > of trying to destroy our customs and traditions". > > > > People may say whatever they want to sy but I vow to > > > > stick to our traditions, no matter what the times > > > > are. I can be blamed left and right, but the fact of > > > > the matter is that it is our culture that I should > > > > marry many wives as I can. I cannot allow myself to > > > > be forced to follow Western culture". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The controversy is generally seen as a "clash > > > > between customs and modernity". According to custom, > > > > Mswati may choose a new wife each year from among > > > > the thousands of virgins who attend the annual reed > > > > dance". Ironically Mswati last year revived a > > > > traditional ban on sex with underage girls to combat > > > > HIV/AIDS. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > After protests for the abduction of Zena and two > > > > other girls, the King fined himself a cow for > > > > breaking his own royal decree. (BBC News). He was > > > > also quoted as saying that he was prepared to pay > > > > cows as fines for selecting the three girls. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Zena's mother is challenging the alleged > > > > traditional grabbing of her daughter on the grounds > > > > that she was not consulted, did not consent and her > > > > child has been taken out of school and therefore was > > > > abducted. The King's courtiers (aides) have been > > > > arguing that the girl was not abducted but went > > > > willingly. "Everything was arranged between the King > > > > and the girl and our job was just to pick her at the > > > > agreed spot. No force was applied". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Human rights activists have been arguing that > > > > "traditionalists should stop "raping" girls in the > > > > name of culture, while royals have been insisting > > > > that Mswati's selection of Zena to be his bride is a > > > > traditional issue that must be resolved through > > > > Swazi customs and culture. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gender and human rights activists have noted that > > > > Zena is a minor child (18 years) and the abduction > > > > is a criminal offence in that it violates > > > > > > > > 1) Lindiwe Dlamini's rights to custody and > > > > guardianship over her minor child and also that; > > > > > > > > 2) Zena's rights to liberty, freedom of movement, > > > > education, choice of marriage partner, right to be a > > > > child and bodily integrity. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Most of us are, I am sure, aware that Swaziland is > > > > signatory to the SADC Declaration on Gender and > > > > Development which commits it in article (vii) to, > > > > among other things, protecting the human rights of > > > > women and children, which raises a number of > > > > concerns regarding this case. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Question for Discussion > > > > > > > > > > > > 1) Where should culture, custom and tradition > > > > stop and individual human rights begin, to ensure > > > > the > > > === message truncated === > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > Everything you'll ever need on one web page > > > from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts > > > http://uk.my.yahoo.com > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Egemtraining mailing list > > > Egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > > > http://lists.sn.apc.org/mailman/listinfo/egemtraining > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Egemtraining mailing list > > Egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > > http://lists.sn.apc.org/mailman/listinfo/egemtraining > > > > _______________________________________________ > Egemtraining mailing list > Egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > http://lists.sn.apc.org/mailman/listinfo/egemtraining > _______________________________________________ > Egemtraining mailing list > Egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > http://lists.sn.apc.org/mailman/listinfo/egemtraining > From mmcdonough at irex.org Tue Nov 19 17:02:15 2002 From: mmcdonough at irex.org (Maggie McDonough) Date: Tue Feb 27 14:10:57 2007 Subject: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity Message-ID: <51E0CF9C2CF499478C33F3D4FFD3763097BEC5@exchange.irex.org> Jennifer, point understood and well taken. Thanks! -----Original Message----- From: Jennifer Joni [mailto:jonij@law.wits.ac.za] Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 9:53 AM To: Maggie McDonough; research; egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity Maggie, just a pint of clarity. What I was trying to say is that we get caught up in two situations. One is the human rights debate, which I said is meant to determine which of our cultural values should remain, that is does the particular custom /practice pass the constitutional scrutiny. Second, is then the issue about western values that sometimes get used to determine which cultural values should remain. I am not at all suggesting an interrelation between the two concepts. Human rights are the best thing that has ever happened to planet earth, the question is: is using the human rights stick or constitutional arguments relevant in I think we are all trying to uncover here? The JJ ----- Original Message ----- From: Maggie McDonough To: 'Jennifer Joni' ; research ; Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 4:37 PM Subject: RE: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > Hello again, > > I think Jennifer raised some interesting points here, but there is one point > in particular that I would like to address -- that is, the concept of human > rights being determined by western/colonial values. I actually do not > accept that human rights is a uniquely western concept. Human rights > have been invoked by people throughout the world, both historically > and contemporaneously. Human rights formed the basis of the > Non-cooperation Movement AGAINST the British in colonial India. Human > rights have formed the basis against the authoritarian and military > regimes of Europe and Eurasia. Mass movements (e.g. for gender > equality, environmental protection, etc) have gained untold strength > and sustenance from human rights issues. The list can go on. > > Anyway, just wanted to add my two cents on this point. > > Maggie > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jennifer Joni [mailto:jonij@law.wits.ac.za] > Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 6:56 AM > To: research; egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > > > maqabane > > Interesting subject, culture and people wanting to use culture to do > their horrendous, violent deeds. There are a few issues that i always > grapple with when confronted with these questions, which I honestly > believe go to the root of who we are; I mean those of us who are > expected to respect our culture. At what point does culture stop being > that which we think should be > practiced? Is this determined by the western values that have been > instilled in us since colonialism? Do we (especially in South Africa) > say that we now have a Constitution which says that conduct that is in > not in line with the vales in the Constitution, is unconstitutional. > Those values > being human dignity, equality and blah blah blah. The reason I am > raising these concerns emanates from a statement made at the Racism > Conference, where one woman stated that we should be cautious of > attempts by the other -who is insistent and is forcing the people to > abrogate their culture because they think it is oppressive. The > yardstick being the western culture. I am not condoning what Moswati > is doing but I would like to know what processes need to be put in > place to challenge abusive, insulting practices. Do we for example > take stock of all those practices that we think > perpetuate violence against women? and then decide and agree how we > are going to change them? Who does this for us? In my Xhosa culture > there are indeed practices that are demeaning, and cause a lot of > hardship for women. > How do we attend to this. > > Salani ngoxolo > The JJ > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: lindiwe nkutha > To: research ; > Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 10:59 AM > Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > > > > Hi again > > > > Interestingly as we talk about culture we begin to challaenge our > > own beliefs on what constitutes culture as well as how we understand > > the workings of it. Critical to this realisation is our > > understanding and appreciation of how culture is passed on from > > generation to generation, entrenching positions of indivduals and > > setting precedents that future genarations will follow often times > > unquestioned. > > > > Bakari raises properly the predicament of chicken and egg where > > culture is concerned, and so we ask, in the formation of society and > > the negotiation > of > > indivual identities which takes more precedent, the indivual make up > > of members of communities or the culture into which they are born? > > And this > is > > the real quanandram! > > > > If we agree that culture exists for amongst other reasons as a > > tempalte on which our own indivual identities are formed, we agree > > also that gender roles are difined in culture; the man as hunter, > > gatherer and aggressor > and > > woman as surbesvient receipient of caring, nurtiring etc etc are > entrenched > > also in culture (and not just African cultures, just about all > > cultures in fact). So that we base our understanding of the > > situation in Swaziland on this premise, and begin to realise that > > from generation to generation, > women > > in Swaziland would gather for the reed dance, half naked or almost > entirely > > completely naked as Bakari says, is no co-incidence, it is done > > because it is a practice that fore ancestors engaged in as part of > > their cultural expression ( to what end now, is what we have to > > grapple with) . > > > > As a by the way as on my way to my point, I need to say, Swazi > > people and in fact most cultures in Southern Africa did not wear > > anything much before we were introduced to a western way of > > dressing...part of our colonisation...essentially "nudity" was for > > us never a tabooo. The comment on nudity reflects how the western > > way of being have influenced how we see ourselves. > > > > Having said that and getting back on course to my point, I need to > > repeat what I said yesterday, which Columbus picked up on also, that > > "customs and culture can be used to further gains of individuals". > > The genesis of the reed dance a Swazi friend informs me, was for > > the Queen mother, never a parade for the king to choose his wives. > > It was for the queen mother to choose for herself maidens that would > > help her in her homestead . The > "king" > > has now appropriated this tradition for himself and has turned it > > into a peep show for himself (re-entrenching women's positions as > > objects of gaze...for the titilation of his own self). Is it then > > the practice itself that is wrong or is the "reason" for its > > continuance that is oppressive? > and > > this is the point of this discussion I mantain. Bakari says women in > > Swaziland ecxept for my namesake Dlamini agree with the culture and > customs. > > This statement is not entirely wrong, because if they did not no > > woman would send their daughters to the reed dance, and as > > westernised as we > have > > become mothers in Swaziland would ensure that if their daughters > > went they were fully clothed and so on and so on. > > > > But why do women continue to send their children? Because women are > > in > most > > cases the custodians of culture, and if we all agree that culture in > > the wrong hands can be oppressive we begin to appreciate how women > > remaining oblivious to their oppression can serve the interests of > > those who seek to keep them oppressed. And right here is where I > > agree fully with Bakari, knowldge is power! Knowledge and > > information on the basis of which change can be negotiated both at > > an individual and community level has been > witheld > > for far too long from women. Unless and until women conscientize one > another > > or are conscientized to a different reality, such abuses as we see > > in Swaziland will continue. Because culture is not static, and is > > ever changing, what will begin to happen is that together, as women > > and men we will begin to build a new culture that defines aptly who > > we want to be. Unless that happens (not only in Swaziland) but the > > world over women will appear and in fact may just continue to > > collude in their own oppression. > > > > Oh dear I'm afraid I have gone on and on...apologies Alice for the > > lenght > of > > this, but I guess what I was trying to say in a very round about > > way is > (i) > > culture is not static and is capable of being changed by individuals > > (ii) women need to be empowred to begin to see the world differently > > so they contribute meaningfully to processses that shape their > > lives, including > the > > shaping of culture. > > > > Until next time > > > > Lindiwe Nkutha > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "bakari machumu" > > To: "lindiwe nkutha" ; "research" > > ; > > Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 6:02 PM > > Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > > > > > > > Hi to all, > > > This is kind of a tricky situation where one get > > > confused on a situation like a chick and egg, what > > > comes first. Can't demacate clearly that, from this > > > point on, human rights begins. I think if we are to go > > > on with this culture, custom and tradition thing, then > > > it should be under equal applications for both Men and Women. But > > > do women as women know their right in Swaziland, i mean with the > > > exception of Lindiwe Dlaminimost Swazi women, (its my guess i > > > stand to be > > > corrected) agrees with the culture, customs tradition thing > > > todate. I mean, i can't imagine them continuing parading with > > > their upper bodies and most of the under part in such neckedness, > > > that by itself keeps their minds in it.To me that, consititutes > > > negative cultural practices Now, to solve this thing, i believe on > > > agressive, consistent awareness creation.How? that is the question > > > > > > Bakari > > > Dar es Salaam > > > > > > > > > > > > --- lindiwe nkutha wrote: > > > > Hi to all > > > > > > > > Its an interesting topic isn't it'? the convergence > > > > of human rights and custom/ culture etc. Ideally > > > > these should not be mutually exclusive, me thinks. I think also > > > > that in particular, southern African customs that espouse or > > > > purport to espouse the principle of Ubuntu should not at all > > > > have a problem with human rights. (but then again there are a > > > > lot of things I think that are not necessarily fact). My > > > > rationale is if the foundation of the concept of ubuntu which > > > > is said to recognise (albeit > > > > philosophically) that "I am because you are" is our point of > > > > departure then who I am is intrinsically linked to who you are. > > > > If you are free, so am I free, if you are oppressed, so am I > > > > oppressed, and so on and so on. > > > > > > > > But because society loves an "other", and > > > > patriarchy has worked wonders in "securing women's positions as > > > > others", patriarchy in a heavy disguise as culture has always > > > > been used as the banner under which abuses of human rights are > > > > perpetuated. So that the lines were blurred and everytime we > > > > said "I am because you are" and we were speaking as men, it > > > > almost felt natural, cultural, in line with dated customs to > > > > exclude women. In this context the speaking ""I am...."' is > > > > under patriarchy, not considered the speaking female, it is > > > > always the"speaking male and this gets termed culturally > > > > acceptable practise, but it is not. > > > > > > > > If we move form the ""ubuntu" premise, we begin to > > > > see that the marginalisation and subjugation of > > > > women is against the principle said to ground our culture. If we > > > > accept, and perhaps this is one aspect in our "evolution - > > > > culturally" that we left behind, the acceptance that the > > > > speaking "I am..." is both male and female, then within culture > > > > we begin to see that some of the things that get justified as > > > > culture are in fact not cultural, but are patriarchal practices > > > > dressed as culture. > > > > > > > > The king says he will not turn away from his > > > > cultural practices no matter what! Selectively so, > > > > he sticks to his cultural practices when it suits > > > > him, because there are benefits for him. Which is another thing > > > > about culture that is worth mentioning. More times than not the > > > > most vocal voices on the adoption of culture are those that > > > > have a vested interest in the practice at hand. An > > > > uncle who needs to "cleanse a widow" will probably > > > > be the loudest about upholding culture, even though > > > > they may be silent about other aspects of that same culture. My > > > > point being that culture can be used to advance or secure people's > > > > positions. > > > > > > > > As I sign off, I need to make it clear that I do not think that > > > > culture is all bad. No in fact I appreciate the critical > > > > position that particularly those in countries that were > > > > previously colonised are grappling with. A project of recovery > > > > of that which we were before our culture was tempered with, > > > > balanced against the reality of the now and who we define > > > > ourselves as presently as well as the challenge of self > > > > definition into the future of who we want to be. And we sit in > > > > a challenging position. The true test for all of us though (me > > > > thinks) in assessing what is acceptable as culture > > > > and what is not acceptable is whether or not the > > > > precise in any way takes away from an individual > > > > (and in turn the collective...community ...based on > > > > Ubuntu) > > > > ability to enjoy to its full extent the experience > > > > of being human. > > > > > > > > Until later > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: research > > > > To: egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > > > > Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 9:47 AM > > > > Subject: [Egemtraining] This week's discussion > > > > topic: Lets Talk!!! > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear All > > > > > > > > I am sure most of you have been itching to receive the first > > > > discussion topic and are ready to roll!!! I have been keenly > > > > waiting to start as weel. Below is the discussion topic and the > > > > question at the end of the piece. Please remember not to make > > > > your contribution too long. Just comment as briefly as possible > > > > to give others a chance to also share their opinions. Also > > > > remember to "reply to all" so that you do not share your opinion > > > > just with me but with all in the network. Happy reading and > > > > looking forward to hearing your opinions!!! > > > > > > > > > > > > Where does culture start and stop, and individual rights > > > > begin? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am sure most of us are aware of the > > > > controversial ongoing court case in Swaziland > > > > between a mother (Lindiwe Dlamini) and the King (his > > > > aides) concerning the abduction of an > > > > 18-year-old-child (Zena) Mahlangu for "royal > > > > duties". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For those who have not been following the case, > > > > the King (who is being sued through his aides, is alleged to > > > > have abducted the child from school without her mother's > > > > knowledge and consent. Lindiwe wants her child to be returned to > > > > her custody and the King has been arguing that the child is > > > > being kept at the Royal Guest House to be prepared to be > > > > the King's 10th wife. The King was quoted as saying > > > > at a press conference, "The whole issue has been > > > > blown out of proportion by those who took advantage > > > > of trying to destroy our customs and traditions". > > > > People may say whatever they want to sy but I vow to > > > > stick to our traditions, no matter what the times > > > > are. I can be blamed left and right, but the fact of > > > > the matter is that it is our culture that I should > > > > marry many wives as I can. I cannot allow myself to > > > > be forced to follow Western culture". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The controversy is generally seen as a "clash > > > > between customs and modernity". According to custom, Mswati may > > > > choose a new wife each year from among the thousands of virgins > > > > who attend the annual reed dance". Ironically Mswati last year > > > > revived a traditional ban on sex with underage girls to combat > > > > HIV/AIDS. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > After protests for the abduction of Zena and two other girls, > > > > the King fined himself a cow for breaking his own royal decree. > > > > (BBC News). He was also quoted as saying that he was prepared to > > > > pay cows as fines for selecting the three girls. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Zena's mother is challenging the alleged > > > > traditional grabbing of her daughter on the grounds that she was > > > > not consulted, did not consent and her child has been taken out > > > > of school and therefore was abducted. The King's courtiers > > > > (aides) have been arguing that the girl was not abducted but > > > > went willingly. "Everything was arranged between the King > > > > and the girl and our job was just to pick her at the > > > > agreed spot. No force was applied". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Human rights activists have been arguing that "traditionalists > > > > should stop "raping" girls in the name of culture, while royals > > > > have been insisting that Mswati's selection of Zena to be his > > > > bride is a traditional issue that must be resolved through > > > > Swazi customs and culture. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gender and human rights activists have noted that Zena is a > > > > minor child (18 years) and the abduction is a criminal offence > > > > in that it violates > > > > > > > > 1) Lindiwe Dlamini's rights to custody and guardianship over > > > > her minor child and also that; > > > > > > > > 2) Zena's rights to liberty, freedom of movement, education, > > > > choice of marriage partner, right to be a child and bodily > > > > integrity. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Most of us are, I am sure, aware that Swaziland is signatory > > > > to the SADC Declaration on Gender and Development which commits > > > > it in article (vii) to, among other things, protecting the human > > > > rights of women and children, which raises a number of > > > > concerns regarding this case. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Question for Discussion > > > > > > > > > > > > 1) Where should culture, custom and tradition > > > > stop and individual human rights begin, to ensure > > > > the > > > === message truncated === > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > Everything you'll ever need on one web page > > > from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts > > > http://uk.my.yahoo.com > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Egemtraining mailing list > > > Egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > > > http://lists.sn.apc.org/mailman/listinfo/egemtraining > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Egemtraining mailing list > > Egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > > http://lists.sn.apc.org/mailman/listinfo/egemtraining > > > > _______________________________________________ > Egemtraining mailing list > Egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > http://lists.sn.apc.org/mailman/listinfo/egemtraining > _______________________________________________ > Egemtraining mailing list > Egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > http://lists.sn.apc.org/mailman/listinfo/egemtraining > From wlsales at ilesotho.com Tue Nov 19 17:21:57 2002 From: wlsales at ilesotho.com (wlsales) Date: Tue Feb 27 14:10:57 2007 Subject: [Egemtraining] Lets talk!! References: <010401c28a53$e70aab70$0e00a8c0@ALICEK> <023201c28a59$5dbfd290$b300aac0@Barbara> Message-ID: <001c01c28fdf$7c8a1ba0$0201a8c0@keiso> Dear Alice, We were away the whole of last week, I11- 17th November. However I received your initial letter dated 8th November not the course outline. I am interested in joining in but I do not know the rules. However I received all the mail and I am in undated and would like to join in the discussions! Good work please get to me soonest Keiso ----- Original Message ----- From: Barbara Lopi To: research ; egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 4:39 PM Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Lets talk!! Sorry Alice it was a heavy day. YES i received the course outline. B ----- Original Message ----- From: research To: egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 4:00 PM Subject: [Egemtraining] Lets talk!! Hie Guys Many of you are not responding to my communication. Are you receiving my messages? I have sent the course outline this morning and only a few people have confirmed that they have received it. What about other colleagues? Lets talk!!!! Can you please reply TO ALL and share your thoughts about the course outline and the ground rules, so we have evrything set and agreed this week and next week we start on the course content. It will be difficult for me to know if we are all connected if soem are keeping quite. Hello Swaziland, Tanzania, Lesotho, NY: do you have the course outline!! we havent heard from you as yet!! talk to us guys, we need to know whether you are on-line! Just remember to Reply to all so that we all get your communication and know you are online!!! Hope to hear from more of you soon! Happy Tuesday Alice Kwaramba -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.sn.apc.org/pipermail/egemtraining/attachments/20021119/f66e6bca/attachment.html From motebelet at law.wits.ac.za Tue Nov 19 17:37:44 2002 From: motebelet at law.wits.ac.za (Ms Teboho Motebele) Date: Tue Feb 27 14:10:57 2007 Subject: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity References: <51E0CF9C2CF499478C33F3D4FFD3763097BEC2@exchange.irex.org> Message-ID: <000c01c28fe1$9ae04dc0$83228d92@wits.ac.za> Hi to you all, Just thought I should add my 2c worth, having read all your interesting comments. I agree with Maggie that the concept of "human rights" should not be regarded as being of western origin/ influence. If we understand what human rights are i.e.that they are rights which are inalienable and apply to all human beings, because they ARE human beings, there could be no doubt that the concept of human rights should enjoy universal support. The desire to be treat my fellow human being the way I want to be treated is a fundamental principle I live by. Having said that, I do not believe that we should allow ourselves to be influenced by the west in determining what we regard as being right for us, not only as Africans but as African women. I also believe that we should not give too much credit to the Western world for having alerted us to "what is wrong " with our cultural practices. What works for the west won't necessarily work for us. It is for us to determine for ourselves what is or is not acceptable to us. It is my view and I am in agreement with Lindiwe here, that culture is not static. Culture merely represents (or should represent) public opinion at a particular point in time. It can be moulded to serve the needs of us all. By not voicing out outrage at the behaviour of the King, the women in Swaziland are sending out a wrong message...i.e. that culture as interpreted by the king, is acceptable to them. It would appear ( and I am open to correction) that women in Swaziland regard it as an honour to have one's child chosen by the king as a wife...even if she will be the 11th wife. Surely if they objected to this practice, they would not be sending their daughters to this "reed" dance. Why is that???Can we assume that these woman don't know any better? I am probably not articulating this clearly enough.Be that as it may, I hope that someone will be able to follow my train of thought. bye for now Teboho ----- Original Message ----- From: "Maggie McDonough" To: "'Jennifer Joni'" ; "research" ; Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 4:37 PM Subject: RE: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > Hello again, > > I think Jennifer raised some interesting points here, but there is one point > in particular that I would like to address -- that is, the concept of human > rights being determined by western/colonial values. I actually do not > accept that human rights is a uniquely western concept. Human rights have > been invoked by people throughout the world, both historically and > contemporaneously. Human rights formed the basis of the Non-cooperation > Movement AGAINST the British in colonial India. Human rights have formed > the basis against the authoritarian and military regimes of Europe and > Eurasia. Mass movements (e.g. for gender equality, environmental > protection, etc) have gained untold strength and sustenance from human > rights issues. The list can go on. > > Anyway, just wanted to add my two cents on this point. > > Maggie > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jennifer Joni [mailto:jonij@law.wits.ac.za] > Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 6:56 AM > To: research; egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > > > maqabane > > Interesting subject, culture and people wanting to use culture to do their > horrendous, violent deeds. There are a few issues that i always grapple > with when confronted with these questions, which I honestly believe go to > the root of who we are; I mean those of us who are expected to respect our > culture. At what point does culture stop being that which we think should be > practiced? Is this determined by the western values that have been > instilled in us since colonialism? Do we (especially in South Africa) say > that we now have a Constitution which says that conduct that is in not in > line with the vales in the Constitution, is unconstitutional. Those values > being human dignity, equality and blah blah blah. The reason I am raising > these concerns emanates from a statement made at the Racism Conference, > where one woman stated that we should be cautious of attempts by the other > -who is insistent and is forcing the people to abrogate their culture > because they think it is oppressive. The yardstick being the western > culture. I am not condoning what Moswati is doing but I would like to know > what processes need to be put in place to challenge abusive, insulting > practices. Do we for example take stock of all those practices that we think > perpetuate violence against women? and then decide and agree how we are > going to change them? Who does this for us? In my Xhosa culture there are > indeed practices that are demeaning, and cause a lot of hardship for women. > How do we attend to this. > > Salani ngoxolo > The JJ > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: lindiwe nkutha > To: research ; > Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 10:59 AM > Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > > > > Hi again > > > > Interestingly as we talk about culture we begin to challaenge our own > > beliefs on what constitutes culture as well as how we understand the > > workings of it. Critical to this realisation is our understanding and > > appreciation of how culture is passed on from generation to > > generation, entrenching positions of indivduals and setting precedents > > that future genarations will follow often times unquestioned. > > > > Bakari raises properly the predicament of chicken and egg where > > culture is concerned, and so we ask, in the formation of society and > > the negotiation > of > > indivual identities which takes more precedent, the indivual make up > > of members of communities or the culture into which they are born? And > > this > is > > the real quanandram! > > > > If we agree that culture exists for amongst other reasons as a > > tempalte on which our own indivual identities are formed, we agree > > also that gender roles are difined in culture; the man as hunter, > > gatherer and aggressor > and > > woman as surbesvient receipient of caring, nurtiring etc etc are > entrenched > > also in culture (and not just African cultures, just about all > > cultures in fact). So that we base our understanding of the situation > > in Swaziland on this premise, and begin to realise that from > > generation to generation, > women > > in Swaziland would gather for the reed dance, half naked or almost > entirely > > completely naked as Bakari says, is no co-incidence, it is done > > because it is a practice that fore ancestors engaged in as part of > > their cultural expression ( to what end now, is what we have to > > grapple with) . > > > > As a by the way as on my way to my point, I need to say, Swazi people > > and in fact most cultures in Southern Africa did not wear anything > > much before we were introduced to a western way of dressing...part of > > our colonisation...essentially "nudity" was for us never a tabooo. The > > comment on nudity reflects how the western way of being have > > influenced how we see ourselves. > > > > Having said that and getting back on course to my point, I need to > > repeat what I said yesterday, which Columbus picked up on also, that > > "customs and culture can be used to further gains of individuals". The > > genesis of the reed dance a Swazi friend informs me, was for the > > Queen mother, never a parade for the king to choose his wives. It was > > for the queen mother to choose for herself maidens that would help her > > in her homestead . The > "king" > > has now appropriated this tradition for himself and has turned it into > > a peep show for himself (re-entrenching women's positions as objects > > of gaze...for the titilation of his own self). Is it then the practice > > itself that is wrong or is the "reason" for its continuance that is > > oppressive? > and > > this is the point of this discussion I mantain. Bakari says women in > > Swaziland ecxept for my namesake Dlamini agree with the culture and > customs. > > This statement is not entirely wrong, because if they did not no > > woman would send their daughters to the reed dance, and as > > westernised as we > have > > become mothers in Swaziland would ensure that if their daughters went > > they were fully clothed and so on and so on. > > > > But why do women continue to send their children? Because women are in > most > > cases the custodians of culture, and if we all agree that culture in > > the wrong hands can be oppressive we begin to appreciate how women > > remaining oblivious to their oppression can serve the interests of > > those who seek to keep them oppressed. And right here is where I agree > > fully with Bakari, knowldge is power! Knowledge and information on the > > basis of which change can be negotiated both at an individual and > > community level has been > witheld > > for far too long from women. Unless and until women conscientize one > another > > or are conscientized to a different reality, such abuses as we see in > > Swaziland will continue. Because culture is not static, and is ever > > changing, what will begin to happen is that together, as women and > > men we will begin to build a new culture that defines aptly who we > > want to be. Unless that happens (not only in Swaziland) but the world > > over women will appear and in fact may just continue to collude in > > their own oppression. > > > > Oh dear I'm afraid I have gone on and on...apologies Alice for the > > lenght > of > > this, but I guess what I was trying to say in a very round about way > > is > (i) > > culture is not static and is capable of being changed by individuals > > (ii) women need to be empowred to begin to see the world differently > > so they contribute meaningfully to processses that shape their lives, > > including > the > > shaping of culture. > > > > Until next time > > > > Lindiwe Nkutha > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "bakari machumu" > > To: "lindiwe nkutha" ; "research" > > ; > > Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 6:02 PM > > Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > > > > > > > Hi to all, > > > This is kind of a tricky situation where one get > > > confused on a situation like a chick and egg, what > > > comes first. Can't demacate clearly that, from this > > > point on, human rights begins. I think if we are to go > > > on with this culture, custom and tradition thing, then > > > it should be under equal applications for both Men and Women. But do > > > women as women know their right in Swaziland, i mean with the > > > exception of Lindiwe Dlaminimost Swazi women, (its my guess i stand > > > to be > > > corrected) agrees with the culture, customs tradition > > > thing todate. I mean, i can't imagine them continuing parading with > > > their upper bodies and most of the under part in such neckedness, > > > that by itself keeps their minds in it.To me that, consititutes > > > negative cultural practices Now, to solve this thing, i believe on > > > agressive, consistent awareness creation.How? that is > > > the question > > > > > > Bakari > > > Dar es Salaam > > > > > > > > > > > > --- lindiwe nkutha wrote: > > > > Hi to all > > > > > > > > Its an interesting topic isn't it'? the convergence > > > > of human rights and custom/ culture etc. Ideally > > > > these should not be mutually exclusive, me thinks. I think also > > > > that in particular, southern African customs that espouse or > > > > purport to espouse the principle of Ubuntu should not at all have > > > > a problem with human rights. (but then again there are a lot > > > > of things I think that are not necessarily fact). My > > > > rationale is if the foundation of the concept of > > > > ubuntu which is said to recognise (albeit > > > > philosophically) that "I am because you are" is our > > > > point of departure then who I am is intrinsically > > > > linked to who you are. If you are free, so am I > > > > free, if you are oppressed, so am I oppressed, and > > > > so on and so on. > > > > > > > > But because society loves an "other", and > > > > patriarchy has worked wonders in "securing women's positions as > > > > others", patriarchy in a heavy disguise as culture has always been > > > > used as the banner under which abuses of human rights are > > > > perpetuated. So that the lines were blurred and everytime we said > > > > "I am because you are" and we were speaking as men, > > > > it almost felt natural, cultural, in line with dated > > > > customs to exclude women. In this context the > > > > speaking ""I am...."' is under patriarchy, not > > > > considered the speaking female, it is always > > > > the"speaking male and this gets termed culturally > > > > acceptable practise, but it is not. > > > > > > > > If we move form the ""ubuntu" premise, we begin to > > > > see that the marginalisation and subjugation of > > > > women is against the principle said to ground our culture. If we > > > > accept, and perhaps this is one aspect in our "evolution - > > > > culturally" that we left behind, the acceptance that the speaking > > > > "I am..." is both male and female, then within culture we > > > > begin to see that some of the things that get > > > > justified as culture are in fact not cultural, but > > > > are patriarchal practices dressed as culture. > > > > > > > > The king says he will not turn away from his > > > > cultural practices no matter what! Selectively so, > > > > he sticks to his cultural practices when it suits > > > > him, because there are benefits for him. Which is > > > > another thing about culture that is worth > > > > mentioning. More times than not the most vocal > > > > voices on the adoption of culture are those that > > > > have a vested interest in the practice at hand. An > > > > uncle who needs to "cleanse a widow" will probably > > > > be the loudest about upholding culture, even though > > > > they may be silent about other aspects of that same culture. My > > > > point being that culture can be used to advance or secure people's > > > > positions. > > > > > > > > As I sign off, I need to make it clear that I do not think that > > > > culture is all bad. No in fact I appreciate the critical position > > > > that particularly those in countries that were previously > > > > colonised are grappling with. A project of recovery of that > > > > which we were before our culture was tempered with, > > > > balanced against the reality of the now and who we > > > > define ourselves as presently as well as the > > > > challenge of self definition into the future of who > > > > we want to be. And we sit in a challenging > > > > position. The true test for all of us though (me > > > > thinks) in assessing what is acceptable as culture > > > > and what is not acceptable is whether or not the > > > > precise in any way takes away from an individual > > > > (and in turn the collective...community ...based on > > > > Ubuntu) > > > > ability to enjoy to its full extent the experience > > > > of being human. > > > > > > > > Until later > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: research > > > > To: egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > > > > Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 9:47 AM > > > > Subject: [Egemtraining] This week's discussion > > > > topic: Lets Talk!!! > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear All > > > > > > > > I am sure most of you have been itching to receive > > > > the first discussion topic and are ready to roll!!! > > > > I have been keenly waiting to start as weel. Below > > > > is the discussion topic and the question at the end > > > > of the piece. Please remember not to make your contribution too > > > > long. Just comment as briefly as possible to give others a chance > > > > to also share their opinions. Also remember to "reply to all" so > > > > that you do not share your opinion just with me but with > > > > all in the network. Happy reading and looking > > > > forward to hearing your opinions!!! > > > > > > > > > > > > Where does culture start and stop, and individual rights begin? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am sure most of us are aware of the > > > > controversial ongoing court case in Swaziland > > > > between a mother (Lindiwe Dlamini) and the King (his > > > > aides) concerning the abduction of an > > > > 18-year-old-child (Zena) Mahlangu for "royal > > > > duties". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For those who have not been following the case, > > > > the King (who is being sued through his aides, is > > > > alleged to have abducted the child from school > > > > without her mother's knowledge and consent. Lindiwe > > > > wants her child to be returned to her custody and > > > > the King has been arguing that the child is being > > > > kept at the Royal Guest House to be prepared to be > > > > the King's 10th wife. The King was quoted as saying > > > > at a press conference, "The whole issue has been > > > > blown out of proportion by those who took advantage > > > > of trying to destroy our customs and traditions". > > > > People may say whatever they want to sy but I vow to > > > > stick to our traditions, no matter what the times > > > > are. I can be blamed left and right, but the fact of > > > > the matter is that it is our culture that I should > > > > marry many wives as I can. I cannot allow myself to > > > > be forced to follow Western culture". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The controversy is generally seen as a "clash > > > > between customs and modernity". According to custom, > > > > Mswati may choose a new wife each year from among > > > > the thousands of virgins who attend the annual reed > > > > dance". Ironically Mswati last year revived a > > > > traditional ban on sex with underage girls to combat > > > > HIV/AIDS. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > After protests for the abduction of Zena and two > > > > other girls, the King fined himself a cow for > > > > breaking his own royal decree. (BBC News). He was > > > > also quoted as saying that he was prepared to pay > > > > cows as fines for selecting the three girls. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Zena's mother is challenging the alleged > > > > traditional grabbing of her daughter on the grounds > > > > that she was not consulted, did not consent and her > > > > child has been taken out of school and therefore was > > > > abducted. The King's courtiers (aides) have been > > > > arguing that the girl was not abducted but went > > > > willingly. "Everything was arranged between the King > > > > and the girl and our job was just to pick her at the > > > > agreed spot. No force was applied". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Human rights activists have been arguing that > > > > "traditionalists should stop "raping" girls in the > > > > name of culture, while royals have been insisting > > > > that Mswati's selection of Zena to be his bride is a > > > > traditional issue that must be resolved through > > > > Swazi customs and culture. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gender and human rights activists have noted that > > > > Zena is a minor child (18 years) and the abduction > > > > is a criminal offence in that it violates > > > > > > > > 1) Lindiwe Dlamini's rights to custody and > > > > guardianship over her minor child and also that; > > > > > > > > 2) Zena's rights to liberty, freedom of movement, > > > > education, choice of marriage partner, right to be a > > > > child and bodily integrity. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Most of us are, I am sure, aware that Swaziland is > > > > signatory to the SADC Declaration on Gender and > > > > Development which commits it in article (vii) to, > > > > among other things, protecting the human rights of > > > > women and children, which raises a number of > > > > concerns regarding this case. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Question for Discussion > > > > > > > > > > > > 1) Where should culture, custom and tradition > > > > stop and individual human rights begin, to ensure > > > > the > > > === message truncated === > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > Everything you'll ever need on one web page > > > from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts > > > http://uk.my.yahoo.com > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Egemtraining mailing list > > > Egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > > > http://lists.sn.apc.org/mailman/listinfo/egemtraining > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Egemtraining mailing list > > Egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > > http://lists.sn.apc.org/mailman/listinfo/egemtraining > > > > _______________________________________________ > Egemtraining mailing list > Egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > http://lists.sn.apc.org/mailman/listinfo/egemtraining > _______________________________________________ > Egemtraining mailing list > Egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > http://lists.sn.apc.org/mailman/listinfo/egemtraining > From motebelet at law.wits.ac.za Tue Nov 19 17:38:01 2002 From: motebelet at law.wits.ac.za (Ms Teboho Motebele) Date: Tue Feb 27 14:10:57 2007 Subject: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity References: <51E0CF9C2CF499478C33F3D4FFD3763097BEC2@exchange.irex.org> Message-ID: <000d01c28fe1$a517a900$83228d92@wits.ac.za> Hi to you all, Just thought I should add my 2c worth, having read all your interesting comments. I agree with Maggie that the concept of "human rights" should not be regarded as being of western origin/ influence. If we understand what human rights are i.e.that they are rights which are inalienable and apply to all human beings, because they ARE human beings, there could be no doubt that the concept of human rights should enjoy universal support. The desire to be treat my fellow human being the way I want to be treated is a fundamental principle I live by. Having said that, I do not believe that we should allow ourselves to be influenced by the west in determining what we regard as being right for us, not only as Africans but as African women. I also believe that we should not give too much credit to the Western world for having alerted us to "what is wrong " with our cultural practices. What works for the west won't necessarily work for us. It is for us to determine for ourselves what is or is not acceptable to us. It is my view and I am in agreement with Lindiwe here, that culture is not static. Culture merely represents (or should represent) public opinion at a particular point in time. It can be moulded to serve the needs of us all. By not voicing out outrage at the behaviour of the King, the women in Swaziland are sending out a wrong message...i.e. that culture as interpreted by the king, is acceptable to them. It would appear ( and I am open to correction) that women in Swaziland regard it as an honour to have one's child chosen by the king as a wife...even if she will be the 11th wife. Surely if they objected to this practice, they would not be sending their daughters to this "reed" dance. Why is that???Can we assume that these woman don't know any better? I am probably not articulating this clearly enough.Be that as it may, I hope that someone will be able to follow my train of thought. bye for now Teboho ----- Original Message ----- From: "Maggie McDonough" To: "'Jennifer Joni'" ; "research" ; Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 4:37 PM Subject: RE: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > Hello again, > > I think Jennifer raised some interesting points here, but there is one point > in particular that I would like to address -- that is, the concept of human > rights being determined by western/colonial values. I actually do not > accept that human rights is a uniquely western concept. Human rights have > been invoked by people throughout the world, both historically and > contemporaneously. Human rights formed the basis of the Non-cooperation > Movement AGAINST the British in colonial India. Human rights have formed > the basis against the authoritarian and military regimes of Europe and > Eurasia. Mass movements (e.g. for gender equality, environmental > protection, etc) have gained untold strength and sustenance from human > rights issues. The list can go on. > > Anyway, just wanted to add my two cents on this point. > > Maggie > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jennifer Joni [mailto:jonij@law.wits.ac.za] > Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 6:56 AM > To: research; egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > > > maqabane > > Interesting subject, culture and people wanting to use culture to do their > horrendous, violent deeds. There are a few issues that i always grapple > with when confronted with these questions, which I honestly believe go to > the root of who we are; I mean those of us who are expected to respect our > culture. At what point does culture stop being that which we think should be > practiced? Is this determined by the western values that have been > instilled in us since colonialism? Do we (especially in South Africa) say > that we now have a Constitution which says that conduct that is in not in > line with the vales in the Constitution, is unconstitutional. Those values > being human dignity, equality and blah blah blah. The reason I am raising > these concerns emanates from a statement made at the Racism Conference, > where one woman stated that we should be cautious of attempts by the other > -who is insistent and is forcing the people to abrogate their culture > because they think it is oppressive. The yardstick being the western > culture. I am not condoning what Moswati is doing but I would like to know > what processes need to be put in place to challenge abusive, insulting > practices. Do we for example take stock of all those practices that we think > perpetuate violence against women? and then decide and agree how we are > going to change them? Who does this for us? In my Xhosa culture there are > indeed practices that are demeaning, and cause a lot of hardship for women. > How do we attend to this. > > Salani ngoxolo > The JJ > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: lindiwe nkutha > To: research ; > Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 10:59 AM > Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > > > > Hi again > > > > Interestingly as we talk about culture we begin to challaenge our own > > beliefs on what constitutes culture as well as how we understand the > > workings of it. Critical to this realisation is our understanding and > > appreciation of how culture is passed on from generation to > > generation, entrenching positions of indivduals and setting precedents > > that future genarations will follow often times unquestioned. > > > > Bakari raises properly the predicament of chicken and egg where > > culture is concerned, and so we ask, in the formation of society and > > the negotiation > of > > indivual identities which takes more precedent, the indivual make up > > of members of communities or the culture into which they are born? And > > this > is > > the real quanandram! > > > > If we agree that culture exists for amongst other reasons as a > > tempalte on which our own indivual identities are formed, we agree > > also that gender roles are difined in culture; the man as hunter, > > gatherer and aggressor > and > > woman as surbesvient receipient of caring, nurtiring etc etc are > entrenched > > also in culture (and not just African cultures, just about all > > cultures in fact). So that we base our understanding of the situation > > in Swaziland on this premise, and begin to realise that from > > generation to generation, > women > > in Swaziland would gather for the reed dance, half naked or almost > entirely > > completely naked as Bakari says, is no co-incidence, it is done > > because it is a practice that fore ancestors engaged in as part of > > their cultural expression ( to what end now, is what we have to > > grapple with) . > > > > As a by the way as on my way to my point, I need to say, Swazi people > > and in fact most cultures in Southern Africa did not wear anything > > much before we were introduced to a western way of dressing...part of > > our colonisation...essentially "nudity" was for us never a tabooo. The > > comment on nudity reflects how the western way of being have > > influenced how we see ourselves. > > > > Having said that and getting back on course to my point, I need to > > repeat what I said yesterday, which Columbus picked up on also, that > > "customs and culture can be used to further gains of individuals". The > > genesis of the reed dance a Swazi friend informs me, was for the > > Queen mother, never a parade for the king to choose his wives. It was > > for the queen mother to choose for herself maidens that would help her > > in her homestead . The > "king" > > has now appropriated this tradition for himself and has turned it into > > a peep show for himself (re-entrenching women's positions as objects > > of gaze...for the titilation of his own self). Is it then the practice > > itself that is wrong or is the "reason" for its continuance that is > > oppressive? > and > > this is the point of this discussion I mantain. Bakari says women in > > Swaziland ecxept for my namesake Dlamini agree with the culture and > customs. > > This statement is not entirely wrong, because if they did not no > > woman would send their daughters to the reed dance, and as > > westernised as we > have > > become mothers in Swaziland would ensure that if their daughters went > > they were fully clothed and so on and so on. > > > > But why do women continue to send their children? Because women are in > most > > cases the custodians of culture, and if we all agree that culture in > > the wrong hands can be oppressive we begin to appreciate how women > > remaining oblivious to their oppression can serve the interests of > > those who seek to keep them oppressed. And right here is where I agree > > fully with Bakari, knowldge is power! Knowledge and information on the > > basis of which change can be negotiated both at an individual and > > community level has been > witheld > > for far too long from women. Unless and until women conscientize one > another > > or are conscientized to a different reality, such abuses as we see in > > Swaziland will continue. Because culture is not static, and is ever > > changing, what will begin to happen is that together, as women and > > men we will begin to build a new culture that defines aptly who we > > want to be. Unless that happens (not only in Swaziland) but the world > > over women will appear and in fact may just continue to collude in > > their own oppression. > > > > Oh dear I'm afraid I have gone on and on...apologies Alice for the > > lenght > of > > this, but I guess what I was trying to say in a very round about way > > is > (i) > > culture is not static and is capable of being changed by individuals > > (ii) women need to be empowred to begin to see the world differently > > so they contribute meaningfully to processses that shape their lives, > > including > the > > shaping of culture. > > > > Until next time > > > > Lindiwe Nkutha > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "bakari machumu" > > To: "lindiwe nkutha" ; "research" > > ; > > Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 6:02 PM > > Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > > > > > > > Hi to all, > > > This is kind of a tricky situation where one get > > > confused on a situation like a chick and egg, what > > > comes first. Can't demacate clearly that, from this > > > point on, human rights begins. I think if we are to go > > > on with this culture, custom and tradition thing, then > > > it should be under equal applications for both Men and Women. But do > > > women as women know their right in Swaziland, i mean with the > > > exception of Lindiwe Dlaminimost Swazi women, (its my guess i stand > > > to be > > > corrected) agrees with the culture, customs tradition > > > thing todate. I mean, i can't imagine them continuing parading with > > > their upper bodies and most of the under part in such neckedness, > > > that by itself keeps their minds in it.To me that, consititutes > > > negative cultural practices Now, to solve this thing, i believe on > > > agressive, consistent awareness creation.How? that is > > > the question > > > > > > Bakari > > > Dar es Salaam > > > > > > > > > > > > --- lindiwe nkutha wrote: > > > > Hi to all > > > > > > > > Its an interesting topic isn't it'? the convergence > > > > of human rights and custom/ culture etc. Ideally > > > > these should not be mutually exclusive, me thinks. I think also > > > > that in particular, southern African customs that espouse or > > > > purport to espouse the principle of Ubuntu should not at all have > > > > a problem with human rights. (but then again there are a lot > > > > of things I think that are not necessarily fact). My > > > > rationale is if the foundation of the concept of > > > > ubuntu which is said to recognise (albeit > > > > philosophically) that "I am because you are" is our > > > > point of departure then who I am is intrinsically > > > > linked to who you are. If you are free, so am I > > > > free, if you are oppressed, so am I oppressed, and > > > > so on and so on. > > > > > > > > But because society loves an "other", and > > > > patriarchy has worked wonders in "securing women's positions as > > > > others", patriarchy in a heavy disguise as culture has always been > > > > used as the banner under which abuses of human rights are > > > > perpetuated. So that the lines were blurred and everytime we said > > > > "I am because you are" and we were speaking as men, > > > > it almost felt natural, cultural, in line with dated > > > > customs to exclude women. In this context the > > > > speaking ""I am...."' is under patriarchy, not > > > > considered the speaking female, it is always > > > > the"speaking male and this gets termed culturally > > > > acceptable practise, but it is not. > > > > > > > > If we move form the ""ubuntu" premise, we begin to > > > > see that the marginalisation and subjugation of > > > > women is against the principle said to ground our culture. If we > > > > accept, and perhaps this is one aspect in our "evolution - > > > > culturally" that we left behind, the acceptance that the speaking > > > > "I am..." is both male and female, then within culture we > > > > begin to see that some of the things that get > > > > justified as culture are in fact not cultural, but > > > > are patriarchal practices dressed as culture. > > > > > > > > The king says he will not turn away from his > > > > cultural practices no matter what! Selectively so, > > > > he sticks to his cultural practices when it suits > > > > him, because there are benefits for him. Which is > > > > another thing about culture that is worth > > > > mentioning. More times than not the most vocal > > > > voices on the adoption of culture are those that > > > > have a vested interest in the practice at hand. An > > > > uncle who needs to "cleanse a widow" will probably > > > > be the loudest about upholding culture, even though > > > > they may be silent about other aspects of that same culture. My > > > > point being that culture can be used to advance or secure people's > > > > positions. > > > > > > > > As I sign off, I need to make it clear that I do not think that > > > > culture is all bad. No in fact I appreciate the critical position > > > > that particularly those in countries that were previously > > > > colonised are grappling with. A project of recovery of that > > > > which we were before our culture was tempered with, > > > > balanced against the reality of the now and who we > > > > define ourselves as presently as well as the > > > > challenge of self definition into the future of who > > > > we want to be. And we sit in a challenging > > > > position. The true test for all of us though (me > > > > thinks) in assessing what is acceptable as culture > > > > and what is not acceptable is whether or not the > > > > precise in any way takes away from an individual > > > > (and in turn the collective...community ...based on > > > > Ubuntu) > > > > ability to enjoy to its full extent the experience > > > > of being human. > > > > > > > > Until later > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: research > > > > To: egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > > > > Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 9:47 AM > > > > Subject: [Egemtraining] This week's discussion > > > > topic: Lets Talk!!! > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear All > > > > > > > > I am sure most of you have been itching to receive > > > > the first discussion topic and are ready to roll!!! > > > > I have been keenly waiting to start as weel. Below > > > > is the discussion topic and the question at the end > > > > of the piece. Please remember not to make your contribution too > > > > long. Just comment as briefly as possible to give others a chance > > > > to also share their opinions. Also remember to "reply to all" so > > > > that you do not share your opinion just with me but with > > > > all in the network. Happy reading and looking > > > > forward to hearing your opinions!!! > > > > > > > > > > > > Where does culture start and stop, and individual rights begin? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am sure most of us are aware of the > > > > controversial ongoing court case in Swaziland > > > > between a mother (Lindiwe Dlamini) and the King (his > > > > aides) concerning the abduction of an > > > > 18-year-old-child (Zena) Mahlangu for "royal > > > > duties". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For those who have not been following the case, > > > > the King (who is being sued through his aides, is > > > > alleged to have abducted the child from school > > > > without her mother's knowledge and consent. Lindiwe > > > > wants her child to be returned to her custody and > > > > the King has been arguing that the child is being > > > > kept at the Royal Guest House to be prepared to be > > > > the King's 10th wife. The King was quoted as saying > > > > at a press conference, "The whole issue has been > > > > blown out of proportion by those who took advantage > > > > of trying to destroy our customs and traditions". > > > > People may say whatever they want to sy but I vow to > > > > stick to our traditions, no matter what the times > > > > are. I can be blamed left and right, but the fact of > > > > the matter is that it is our culture that I should > > > > marry many wives as I can. I cannot allow myself to > > > > be forced to follow Western culture". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The controversy is generally seen as a "clash > > > > between customs and modernity". According to custom, > > > > Mswati may choose a new wife each year from among > > > > the thousands of virgins who attend the annual reed > > > > dance". Ironically Mswati last year revived a > > > > traditional ban on sex with underage girls to combat > > > > HIV/AIDS. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > After protests for the abduction of Zena and two > > > > other girls, the King fined himself a cow for > > > > breaking his own royal decree. (BBC News). He was > > > > also quoted as saying that he was prepared to pay > > > > cows as fines for selecting the three girls. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Zena's mother is challenging the alleged > > > > traditional grabbing of her daughter on the grounds > > > > that she was not consulted, did not consent and her > > > > child has been taken out of school and therefore was > > > > abducted. The King's courtiers (aides) have been > > > > arguing that the girl was not abducted but went > > > > willingly. "Everything was arranged between the King > > > > and the girl and our job was just to pick her at the > > > > agreed spot. No force was applied". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Human rights activists have been arguing that > > > > "traditionalists should stop "raping" girls in the > > > > name of culture, while royals have been insisting > > > > that Mswati's selection of Zena to be his bride is a > > > > traditional issue that must be resolved through > > > > Swazi customs and culture. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gender and human rights activists have noted that > > > > Zena is a minor child (18 years) and the abduction > > > > is a criminal offence in that it violates > > > > > > > > 1) Lindiwe Dlamini's rights to custody and > > > > guardianship over her minor child and also that; > > > > > > > > 2) Zena's rights to liberty, freedom of movement, > > > > education, choice of marriage partner, right to be a > > > > child and bodily integrity. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Most of us are, I am sure, aware that Swaziland is > > > > signatory to the SADC Declaration on Gender and > > > > Development which commits it in article (vii) to, > > > > among other things, protecting the human rights of > > > > women and children, which raises a number of > > > > concerns regarding this case. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Question for Discussion > > > > > > > > > > > > 1) Where should culture, custom and tradition > > > > stop and individual human rights begin, to ensure > > > > the > > > === message truncated === > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > Everything you'll ever need on one web page > > > from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts > > > http://uk.my.yahoo.com > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Egemtraining mailing list > > > Egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > > > http://lists.sn.apc.org/mailman/listinfo/egemtraining > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Egemtraining mailing list > > Egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > > http://lists.sn.apc.org/mailman/listinfo/egemtraining > > > > _______________________________________________ > Egemtraining mailing list > Egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > http://lists.sn.apc.org/mailman/listinfo/egemtraining > _______________________________________________ > Egemtraining mailing list > Egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > http://lists.sn.apc.org/mailman/listinfo/egemtraining > From research at genderlinks.org.za Tue Nov 19 17:04:06 2002 From: research at genderlinks.org.za (research) Date: Tue Feb 27 14:10:57 2007 Subject: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity References: <20021118160225.65103.qmail@web40911.mail.yahoo.com> <005501c28ee0$c72b7e10$0f00a8c0@MOTH> <001c01c28fc2$93f30580$94228d92@wits.ac.za> Message-ID: <00a101c28fdc$e84e0700$0e00a8c0@ALICEK> Dear All Where do I start!! its really getting very interesting and challenging, too!! Thanks so much to all of you who have cooked quite a number of bones of contention!! Bakari's opinion that women seem to enjoy and agree to be subjected to such cultural exploitations; Lindiwe Nkutha's view that yes, to some extent they do BUT lets also look beyond the surface and interrogate WHY they seem to accept something which does not seem to benefit them in any way, raising issues of socialization and culture as passed from generation to generation; Lindiwe Nkonyane (we really have to distinguish the Lindiwes here, otherwise we will get mixed up!!!(smile)) who raised another important issue that the way around it would be to ensure statutory and constitutional guarantees to protect women and children. A proposition made by Maggie, which I think also needs for us to further reflect on is that where culture and custom clashes with individual rights, the course to take should be to apply the basic human rights principles of non-disrimination, non-oppression and fairness and more importantly, Educating women as a priority! Maybe we can reflect a bit more on how for instance legal reforms and constitutional guarantees can turn around the situation, especially bearing in mind that most law makers in the region are indeed men (they are the majority in most Parliaments), and even where laws do exist, there does not seem to be a clear framework and mechanisms to fully implement them. For instance, King Mswati signed both the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, and the SADC Declaration on Gender and Development, both of which oblige him to protect the rights of children. To me, the issue then becomes a matter of reconciling these international instruments with customary and cultural practices, and making sure that there is a legal framework to guarantee the full implementation of the provisions of such instruments. What do others think about this?? Lets continue to talk!!!!!! Alice ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jennifer Joni" To: "research" ; Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 1:55 PM Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > maqabane > > Interesting subject, culture and people wanting to use culture to do their > horrendous, violent deeds. There are a few issues that i always grapple > with when confronted with these questions, which I honestly believe go to > the root of who we are; I mean those of us who are expected to respect our > culture. > At what point does culture stop being that which we think should be > practiced? Is this determined by the western values that have been > instilled in us since colonialism? Do we (especially in South Africa) say > that we now have a Constitution which says that conduct that is in not in > line with the vales in the Constitution, is unconstitutional. Those values > being human dignity, equality and blah blah blah. > The reason I am raising these concerns emanates from a statement made at the > Racism Conference, where one woman stated that we should be cautious of > attempts by the other -who is insistent and is forcing the people to > abrogate their culture because they think it is oppressive. The yardstick > being the western culture. > I am not condoning what Moswati is doing but I would like to know what > processes need to be put in place to challenge abusive, insulting practices. > Do we for example take stock of all those practices that we think perpetuate > violence against women? and then decide and agree how we are going to change > them? Who does this for us? > In my Xhosa culture there are indeed practices that are demeaning, and cause > a lot of hardship for women. How do we attend to this. > > Salani ngoxolo > The JJ > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: lindiwe nkutha > To: research ; > Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 10:59 AM > Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > > > > Hi again > > > > Interestingly as we talk about culture we begin to challaenge our own > > beliefs on what constitutes culture as well as how we understand the > > workings of it. Critical to this realisation is our understanding and > > appreciation of how culture is passed on from generation to generation, > > entrenching positions of indivduals and setting precedents that future > > genarations will follow often times unquestioned. > > > > Bakari raises properly the predicament of chicken and egg where culture is > > concerned, and so we ask, in the formation of society and the negotiation > of > > indivual identities which takes more precedent, the indivual make up of > > members of communities or the culture into which they are born? And this > is > > the real quanandram! > > > > If we agree that culture exists for amongst other reasons as a tempalte on > > which our own indivual identities are formed, we agree also that gender > > roles are difined in culture; the man as hunter, gatherer and aggressor > and > > woman as surbesvient receipient of caring, nurtiring etc etc are > entrenched > > also in culture (and not just African cultures, just about all cultures in > > fact). So that we base our understanding of the situation in Swaziland on > > this premise, and begin to realise that from generation to generation, > women > > in Swaziland would gather for the reed dance, half naked or almost > entirely > > completely naked as Bakari says, is no co-incidence, it is done because it > > is a practice that fore ancestors engaged in as part of their cultural > > expression ( to what end now, is what we have to grapple with) . > > > > As a by the way as on my way to my point, I need to say, Swazi people and > > in fact most cultures in Southern Africa did not wear anything much before > > we were introduced to a western way of dressing...part of our > > colonisation...essentially "nudity" was for us never a tabooo. The comment > > on nudity reflects how the western way of being have influenced how we see > > ourselves. > > > > Having said that and getting back on course to my point, I need to repeat > > what I said yesterday, which Columbus picked up on also, that "customs and > > culture can be used to further gains of individuals". The genesis of the > > reed dance a Swazi friend informs me, was for the Queen mother, never a > > parade for the king to choose his wives. It was for the queen mother to > > choose for herself maidens that would help her in her homestead . The > "king" > > has now appropriated this tradition for himself and has turned it into a > > peep show for himself (re-entrenching women's positions as objects of > > gaze...for the titilation of his own self). Is it then the practice itself > > that is wrong or is the "reason" for its continuance that is oppressive? > and > > this is the point of this discussion I mantain. Bakari says women in > > Swaziland ecxept for my namesake Dlamini agree with the culture and > customs. > > This statement is not entirely wrong, because if they did not no woman > > would send their daughters to the reed dance, and as westernised as we > have > > become mothers in Swaziland would ensure that if their daughters went they > > were fully clothed and so on and so on. > > > > But why do women continue to send their children? Because women are in > most > > cases the custodians of culture, and if we all agree that culture in the > > wrong hands can be oppressive we begin to appreciate how women remaining > > oblivious to their oppression can serve the interests of those who seek to > > keep them oppressed. And right here is where I agree fully with Bakari, > > knowldge is power! Knowledge and information on the basis of which change > > can be negotiated both at an individual and community level has been > witheld > > for far too long from women. Unless and until women conscientize one > another > > or are conscientized to a different reality, such abuses as we see in > > Swaziland will continue. Because culture is not static, and is ever > > changing, what will begin to happen is that together, as women and men we > > will begin to build a new culture that defines aptly who we want to be. > > Unless that happens (not only in Swaziland) but the world over women will > > appear and in fact may just continue to collude in their own oppression. > > > > Oh dear I'm afraid I have gone on and on...apologies Alice for the lenght > of > > this, but I guess what I was trying to say in a very round about way is > (i) > > culture is not static and is capable of being changed by individuals (ii) > > women need to be empowred to begin to see the world differently so they > > contribute meaningfully to processses that shape their lives, including > the > > shaping of culture. > > > > Until next time > > > > Lindiwe Nkutha > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "bakari machumu" > > To: "lindiwe nkutha" ; "research" > > ; > > Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 6:02 PM > > Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > > > > > > > Hi to all, > > > This is kind of a tricky situation where one get > > > confused on a situation like a chick and egg, what > > > comes first. Can't demacate clearly that, from this > > > point on, human rights begins. I think if we are to go > > > on with this culture, custom and tradition thing, then > > > it should be under equal applications for both Men and > > > Women. But do women as women know their right in > > > Swaziland, i mean with the exception of Lindiwe > > > Dlaminimost Swazi women, (its my guess i stand to be > > > corrected) agrees with the culture, customs tradition > > > thing todate. I mean, i can't imagine them continuing > > > parading with their upper bodies and most of the under > > > part in such neckedness, that by itself keeps their > > > minds in it.To me that, consititutes negative cultural > > > practices Now, to solve this thing, i believe on > > > agressive, consistent awareness creation.How? that is > > > the question > > > > > > Bakari > > > Dar es Salaam > > > > > > > > > > > > --- lindiwe nkutha wrote: > > > > Hi to all > > > > > > > > Its an interesting topic isn't it'? the convergence > > > > of human rights and custom/ culture etc. Ideally > > > > these should not be mutually exclusive, me thinks. I > > > > think also that in particular, southern African > > > > customs that espouse or purport to espouse the > > > > principle of Ubuntu should not at all have a problem > > > > with human rights. (but then again there are a lot > > > > of things I think that are not necessarily fact). My > > > > rationale is if the foundation of the concept of > > > > ubuntu which is said to recognise (albeit > > > > philosophically) that "I am because you are" is our > > > > point of departure then who I am is intrinsically > > > > linked to who you are. If you are free, so am I > > > > free, if you are oppressed, so am I oppressed, and > > > > so on and so on. > > > > > > > > But because society loves an "other", and > > > > patriarchy has worked wonders in "securing women's > > > > positions as others", patriarchy in a heavy disguise > > > > as culture has always been used as the banner under > > > > which abuses of human rights are perpetuated. So > > > > that the lines were blurred and everytime we said > > > > "I am because you are" and we were speaking as men, > > > > it almost felt natural, cultural, in line with dated > > > > customs to exclude women. In this context the > > > > speaking ""I am...."' is under patriarchy, not > > > > considered the speaking female, it is always > > > > the"speaking male and this gets termed culturally > > > > acceptable practise, but it is not. > > > > > > > > If we move form the ""ubuntu" premise, we begin to > > > > see that the marginalisation and subjugation of > > > > women is against the principle said to ground our > > > > culture. If we accept, and perhaps this is one > > > > aspect in our "evolution - culturally" that we left > > > > behind, the acceptance that the speaking "I am..." > > > > is both male and female, then within culture we > > > > begin to see that some of the things that get > > > > justified as culture are in fact not cultural, but > > > > are patriarchal practices dressed as culture. > > > > > > > > The king says he will not turn away from his > > > > cultural practices no matter what! Selectively so, > > > > he sticks to his cultural practices when it suits > > > > him, because there are benefits for him. Which is > > > > another thing about culture that is worth > > > > mentioning. More times than not the most vocal > > > > voices on the adoption of culture are those that > > > > have a vested interest in the practice at hand. An > > > > uncle who needs to "cleanse a widow" will probably > > > > be the loudest about upholding culture, even though > > > > they may be silent about other aspects of that same > > > > culture. My point being that culture can be used to > > > > advance or secure people's positions. > > > > > > > > As I sign off, I need to make it clear that I do not > > > > think that culture is all bad. No in fact I > > > > appreciate the critical position that particularly > > > > those in countries that were previously colonised > > > > are grappling with. A project of recovery of that > > > > which we were before our culture was tempered with, > > > > balanced against the reality of the now and who we > > > > define ourselves as presently as well as the > > > > challenge of self definition into the future of who > > > > we want to be. And we sit in a challenging > > > > position. The true test for all of us though (me > > > > thinks) in assessing what is acceptable as culture > > > > and what is not acceptable is whether or not the > > > > precise in any way takes away from an individual > > > > (and in turn the collective...community ...based on > > > > Ubuntu) > > > > ability to enjoy to its full extent the experience > > > > of being human. > > > > > > > > Until later > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: research > > > > To: egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > > > > Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 9:47 AM > > > > Subject: [Egemtraining] This week's discussion > > > > topic: Lets Talk!!! > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear All > > > > > > > > I am sure most of you have been itching to receive > > > > the first discussion topic and are ready to roll!!! > > > > I have been keenly waiting to start as weel. Below > > > > is the discussion topic and the question at the end > > > > of the piece. Please remember not to make your > > > > contribution too long. Just comment as briefly as > > > > possible to give others a chance to also share their > > > > opinions. Also remember to "reply to all" so that > > > > you do not share your opinion just with me but with > > > > all in the network. Happy reading and looking > > > > forward to hearing your opinions!!! > > > > > > > > > > > > Where does culture start and stop, and individual > > > > rights begin? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am sure most of us are aware of the > > > > controversial ongoing court case in Swaziland > > > > between a mother (Lindiwe Dlamini) and the King (his > > > > aides) concerning the abduction of an > > > > 18-year-old-child (Zena) Mahlangu for "royal > > > > duties". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For those who have not been following the case, > > > > the King (who is being sued through his aides, is > > > > alleged to have abducted the child from school > > > > without her mother's knowledge and consent. Lindiwe > > > > wants her child to be returned to her custody and > > > > the King has been arguing that the child is being > > > > kept at the Royal Guest House to be prepared to be > > > > the King's 10th wife. The King was quoted as saying > > > > at a press conference, "The whole issue has been > > > > blown out of proportion by those who took advantage > > > > of trying to destroy our customs and traditions". > > > > People may say whatever they want to sy but I vow to > > > > stick to our traditions, no matter what the times > > > > are. I can be blamed left and right, but the fact of > > > > the matter is that it is our culture that I should > > > > marry many wives as I can. I cannot allow myself to > > > > be forced to follow Western culture". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The controversy is generally seen as a "clash > > > > between customs and modernity". According to custom, > > > > Mswati may choose a new wife each year from among > > > > the thousands of virgins who attend the annual reed > > > > dance". Ironically Mswati last year revived a > > > > traditional ban on sex with underage girls to combat > > > > HIV/AIDS. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > After protests for the abduction of Zena and two > > > > other girls, the King fined himself a cow for > > > > breaking his own royal decree. (BBC News). He was > > > > also quoted as saying that he was prepared to pay > > > > cows as fines for selecting the three girls. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Zena's mother is challenging the alleged > > > > traditional grabbing of her daughter on the grounds > > > > that she was not consulted, did not consent and her > > > > child has been taken out of school and therefore was > > > > abducted. The King's courtiers (aides) have been > > > > arguing that the girl was not abducted but went > > > > willingly. "Everything was arranged between the King > > > > and the girl and our job was just to pick her at the > > > > agreed spot. No force was applied". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Human rights activists have been arguing that > > > > "traditionalists should stop "raping" girls in the > > > > name of culture, while royals have been insisting > > > > that Mswati's selection of Zena to be his bride is a > > > > traditional issue that must be resolved through > > > > Swazi customs and culture. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gender and human rights activists have noted that > > > > Zena is a minor child (18 years) and the abduction > > > > is a criminal offence in that it violates > > > > > > > > 1) Lindiwe Dlamini's rights to custody and > > > > guardianship over her minor child and also that; > > > > > > > > 2) Zena's rights to liberty, freedom of movement, > > > > education, choice of marriage partner, right to be a > > > > child and bodily integrity. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Most of us are, I am sure, aware that Swaziland is > > > > signatory to the SADC Declaration on Gender and > > > > Development which commits it in article (vii) to, > > > > among other things, protecting the human rights of > > > > women and children, which raises a number of > > > > concerns regarding this case. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Question for Discussion > > > > > > > > > > > > 1) Where should culture, custom and tradition > > > > stop and individual human rights begin, to ensure > > > > the > > > === message truncated === > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > Everything you'll ever need on one web page > > > from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts > > > http://uk.my.yahoo.com > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Egemtraining mailing list > > > Egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > > > http://lists.sn.apc.org/mailman/listinfo/egemtraining > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Egemtraining mailing list > > Egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > > http://lists.sn.apc.org/mailman/listinfo/egemtraining > > > From research at genderlinks.org.za Tue Nov 19 17:27:08 2002 From: research at genderlinks.org.za (research) Date: Tue Feb 27 14:10:57 2007 Subject: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity References: <51E0CF9C2CF499478C33F3D4FFD3763097BEC2@exchange.irex.org> <000a01c28fdb$58cdfe60$94228d92@wits.ac.za> Message-ID: <00b401c28fe0$202e32a0$0e00a8c0@ALICEK> Dear All Sorry, i just felt I had to say something again. I think Jennifer and Maggie's contributions here again raise an importnat point, which i think I alluded to in my previous contribution about legal frameworks and constitutional provisions in the region, and this is precisely that most countries in the region have not reformed their laws and legal frameworks to reconcile them with international Human Rights instruments that they have acceded to or ratified. Maybe the question then should be do we reform the laws and frameworks to match international instruments or do we adapt and reform international instruments to fit our frameworks?? And I think this is especially important when we talk gender equality in Southern Africa, where the whole arena of decision-making is generally dominated by men! What do others think? Lets unpack it!!!! Alice ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jennifer Joni" To: "Maggie McDonough" ; "research" ; Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 4:52 PM Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > Maggie, just a pint of clarity. What I was trying to say is that we get > caught up in two situations. One is the human rights debate, which I said > is meant to determine which of our cultural values should remain, that is > does the particular custom /practice pass the constitutional scrutiny. > Second, is then the issue about western values that sometimes get used to > determine which cultural values should remain. I am not at all suggesting > an interrelation between the two concepts. > Human rights are the best thing that has ever happened to planet earth, the > question is: is using the human rights stick or constitutional arguments > relevant in I think we are all trying to uncover here? > The JJ > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Maggie McDonough > To: 'Jennifer Joni' ; research > ; > Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 4:37 PM > Subject: RE: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > > > > Hello again, > > > > I think Jennifer raised some interesting points here, but there is one > point > > in particular that I would like to address -- that is, the concept of > human > > rights being determined by western/colonial values. I actually do not > > accept that human rights is a uniquely western concept. Human rights have > > been invoked by people throughout the world, both historically and > > contemporaneously. Human rights formed the basis of the Non-cooperation > > Movement AGAINST the British in colonial India. Human rights have formed > > the basis against the authoritarian and military regimes of Europe and > > Eurasia. Mass movements (e.g. for gender equality, environmental > > protection, etc) have gained untold strength and sustenance from human > > rights issues. The list can go on. > > > > Anyway, just wanted to add my two cents on this point. > > > > Maggie > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Jennifer Joni [mailto:jonij@law.wits.ac.za] > > Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 6:56 AM > > To: research; egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > > Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > > > > > > maqabane > > > > Interesting subject, culture and people wanting to use culture to do their > > horrendous, violent deeds. There are a few issues that i always grapple > > with when confronted with these questions, which I honestly believe go to > > the root of who we are; I mean those of us who are expected to respect our > > culture. At what point does culture stop being that which we think should > be > > practiced? Is this determined by the western values that have been > > instilled in us since colonialism? Do we (especially in South Africa) say > > that we now have a Constitution which says that conduct that is in not in > > line with the vales in the Constitution, is unconstitutional. Those > values > > being human dignity, equality and blah blah blah. The reason I am raising > > these concerns emanates from a statement made at the Racism Conference, > > where one woman stated that we should be cautious of attempts by the other > > -who is insistent and is forcing the people to abrogate their culture > > because they think it is oppressive. The yardstick being the western > > culture. I am not condoning what Moswati is doing but I would like to know > > what processes need to be put in place to challenge abusive, insulting > > practices. Do we for example take stock of all those practices that we > think > > perpetuate violence against women? and then decide and agree how we are > > going to change them? Who does this for us? In my Xhosa culture there are > > indeed practices that are demeaning, and cause a lot of hardship for > women. > > How do we attend to this. > > > > Salani ngoxolo > > The JJ > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: lindiwe nkutha > > To: research ; > > > Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 10:59 AM > > Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > > > > > > > Hi again > > > > > > Interestingly as we talk about culture we begin to challaenge our own > > > beliefs on what constitutes culture as well as how we understand the > > > workings of it. Critical to this realisation is our understanding and > > > appreciation of how culture is passed on from generation to > > > generation, entrenching positions of indivduals and setting precedents > > > that future genarations will follow often times unquestioned. > > > > > > Bakari raises properly the predicament of chicken and egg where > > > culture is concerned, and so we ask, in the formation of society and > > > the negotiation > > of > > > indivual identities which takes more precedent, the indivual make up > > > of members of communities or the culture into which they are born? And > > > this > > is > > > the real quanandram! > > > > > > If we agree that culture exists for amongst other reasons as a > > > tempalte on which our own indivual identities are formed, we agree > > > also that gender roles are difined in culture; the man as hunter, > > > gatherer and aggressor > > and > > > woman as surbesvient receipient of caring, nurtiring etc etc are > > entrenched > > > also in culture (and not just African cultures, just about all > > > cultures in fact). So that we base our understanding of the situation > > > in Swaziland on this premise, and begin to realise that from > > > generation to generation, > > women > > > in Swaziland would gather for the reed dance, half naked or almost > > entirely > > > completely naked as Bakari says, is no co-incidence, it is done > > > because it is a practice that fore ancestors engaged in as part of > > > their cultural expression ( to what end now, is what we have to > > > grapple with) . > > > > > > As a by the way as on my way to my point, I need to say, Swazi people > > > and in fact most cultures in Southern Africa did not wear anything > > > much before we were introduced to a western way of dressing...part of > > > our colonisation...essentially "nudity" was for us never a tabooo. The > > > comment on nudity reflects how the western way of being have > > > influenced how we see ourselves. > > > > > > Having said that and getting back on course to my point, I need to > > > repeat what I said yesterday, which Columbus picked up on also, that > > > "customs and culture can be used to further gains of individuals". The > > > genesis of the reed dance a Swazi friend informs me, was for the > > > Queen mother, never a parade for the king to choose his wives. It was > > > for the queen mother to choose for herself maidens that would help her > > > in her homestead . The > > "king" > > > has now appropriated this tradition for himself and has turned it into > > > a peep show for himself (re-entrenching women's positions as objects > > > of gaze...for the titilation of his own self). Is it then the practice > > > itself that is wrong or is the "reason" for its continuance that is > > > oppressive? > > and > > > this is the point of this discussion I mantain. Bakari says women in > > > Swaziland ecxept for my namesake Dlamini agree with the culture and > > customs. > > > This statement is not entirely wrong, because if they did not no > > > woman would send their daughters to the reed dance, and as > > > westernised as we > > have > > > become mothers in Swaziland would ensure that if their daughters went > > > they were fully clothed and so on and so on. > > > > > > But why do women continue to send their children? Because women are in > > most > > > cases the custodians of culture, and if we all agree that culture in > > > the wrong hands can be oppressive we begin to appreciate how women > > > remaining oblivious to their oppression can serve the interests of > > > those who seek to keep them oppressed. And right here is where I agree > > > fully with Bakari, knowldge is power! Knowledge and information on the > > > basis of which change can be negotiated both at an individual and > > > community level has been > > witheld > > > for far too long from women. Unless and until women conscientize one > > another > > > or are conscientized to a different reality, such abuses as we see in > > > Swaziland will continue. Because culture is not static, and is ever > > > changing, what will begin to happen is that together, as women and > > > men we will begin to build a new culture that defines aptly who we > > > want to be. Unless that happens (not only in Swaziland) but the world > > > over women will appear and in fact may just continue to collude in > > > their own oppression. > > > > > > Oh dear I'm afraid I have gone on and on...apologies Alice for the > > > lenght > > of > > > this, but I guess what I was trying to say in a very round about way > > > is > > (i) > > > culture is not static and is capable of being changed by individuals > > > (ii) women need to be empowred to begin to see the world differently > > > so they contribute meaningfully to processses that shape their lives, > > > including > > the > > > shaping of culture. > > > > > > Until next time > > > > > > Lindiwe Nkutha > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "bakari machumu" > > > To: "lindiwe nkutha" ; "research" > > > ; > > > Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 6:02 PM > > > Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > > > > > > > > > > Hi to all, > > > > This is kind of a tricky situation where one get > > > > confused on a situation like a chick and egg, what > > > > comes first. Can't demacate clearly that, from this > > > > point on, human rights begins. I think if we are to go > > > > on with this culture, custom and tradition thing, then > > > > it should be under equal applications for both Men and Women. But do > > > > women as women know their right in Swaziland, i mean with the > > > > exception of Lindiwe Dlaminimost Swazi women, (its my guess i stand > > > > to be > > > > corrected) agrees with the culture, customs tradition > > > > thing todate. I mean, i can't imagine them continuing parading with > > > > their upper bodies and most of the under part in such neckedness, > > > > that by itself keeps their minds in it.To me that, consititutes > > > > negative cultural practices Now, to solve this thing, i believe on > > > > agressive, consistent awareness creation.How? that is > > > > the question > > > > > > > > Bakari > > > > Dar es Salaam > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- lindiwe nkutha wrote: > > > > > Hi to all > > > > > > > > > > Its an interesting topic isn't it'? the convergence > > > > > of human rights and custom/ culture etc. Ideally > > > > > these should not be mutually exclusive, me thinks. I think also > > > > > that in particular, southern African customs that espouse or > > > > > purport to espouse the principle of Ubuntu should not at all have > > > > > a problem with human rights. (but then again there are a lot > > > > > of things I think that are not necessarily fact). My > > > > > rationale is if the foundation of the concept of > > > > > ubuntu which is said to recognise (albeit > > > > > philosophically) that "I am because you are" is our > > > > > point of departure then who I am is intrinsically > > > > > linked to who you are. If you are free, so am I > > > > > free, if you are oppressed, so am I oppressed, and > > > > > so on and so on. > > > > > > > > > > But because society loves an "other", and > > > > > patriarchy has worked wonders in "securing women's positions as > > > > > others", patriarchy in a heavy disguise as culture has always been > > > > > used as the banner under which abuses of human rights are > > > > > perpetuated. So that the lines were blurred and everytime we said > > > > > "I am because you are" and we were speaking as men, > > > > > it almost felt natural, cultural, in line with dated > > > > > customs to exclude women. In this context the > > > > > speaking ""I am...."' is under patriarchy, not > > > > > considered the speaking female, it is always > > > > > the"speaking male and this gets termed culturally > > > > > acceptable practise, but it is not. > > > > > > > > > > If we move form the ""ubuntu" premise, we begin to > > > > > see that the marginalisation and subjugation of > > > > > women is against the principle said to ground our culture. If we > > > > > accept, and perhaps this is one aspect in our "evolution - > > > > > culturally" that we left behind, the acceptance that the speaking > > > > > "I am..." is both male and female, then within culture we > > > > > begin to see that some of the things that get > > > > > justified as culture are in fact not cultural, but > > > > > are patriarchal practices dressed as culture. > > > > > > > > > > The king says he will not turn away from his > > > > > cultural practices no matter what! Selectively so, > > > > > he sticks to his cultural practices when it suits > > > > > him, because there are benefits for him. Which is > > > > > another thing about culture that is worth > > > > > mentioning. More times than not the most vocal > > > > > voices on the adoption of culture are those that > > > > > have a vested interest in the practice at hand. An > > > > > uncle who needs to "cleanse a widow" will probably > > > > > be the loudest about upholding culture, even though > > > > > they may be silent about other aspects of that same culture. My > > > > > point being that culture can be used to advance or secure people's > > > > > positions. > > > > > > > > > > As I sign off, I need to make it clear that I do not think that > > > > > culture is all bad. No in fact I appreciate the critical position > > > > > that particularly those in countries that were previously > > > > > colonised are grappling with. A project of recovery of that > > > > > which we were before our culture was tempered with, > > > > > balanced against the reality of the now and who we > > > > > define ourselves as presently as well as the > > > > > challenge of self definition into the future of who > > > > > we want to be. And we sit in a challenging > > > > > position. The true test for all of us though (me > > > > > thinks) in assessing what is acceptable as culture > > > > > and what is not acceptable is whether or not the > > > > > precise in any way takes away from an individual > > > > > (and in turn the collective...community ...based on > > > > > Ubuntu) > > > > > ability to enjoy to its full extent the experience > > > > > of being human. > > > > > > > > > > Until later > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: research > > > > > To: egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > > > > > Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 9:47 AM > > > > > Subject: [Egemtraining] This week's discussion > > > > > topic: Lets Talk!!! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear All > > > > > > > > > > I am sure most of you have been itching to receive > > > > > the first discussion topic and are ready to roll!!! > > > > > I have been keenly waiting to start as weel. Below > > > > > is the discussion topic and the question at the end > > > > > of the piece. Please remember not to make your contribution too > > > > > long. Just comment as briefly as possible to give others a chance > > > > > to also share their opinions. Also remember to "reply to all" so > > > > > that you do not share your opinion just with me but with > > > > > all in the network. Happy reading and looking > > > > > forward to hearing your opinions!!! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Where does culture start and stop, and individual rights begin? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am sure most of us are aware of the > > > > > controversial ongoing court case in Swaziland > > > > > between a mother (Lindiwe Dlamini) and the King (his > > > > > aides) concerning the abduction of an > > > > > 18-year-old-child (Zena) Mahlangu for "royal > > > > > duties". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For those who have not been following the case, > > > > > the King (who is being sued through his aides, is > > > > > alleged to have abducted the child from school > > > > > without her mother's knowledge and consent. Lindiwe > > > > > wants her child to be returned to her custody and > > > > > the King has been arguing that the child is being > > > > > kept at the Royal Guest House to be prepared to be > > > > > the King's 10th wife. The King was quoted as saying > > > > > at a press conference, "The whole issue has been > > > > > blown out of proportion by those who took advantage > > > > > of trying to destroy our customs and traditions". > > > > > People may say whatever they want to sy but I vow to > > > > > stick to our traditions, no matter what the times > > > > > are. I can be blamed left and right, but the fact of > > > > > the matter is that it is our culture that I should > > > > > marry many wives as I can. I cannot allow myself to > > > > > be forced to follow Western culture". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The controversy is generally seen as a "clash > > > > > between customs and modernity". According to custom, > > > > > Mswati may choose a new wife each year from among > > > > > the thousands of virgins who attend the annual reed > > > > > dance". Ironically Mswati last year revived a > > > > > traditional ban on sex with underage girls to combat > > > > > HIV/AIDS. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > After protests for the abduction of Zena and two > > > > > other girls, the King fined himself a cow for > > > > > breaking his own royal decree. (BBC News). He was > > > > > also quoted as saying that he was prepared to pay > > > > > cows as fines for selecting the three girls. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Zena's mother is challenging the alleged > > > > > traditional grabbing of her daughter on the grounds > > > > > that she was not consulted, did not consent and her > > > > > child has been taken out of school and therefore was > > > > > abducted. The King's courtiers (aides) have been > > > > > arguing that the girl was not abducted but went > > > > > willingly. "Everything was arranged between the King > > > > > and the girl and our job was just to pick her at the > > > > > agreed spot. No force was applied". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Human rights activists have been arguing that > > > > > "traditionalists should stop "raping" girls in the > > > > > name of culture, while royals have been insisting > > > > > that Mswati's selection of Zena to be his bride is a > > > > > traditional issue that must be resolved through > > > > > Swazi customs and culture. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gender and human rights activists have noted that > > > > > Zena is a minor child (18 years) and the abduction > > > > > is a criminal offence in that it violates > > > > > > > > > > 1) Lindiwe Dlamini's rights to custody and > > > > > guardianship over her minor child and also that; > > > > > > > > > > 2) Zena's rights to liberty, freedom of movement, > > > > > education, choice of marriage partner, right to be a > > > > > child and bodily integrity. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Most of us are, I am sure, aware that Swaziland is > > > > > signatory to the SADC Declaration on Gender and > > > > > Development which commits it in article (vii) to, > > > > > among other things, protecting the human rights of > > > > > women and children, which raises a number of > > > > > concerns regarding this case. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Question for Discussion > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1) Where should culture, custom and tradition > > > > > stop and individual human rights begin, to ensure > > > > > the > > > > === message truncated === > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > > Everything you'll ever need on one web page > > > > from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts > > > > http://uk.my.yahoo.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Egemtraining mailing list > > > > Egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > > > > http://lists.sn.apc.org/mailman/listinfo/egemtraining > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Egemtraining mailing list > > > Egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > > > http://lists.sn.apc.org/mailman/listinfo/egemtraining > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Egemtraining mailing list > > Egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > > http://lists.sn.apc.org/mailman/listinfo/egemtraining > > _______________________________________________ > > Egemtraining mailing list > > Egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > > http://lists.sn.apc.org/mailman/listinfo/egemtraining > > > From research at genderlinks.org.za Tue Nov 19 14:32:26 2002 From: research at genderlinks.org.za (research) Date: Tue Feb 27 14:10:57 2007 Subject: Fw: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity Message-ID: <007501c28fc7$b8483900$0e00a8c0@ALICEK> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mr T.M. Nxumalo" <118392@uniswacc.uniswa.sz> To: Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 1:18 PM Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > Well this is just one of the things that really worry us in this little kindom of > ours.The issues of culture have a way of evolvin down here to suit the powers > that be.Zena's issue is a very complex so far as the swazi traditional norms > are concerned.The introduction of UMCWASHO the tassels that r worn by > girls was to make it clear that no man is supposed to have sexual intercourse > with those girls for the next five years to curb the HIV/AIDS which the country > is confronted with. > > It is therefore very surprising to see the person who called for the > reintroductoin of this custom contradicting himself in his actions.I'm convinced > that Zena at her tender should be under her mothers care and guidence hence > her case against the kings righthand men who apparently abducted her seein > that she wouldn't be able to face the music for filing a case against the > king,who's authority is said to be only questioned by God. > > This is a really difficult situation her seein that the king has two more girls at > his disposal.It seems people just want to hide behind customs and tradition > to satisfy their lust.The times we live in do not in essence allow such primitive > ways of courting and marrying.Surely a more modern approach can be used if > the need be not that I think the king is entitled to more wives, he has more > than enough. > > Tibza nxumalo > > Swaziland > From radiomaria at malawi.net Tue Nov 19 23:36:04 2002 From: radiomaria at malawi.net (Fr. Steve Kamanga jnr) Date: Tue Feb 27 14:10:57 2007 Subject: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity References: <000a01c28ed6$c05cadc0$0e00a8c0@ALICEK> <00c001c28e26$311b7660$0f00a8c0@MOTH> Message-ID: <03cc01c29014$263442a0$26a894d0@computer> hi to all Am bit late but I must contribute from Malawi. The topic is very interesting. Among the many tribes in Malawi we have similar problems of male dominance which in most cases has built a world where men who are in power create what they distortedly call culture but behind you realise there is a lot of selfishness and greed. Where does culture start and stop, and individual rights begin? The answer to this question is that, culture can not start and stop for rights to take over. Thats not possible. No. culture is there all the time. Individual rights are also there all the time. The two must co-exist. My argument is; culture is there because of people and in fact they are people who form culture. It doesn't exist without people. Take away people culture is not there. Now, people have rights and these do not come at a point in people's lives, Rights are there in as long as people are there. You are born with rights to learn culture. Because of this then, it is clear culture and rights are part of the same person, the two have to live together. One thing I see is that Culture must promote individual rights. I agree culture is dynamic, is never static, it is always changing and because of this then we have an obligation to now and again review our cultures and check if they are still promoting the common good of all the people in the culture, otherwise whatever and whenever we find in culture against the good of people must be subject to elimination. In this case we cannot talk of a clash between culture and modernity because what we should have as culture will not be modernity but modified culture, a kind that suits the modern demands. I think culture must be redefined. Now because we have failed to grasp the true meaning and true qualities of culture, many of us tend to use it to advance our unjust passions. This is very unfortunate. In the case of the Swazi king, I feel the case is very pathetic. It is a true testimony of what is happening in our society, using culture to satisfy our greed. What does the king mean when he says our culture? which culture? whose culture? Culture promotes freedom, justice and responsibility. In the story, Zena is snatched of her freedom to be what she wanted to be in future, she is exposed to first class brutality, no justice, Lindiwe and the whole of her family are not allowed to exercise their responsibility over their child, no justice. I conclude to say, culture is good and must be preserve because exercised well, it promotes and safeguards rights but we should know culture is always open to redefinition, modification and change to make sure it doesn't work against human good. It shouldn't be used to oppress others. Steve Malawi ----- Original Message ----- From: lindiwe nkutha To: research ; egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org Sent: Sunday, November 17, 2002 12:43 PM Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity Hi to all Its an interesting topic isn't it'? the convergence of human rights and custom/ culture etc. Ideally these should not be mutually exclusive, me thinks. I think also that in particular, southern African customs that espouse or purport to espouse the principle of Ubuntu should not at all have a problem with human rights. (but then again there are a lot of things I think that are not necessarily fact). My rationale is if the foundation of the concept of ubuntu which is said to recognise (albeit philosophically) that "I am because you are" is our point of departure then who I am is intrinsically linked to who you are. If you are free, so am I free, if you are oppressed, so am I oppressed, and so on and so on. But because society loves an "other", and patriarchy has worked wonders in "securing women's positions as others", patriarchy in a heavy disguise as culture has always been used as the banner under which abuses of human rights are perpetuated. So that the lines were blurred and everytime we said "I am because you are" and we were speaking as men, it almost felt natural, cultural, in line with dated customs to exclude women. In this context the speaking ""I am...."' is under patriarchy, not considered the speaking female, it is always the"speaking male and this gets termed culturally acceptable practise, but it is not. If we move form the ""ubuntu" premise, we begin to see that the marginalisation and subjugation of women is against the principle said to ground our culture. If we accept, and perhaps this is one aspect in our "evolution - culturally" that we left behind, the acceptance that the speaking "I am..." is both male and female, then within culture we begin to see that some of the things that get justified as culture are in fact not cultural, but are patriarchal practices dressed as culture. The king says he will not turn away from his cultural practices no matter what! Selectively so, he sticks to his cultural practices when it suits him, because there are benefits for him. Which is another thing about culture that is worth mentioning. More times than not the most vocal voices on the adoption of culture are those that have a vested interest in the practice at hand. An uncle who needs to "cleanse a widow" will probably be the loudest about upholding culture, even though they may be silent about other aspects of that same culture. My point being that culture can be used to advance or secure people's positions. As I sign off, I need to make it clear that I do not think that culture is all bad. No in fact I appreciate the critical position that particularly those in countries that were previously colonised are grappling with. A project of recovery of that which we were before our culture was tempered with, balanced against the reality of the now and who we define ourselves as presently as well as the challenge of self definition into the future of who we want to be. And we sit in a challenging position. The true test for all of us though (me thinks) in assessing what is acceptable as culture and what is not acceptable is whether or not the precise in any way takes away from an individual (and in turn the collective...community ...based on Ubuntu) ability to enjoy to its full extent the experience of being human. Until later ----- Original Message ----- From: research To: egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 9:47 AM Subject: [Egemtraining] This week's discussion topic: Lets Talk!!! Dear All I am sure most of you have been itching to receive the first discussion topic and are ready to roll!!! I have been keenly waiting to start as weel. Below is the discussion topic and the question at the end of the piece. Please remember not to make your contribution too long. Just comment as briefly as possible to give others a chance to also share their opinions. Also remember to "reply to all" so that you do not share your opinion just with me but with all in the network. Happy reading and looking forward to hearing your opinions!!! Where does culture start and stop, and individual rights begin? I am sure most of us are aware of the controversial ongoing court case in Swaziland between a mother (Lindiwe Dlamini) and the King (his aides) concerning the abduction of an 18-year-old-child (Zena) Mahlangu for "royal duties". For those who have not been following the case, the King (who is being sued through his aides, is alleged to have abducted the child from school without her mother's knowledge and consent. Lindiwe wants her child to be returned to her custody and the King has been arguing that the child is being kept at the Royal Guest House to be prepared to be the King's 10th wife. The King was quoted as saying at a press conference, "The whole issue has been blown out of proportion by those who took advantage of trying to destroy our customs and traditions". People may say whatever they want to sy but I vow to stick to our traditions, no matter what the times are. I can be blamed left and right, but the fact of the matter is that it is our culture that I should marry many wives as I can. I cannot allow myself to be forced to follow Western culture". The controversy is generally seen as a "clash between customs and modernity". According to custom, Mswati may choose a new wife each year from among the thousands of virgins who attend the annual reed dance". Ironically Mswati last year revived a traditional ban on sex with underage girls to combat HIV/AIDS. After protests for the abduction of Zena and two other girls, the King fined himself a cow for breaking his own royal decree. (BBC News). He was also quoted as saying that he was prepared to pay cows as fines for selecting the three girls. Zena's mother is challenging the alleged traditional grabbing of her daughter on the grounds that she was not consulted, did not consent and her child has been taken out of school and therefore was abducted. The King's courtiers (aides) have been arguing that the girl was not abducted but went willingly. "Everything was arranged between the King and the girl and our job was just to pick her at the agreed spot. No force was applied". Human rights activists have been arguing that "traditionalists should stop "raping" girls in the name of culture, while royals have been insisting that Mswati's selection of Zena to be his bride is a traditional issue that must be resolved through Swazi customs and culture. Gender and human rights activists have noted that Zena is a minor child (18 years) and the abduction is a criminal offence in that it violates 1) Lindiwe Dlamini's rights to custody and guardianship over her minor child and also that; 2) Zena's rights to liberty, freedom of movement, education, choice of marriage partner, right to be a child and bodily integrity. Most of us are, I am sure, aware that Swaziland is signatory to the SADC Declaration on Gender and Development which commits it in article (vii) to, among other things, protecting the human rights of women and children, which raises a number of concerns regarding this case. Question for Discussion 1) Where should culture, custom and tradition stop and individual human rights begin, to ensure the enjoyment of these rights especially by women? Here women are singled out because most negative cultural practices tend to disadvantage them more than men, since in patriarchal societies men are the ones who define culture? Lets Talk!!! Alice Kwaramba Senior Researcher Gender Links 1 Ernest Oppenheimer Street Lower Ground Floor Lakeside Place Bruma, 2198 Johannesburg South Africa Tel: +27 11 622 2877/7796 Fax: +27 11 622 4732 Email: alice@genderlinks.org.za research@genderlinks.org.za URL: www.genderlinks.org.za -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.sn.apc.org/pipermail/egemtraining/attachments/20021119/5901482a/attachment.htm From radiomaria at malawi.net Tue Nov 19 23:58:27 2002 From: radiomaria at malawi.net (Fr. Steve Kamanga jnr) Date: Tue Feb 27 14:10:57 2007 Subject: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity References: <51E0CF9C2CF499478C33F3D4FFD3763097BEC2@exchange.irex.org> <000a01c28fdb$58cdfe60$94228d92@wits.ac.za> <00b401c28fe0$202e32a0$0e00a8c0@ALICEK> Message-ID: <03f901c29017$69286de0$26a894d0@computer> I agree our laws are not updated to suit our current environment. We are saying culture is dynamic (always changing), it follows therefore that the laws that govern, protect and enforces such a culture must also be changing/modified when culture is modified. What we see happening is we are using same laws in a very modified culture. Steve Malawi ----- Original Message ----- From: research To: Jennifer Joni ; Maggie McDonough ; Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 5:27 PM Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > Dear All > Sorry, i just felt I had to say something again. I think Jennifer and > Maggie's contributions here again raise an importnat point, which i think I > alluded to in my previous contribution about legal frameworks and > constitutional provisions in the region, and this is precisely that most > countries in the region have not reformed their laws and legal frameworks to > reconcile them with international Human Rights instruments that they have > acceded to or ratified. Maybe the question then should be do we reform the > laws and frameworks to match international instruments or do we adapt and > reform international instruments to fit our frameworks?? And I think this is > especially important when we talk gender equality in Southern Africa, where > the whole arena of decision-making is generally dominated by men! > What do others think? Lets unpack it!!!! > Alice > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jennifer Joni" > To: "Maggie McDonough" ; "research" > ; > Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 4:52 PM > Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > > > > Maggie, just a pint of clarity. What I was trying to say is that we get > > caught up in two situations. One is the human rights debate, which I said > > is meant to determine which of our cultural values should remain, that is > > does the particular custom /practice pass the constitutional scrutiny. > > Second, is then the issue about western values that sometimes get used to > > determine which cultural values should remain. I am not at all suggesting > > an interrelation between the two concepts. > > Human rights are the best thing that has ever happened to planet earth, > the > > question is: is using the human rights stick or constitutional arguments > > relevant in I think we are all trying to uncover here? > > The JJ > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Maggie McDonough > > To: 'Jennifer Joni' ; research > > ; > > Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 4:37 PM > > Subject: RE: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > > > > > > > Hello again, > > > > > > I think Jennifer raised some interesting points here, but there is one > > point > > > in particular that I would like to address -- that is, the concept of > > human > > > rights being determined by western/colonial values. I actually do not > > > accept that human rights is a uniquely western concept. Human rights > have > > > been invoked by people throughout the world, both historically and > > > contemporaneously. Human rights formed the basis of the Non-cooperation > > > Movement AGAINST the British in colonial India. Human rights have > formed > > > the basis against the authoritarian and military regimes of Europe and > > > Eurasia. Mass movements (e.g. for gender equality, environmental > > > protection, etc) have gained untold strength and sustenance from human > > > rights issues. The list can go on. > > > > > > Anyway, just wanted to add my two cents on this point. > > > > > > Maggie > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Jennifer Joni [mailto:jonij@law.wits.ac.za] > > > Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 6:56 AM > > > To: research; egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > > > Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > > > > > > > > > maqabane > > > > > > Interesting subject, culture and people wanting to use culture to do > their > > > horrendous, violent deeds. There are a few issues that i always grapple > > > with when confronted with these questions, which I honestly believe go > to > > > the root of who we are; I mean those of us who are expected to respect > our > > > culture. At what point does culture stop being that which we think > should > > be > > > practiced? Is this determined by the western values that have been > > > instilled in us since colonialism? Do we (especially in South Africa) > say > > > that we now have a Constitution which says that conduct that is in not > in > > > line with the vales in the Constitution, is unconstitutional. Those > > values > > > being human dignity, equality and blah blah blah. The reason I am > raising > > > these concerns emanates from a statement made at the Racism Conference, > > > where one woman stated that we should be cautious of attempts by the > other > > > -who is insistent and is forcing the people to abrogate their culture > > > because they think it is oppressive. The yardstick being the western > > > culture. I am not condoning what Moswati is doing but I would like to > know > > > what processes need to be put in place to challenge abusive, insulting > > > practices. Do we for example take stock of all those practices that we > > think > > > perpetuate violence against women? and then decide and agree how we are > > > going to change them? Who does this for us? In my Xhosa culture there > are > > > indeed practices that are demeaning, and cause a lot of hardship for > > women. > > > How do we attend to this. > > > > > > Salani ngoxolo > > > The JJ > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: lindiwe nkutha > > > To: research ; > > > > > Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 10:59 AM > > > Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > > > > > > > > > > Hi again > > > > > > > > Interestingly as we talk about culture we begin to challaenge our own > > > > beliefs on what constitutes culture as well as how we understand the > > > > workings of it. Critical to this realisation is our understanding and > > > > appreciation of how culture is passed on from generation to > > > > generation, entrenching positions of indivduals and setting precedents > > > > that future genarations will follow often times unquestioned. > > > > > > > > Bakari raises properly the predicament of chicken and egg where > > > > culture is concerned, and so we ask, in the formation of society and > > > > the negotiation > > > of > > > > indivual identities which takes more precedent, the indivual make up > > > > of members of communities or the culture into which they are born? And > > > > this > > > is > > > > the real quanandram! > > > > > > > > If we agree that culture exists for amongst other reasons as a > > > > tempalte on which our own indivual identities are formed, we agree > > > > also that gender roles are difined in culture; the man as hunter, > > > > gatherer and aggressor > > > and > > > > woman as surbesvient receipient of caring, nurtiring etc etc are > > > entrenched > > > > also in culture (and not just African cultures, just about all > > > > cultures in fact). So that we base our understanding of the situation > > > > in Swaziland on this premise, and begin to realise that from > > > > generation to generation, > > > women > > > > in Swaziland would gather for the reed dance, half naked or almost > > > entirely > > > > completely naked as Bakari says, is no co-incidence, it is done > > > > because it is a practice that fore ancestors engaged in as part of > > > > their cultural expression ( to what end now, is what we have to > > > > grapple with) . > > > > > > > > As a by the way as on my way to my point, I need to say, Swazi people > > > > and in fact most cultures in Southern Africa did not wear anything > > > > much before we were introduced to a western way of dressing...part of > > > > our colonisation...essentially "nudity" was for us never a tabooo. The > > > > comment on nudity reflects how the western way of being have > > > > influenced how we see ourselves. > > > > > > > > Having said that and getting back on course to my point, I need to > > > > repeat what I said yesterday, which Columbus picked up on also, that > > > > "customs and culture can be used to further gains of individuals". The > > > > genesis of the reed dance a Swazi friend informs me, was for the > > > > Queen mother, never a parade for the king to choose his wives. It was > > > > for the queen mother to choose for herself maidens that would help her > > > > in her homestead . The > > > "king" > > > > has now appropriated this tradition for himself and has turned it into > > > > a peep show for himself (re-entrenching women's positions as objects > > > > of gaze...for the titilation of his own self). Is it then the practice > > > > itself that is wrong or is the "reason" for its continuance that is > > > > oppressive? > > > and > > > > this is the point of this discussion I mantain. Bakari says women in > > > > Swaziland ecxept for my namesake Dlamini agree with the culture and > > > customs. > > > > This statement is not entirely wrong, because if they did not no > > > > woman would send their daughters to the reed dance, and as > > > > westernised as we > > > have > > > > become mothers in Swaziland would ensure that if their daughters went > > > > they were fully clothed and so on and so on. > > > > > > > > But why do women continue to send their children? Because women are in > > > most > > > > cases the custodians of culture, and if we all agree that culture in > > > > the wrong hands can be oppressive we begin to appreciate how women > > > > remaining oblivious to their oppression can serve the interests of > > > > those who seek to keep them oppressed. And right here is where I agree > > > > fully with Bakari, knowldge is power! Knowledge and information on the > > > > basis of which change can be negotiated both at an individual and > > > > community level has been > > > witheld > > > > for far too long from women. Unless and until women conscientize one > > > another > > > > or are conscientized to a different reality, such abuses as we see in > > > > Swaziland will continue. Because culture is not static, and is ever > > > > changing, what will begin to happen is that together, as women and > > > > men we will begin to build a new culture that defines aptly who we > > > > want to be. Unless that happens (not only in Swaziland) but the world > > > > over women will appear and in fact may just continue to collude in > > > > their own oppression. > > > > > > > > Oh dear I'm afraid I have gone on and on...apologies Alice for the > > > > lenght > > > of > > > > this, but I guess what I was trying to say in a very round about way > > > > is > > > (i) > > > > culture is not static and is capable of being changed by individuals > > > > (ii) women need to be empowred to begin to see the world differently > > > > so they contribute meaningfully to processses that shape their lives, > > > > including > > > the > > > > shaping of culture. > > > > > > > > Until next time > > > > > > > > Lindiwe Nkutha > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "bakari machumu" > > > > To: "lindiwe nkutha" ; "research" > > > > ; > > > > Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 6:02 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi to all, > > > > > This is kind of a tricky situation where one get > > > > > confused on a situation like a chick and egg, what > > > > > comes first. Can't demacate clearly that, from this > > > > > point on, human rights begins. I think if we are to go > > > > > on with this culture, custom and tradition thing, then > > > > > it should be under equal applications for both Men and Women. But do > > > > > women as women know their right in Swaziland, i mean with the > > > > > exception of Lindiwe Dlaminimost Swazi women, (its my guess i stand > > > > > to be > > > > > corrected) agrees with the culture, customs tradition > > > > > thing todate. I mean, i can't imagine them continuing parading with > > > > > their upper bodies and most of the under part in such neckedness, > > > > > that by itself keeps their minds in it.To me that, consititutes > > > > > negative cultural practices Now, to solve this thing, i believe on > > > > > agressive, consistent awareness creation.How? that is > > > > > the question > > > > > > > > > > Bakari > > > > > Dar es Salaam > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- lindiwe nkutha wrote: > > > > > > Hi to all > > > > > > > > > > > > Its an interesting topic isn't it'? the convergence > > > > > > of human rights and custom/ culture etc. Ideally > > > > > > these should not be mutually exclusive, me thinks. I think also > > > > > > that in particular, southern African customs that espouse or > > > > > > purport to espouse the principle of Ubuntu should not at all have > > > > > > a problem with human rights. (but then again there are a lot > > > > > > of things I think that are not necessarily fact). My > > > > > > rationale is if the foundation of the concept of > > > > > > ubuntu which is said to recognise (albeit > > > > > > philosophically) that "I am because you are" is our > > > > > > point of departure then who I am is intrinsically > > > > > > linked to who you are. If you are free, so am I > > > > > > free, if you are oppressed, so am I oppressed, and > > > > > > so on and so on. > > > > > > > > > > > > But because society loves an "other", and > > > > > > patriarchy has worked wonders in "securing women's positions as > > > > > > others", patriarchy in a heavy disguise as culture has always been > > > > > > used as the banner under which abuses of human rights are > > > > > > perpetuated. So that the lines were blurred and everytime we said > > > > > > "I am because you are" and we were speaking as men, > > > > > > it almost felt natural, cultural, in line with dated > > > > > > customs to exclude women. In this context the > > > > > > speaking ""I am...."' is under patriarchy, not > > > > > > considered the speaking female, it is always > > > > > > the"speaking male and this gets termed culturally > > > > > > acceptable practise, but it is not. > > > > > > > > > > > > If we move form the ""ubuntu" premise, we begin to > > > > > > see that the marginalisation and subjugation of > > > > > > women is against the principle said to ground our culture. If we > > > > > > accept, and perhaps this is one aspect in our "evolution - > > > > > > culturally" that we left behind, the acceptance that the speaking > > > > > > "I am..." is both male and female, then within culture we > > > > > > begin to see that some of the things that get > > > > > > justified as culture are in fact not cultural, but > > > > > > are patriarchal practices dressed as culture. > > > > > > > > > > > > The king says he will not turn away from his > > > > > > cultural practices no matter what! Selectively so, > > > > > > he sticks to his cultural practices when it suits > > > > > > him, because there are benefits for him. Which is > > > > > > another thing about culture that is worth > > > > > > mentioning. More times than not the most vocal > > > > > > voices on the adoption of culture are those that > > > > > > have a vested interest in the practice at hand. An > > > > > > uncle who needs to "cleanse a widow" will probably > > > > > > be the loudest about upholding culture, even though > > > > > > they may be silent about other aspects of that same culture. My > > > > > > point being that culture can be used to advance or secure people's > > > > > > positions. > > > > > > > > > > > > As I sign off, I need to make it clear that I do not think that > > > > > > culture is all bad. No in fact I appreciate the critical position > > > > > > that particularly those in countries that were previously > > > > > > colonised are grappling with. A project of recovery of that > > > > > > which we were before our culture was tempered with, > > > > > > balanced against the reality of the now and who we > > > > > > define ourselves as presently as well as the > > > > > > challenge of self definition into the future of who > > > > > > we want to be. And we sit in a challenging > > > > > > position. The true test for all of us though (me > > > > > > thinks) in assessing what is acceptable as culture > > > > > > and what is not acceptable is whether or not the > > > > > > precise in any way takes away from an individual > > > > > > (and in turn the collective...community ...based on > > > > > > Ubuntu) > > > > > > ability to enjoy to its full extent the experience > > > > > > of being human. > > > > > > > > > > > > Until later > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > From: research > > > > > > To: egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > > > > > > Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 9:47 AM > > > > > > Subject: [Egemtraining] This week's discussion > > > > > > topic: Lets Talk!!! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear All > > > > > > > > > > > > I am sure most of you have been itching to receive > > > > > > the first discussion topic and are ready to roll!!! > > > > > > I have been keenly waiting to start as weel. Below > > > > > > is the discussion topic and the question at the end > > > > > > of the piece. Please remember not to make your contribution too > > > > > > long. Just comment as briefly as possible to give others a chance > > > > > > to also share their opinions. Also remember to "reply to all" so > > > > > > that you do not share your opinion just with me but with > > > > > > all in the network. Happy reading and looking > > > > > > forward to hearing your opinions!!! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Where does culture start and stop, and individual rights begin? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am sure most of us are aware of the > > > > > > controversial ongoing court case in Swaziland > > > > > > between a mother (Lindiwe Dlamini) and the King (his > > > > > > aides) concerning the abduction of an > > > > > > 18-year-old-child (Zena) Mahlangu for "royal > > > > > > duties". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For those who have not been following the case, > > > > > > the King (who is being sued through his aides, is > > > > > > alleged to have abducted the child from school > > > > > > without her mother's knowledge and consent. Lindiwe > > > > > > wants her child to be returned to her custody and > > > > > > the King has been arguing that the child is being > > > > > > kept at the Royal Guest House to be prepared to be > > > > > > the King's 10th wife. The King was quoted as saying > > > > > > at a press conference, "The whole issue has been > > > > > > blown out of proportion by those who took advantage > > > > > > of trying to destroy our customs and traditions". > > > > > > People may say whatever they want to sy but I vow to > > > > > > stick to our traditions, no matter what the times > > > > > > are. I can be blamed left and right, but the fact of > > > > > > the matter is that it is our culture that I should > > > > > > marry many wives as I can. I cannot allow myself to > > > > > > be forced to follow Western culture". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The controversy is generally seen as a "clash > > > > > > between customs and modernity". According to custom, > > > > > > Mswati may choose a new wife each year from among > > > > > > the thousands of virgins who attend the annual reed > > > > > > dance". Ironically Mswati last year revived a > > > > > > traditional ban on sex with underage girls to combat > > > > > > HIV/AIDS. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > After protests for the abduction of Zena and two > > > > > > other girls, the King fined himself a cow for > > > > > > breaking his own royal decree. (BBC News). He was > > > > > > also quoted as saying that he was prepared to pay > > > > > > cows as fines for selecting the three girls. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Zena's mother is challenging the alleged > > > > > > traditional grabbing of her daughter on the grounds > > > > > > that she was not consulted, did not consent and her > > > > > > child has been taken out of school and therefore was > > > > > > abducted. The King's courtiers (aides) have been > > > > > > arguing that the girl was not abducted but went > > > > > > willingly. "Everything was arranged between the King > > > > > > and the girl and our job was just to pick her at the > > > > > > agreed spot. No force was applied". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Human rights activists have been arguing that > > > > > > "traditionalists should stop "raping" girls in the > > > > > > name of culture, while royals have been insisting > > > > > > that Mswati's selection of Zena to be his bride is a > > > > > > traditional issue that must be resolved through > > > > > > Swazi customs and culture. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gender and human rights activists have noted that > > > > > > Zena is a minor child (18 years) and the abduction > > > > > > is a criminal offence in that it violates > > > > > > > > > > > > 1) Lindiwe Dlamini's rights to custody and > > > > > > guardianship over her minor child and also that; > > > > > > > > > > > > 2) Zena's rights to liberty, freedom of movement, > > > > > > education, choice of marriage partner, right to be a > > > > > > child and bodily integrity. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Most of us are, I am sure, aware that Swaziland is > > > > > > signatory to the SADC Declaration on Gender and > > > > > > Development which commits it in article (vii) to, > > > > > > among other things, protecting the human rights of > > > > > > women and children, which raises a number of > > > > > > concerns regarding this case. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Question for Discussion > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1) Where should culture, custom and tradition > > > > > > stop and individual human rights begin, to ensure > > > > > > the > > > > > === message truncated === > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > > > Everything you'll ever need on one web page > > > > > from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts > > > > > http://uk.my.yahoo.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > Egemtraining mailing list > > > > > Egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > > > > > http://lists.sn.apc.org/mailman/listinfo/egemtraining > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Egemtraining mailing list > > > > Egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > > > > http://lists.sn.apc.org/mailman/listinfo/egemtraining > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Egemtraining mailing list > > > Egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > > > http://lists.sn.apc.org/mailman/listinfo/egemtraining > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Egemtraining mailing list > > > Egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > > > http://lists.sn.apc.org/mailman/listinfo/egemtraining > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Egemtraining mailing list > Egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > http://lists.sn.apc.org/mailman/listinfo/egemtraining From radiomaria at malawi.net Wed Nov 20 00:21:36 2002 From: radiomaria at malawi.net (Fr. Steve Kamanga jnr) Date: Tue Feb 27 14:10:57 2007 Subject: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity References: <000a01c28ed6$c05cadc0$0e00a8c0@ALICEK> <00c001c28e26$311b7660$0f00a8c0@MOTH> <03cc01c29014$263442a0$26a894d0@computer> Message-ID: <045301c2901a$8cbf6c60$26a894d0@computer> One thing to add We should change some bad aspects in our culture since culture is living but in most cases in this part of Africa it is difficult to effect this change because a larger percentage of the population is illiterate and such oppressive beliefs about culture take root among the illiterate many of which become stereotyped and believe such practices though bad in themselves are necessary in their lives. To bring a change in the culture we have to check and deal with the people's literacy. Steve Malawi -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.sn.apc.org/pipermail/egemtraining/attachments/20021120/70224364/attachment.html From jonij at law.wits.ac.za Wed Nov 20 07:27:55 2002 From: jonij at law.wits.ac.za (Jennifer Joni) Date: Tue Feb 27 14:10:57 2007 Subject: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity References: <000a01c28ed6$c05cadc0$0e00a8c0@ALICEK> <00c001c28e26$311b7660$0f00a8c0@MOTH> <03cc01c29014$263442a0$26a894d0@computer> <045301c2901a$8cbf6c60$26a894d0@computer> Message-ID: <002201c29055$9494e100$94228d92@wits.ac.za> Exactly the point. I think we need to emphasize and appreciate the fact that we have sections in our communities who believe that culture is 'necessary in their lives', I do too. I think this is a very sensitive subject that needs proper negotiation and handling. We cannot deny that culture defines who we are as a people and can therefore not be thrown away that easily. We also should not be flattered and think we can just turn around one morning and say we need to change culture because it is oppressive. Oppressive it is, but also an essential part of our existence. That's that for the JJ. ----- Original Message ----- From: Fr. Steve Kamanga jnr To: Fr. Steve Kamanga jnr ; lindiwe nkutha ; research ; egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2002 12:21 AM Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity One thing to add We should change some bad aspects in our culture since culture is living but in most cases in this part of Africa it is difficult to effect this change because a larger percentage of the population is illiterate and such oppressive beliefs about culture take root among the illiterate many of which become stereotyped and believe such practices though bad in themselves are necessary in their lives. To bring a change in the culture we have to check and deal with the people's literacy. Steve Malawi -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.sn.apc.org/pipermail/egemtraining/attachments/20021120/26d0a677/attachment.htm From lindiwe at genderlinks.org.za Tue Nov 19 07:25:55 2002 From: lindiwe at genderlinks.org.za (lindiwe nkutha) Date: Tue Feb 27 14:10:57 2007 Subject: Fw: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity Message-ID: <01ed01c28f8c$227e6f60$0f00a8c0@MOTH> ----- Original Message ----- From: lindiwe nkutha To: research Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 7:24 AM Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity Dear all I think us taking this discussion to the next level is only fair. Law, and the legal people in the group will verify if my lay person definition is sound. Law is by definition : the principles and regulations established in a community by some authority and applicable to its people, whether in the form of legislation or of custom and policies recognized and enforced by judicial decision. I emphasise from this definition: established in a community by some authority - and it has come up during this discussion, the question of who has the power to define laws. In patriachal societies it is the men. In our socities we seem to be in agreement that it is the men, a look at the composition of judicial systems in the world point to the fact that indeed it is men. Whether the communities we are looking at are our local communities or the international community. To call for a reform of the law in and of themselves is but one variable in this equation, the hidden layer is "whose laws". If women continue to be left out of processes that define rules and relugaltions that affaect their lives, it does not matter whether we change international laws to be in harmony with local laws, or vice versa, the people changing the laws are the critical components to what laws we end up with. Me advocates for the a change in the way we do things, the embracing of a more inclusionary way of doing things, so that where even intenational clauses have obscure little comments that say something to the effect that "this law is applicable, subject to the customs, cultural practices and religions of given countries" women can at least know and rest assured that even these (customs, culture, religion) are shaped and defined by them as well as have their best interests at heart. I agree with the vicar, there should be no starting or stopping of one for the other to begin, individuals by the very fact of them being individuals have the right to be treated as spelled out in the Bill of Human Rights, anything less is abuse and should not be lauded as anything else but should be exposed for the abuse that it actually is on both the individual and ultimately on society. Regards Lindiwe Nkutha ----- Original Message ----- From: "research" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 2:32 PM Subject: Fw: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mr T.M. Nxumalo" <118392@uniswacc.uniswa.sz> > To: > Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 1:18 PM > Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > > > > Well this is just one of the things that really worry us in this little > kindom of > > ours.The issues of culture have a way of evolvin down here to suit the > powers > > that be.Zena's issue is a very complex so far as the swazi traditional > norms > > are concerned.The introduction of UMCWASHO the tassels that r worn by > > girls was to make it clear that no man is supposed to have sexual > intercourse > > with those girls for the next five years to curb the HIV/AIDS which the > country > > is confronted with. > > > > It is therefore very surprising to see the person who called for the > > reintroductoin of this custom contradicting himself in his actions.I'm > convinced > > that Zena at her tender should be under her mothers care and guidence > hence > > her case against the kings righthand men who apparently abducted her seein > > that she wouldn't be able to face the music for filing a case against the > > king,who's authority is said to be only questioned by God. > > > > This is a really difficult situation her seein that the king has two more > girls at > > his disposal.It seems people just want to hide behind customs and > tradition > > to satisfy their lust.The times we live in do not in essence allow such > primitive > > ways of courting and marrying.Surely a more modern approach can be used if > > the need be not that I think the king is entitled to more wives, he has > more > > than enough. > > > > Tibza nxumalo > > > > Swaziland > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Egemtraining mailing list > Egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > http://lists.sn.apc.org/mailman/listinfo/egemtraining > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.sn.apc.org/pipermail/egemtraining/attachments/20021119/d63e278f/attachment.html From wlsales at ilesotho.com Wed Nov 20 10:35:42 2002 From: wlsales at ilesotho.com (wlsales) Date: Tue Feb 27 14:10:57 2007 Subject: [Egemtraining] Testing References: <000a01c2895a$148afc30$0e00a8c0@ALICEK> Message-ID: <000d01c2906f$e2f26060$0101a8c0@lesoff.co.za> Dear alice, We were away the whole of last week,11-17 Nov. I received your letter of 8th Nov but not the course outline. I am interested in joining in but I do not know the rules. I have howevr received all the discussionsand would like to join in. Good work! Please get to me soonest. Keiso ----- Original Message ----- From: research To: egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org Sent: 11 November 2002 10:12 Subject: [Egemtraining] Testing Dear Colleagues Hello all! this is to test our new group which I have just set up. May you please confirm receipt of this note so we can start the ball rolling on the online training. I ma excited and looking forward to interesting discussions. Hope to hear from you sonn. Please remember to REPLY TO ALL when you respond to all this communication so that we know we are all connected. Awaiting your responses now Thanks alice -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.sn.apc.org/pipermail/egemtraining/attachments/20021120/2523b3ce/attachment.htm From jbwmolemogi at yahoo.com Wed Nov 20 10:35:05 2002 From: jbwmolemogi at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?jullian=20molemogi?=) Date: Tue Feb 27 14:10:57 2007 Subject: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity In-Reply-To: <00b401c28fe0$202e32a0$0e00a8c0@ALICEK> Message-ID: <20021120083505.21420.qmail@web14807.mail.yahoo.com> Dear all having just joined in the discussion i want to agree in all honesty with maggie that indeed there is a serious clash between human rights and culture. zena represents many other girls who have fallen victims to cultural practices that perpetuate total disregard for women/girls human rights. This incident is a mirror for swazi women in particular to look thrugh themselves and question some of the cultural practices which interestingly they are at the forefront in enforcing. it can not be over emphasised that strong legal frameworks needs to be put in place as watchdogs for culprits who dress "culture" in persuit of their evil ends.a fair and uniform practice calls for a total review and reform of laws to match human rights and that is exactly what the women' organisations in this region are fighting for. whatever way we look at it this is a problem so deep rootedthat it will stay with us for a longer time for as long as the youngsters grow up internalizing the cultural norms that reinforce sexrole stereotyping. jullian research wrote:Dear All Sorry, i just felt I had to say something again. I think Jennifer and Maggie's contributions here again raise an importnat point, which i think I alluded to in my previous contribution about legal frameworks and constitutional provisions in the region, and this is precisely that most countries in the region have not reformed their laws and legal frameworks to reconcile them with international Human Rights instruments that they have acceded to or ratified. Maybe the question then should be do we reform the laws and frameworks to match international instruments or do we adapt and reform international instruments to fit our frameworks?? And I think this is especially important when we talk gender equality in Southern Africa, where the whole arena of decision-making is generally dominated by men! What do others think? Lets unpack it!!!! Alice ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jennifer Joni" To: "Maggie McDonough" ; "research" ; Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 4:52 PM Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > Maggie, just a pint of clarity. What I was trying to say is that we get > caught up in two situations. One is the human rights debate, which I said > is meant to determine which of our cultural values should remain, that is > does the particular custom /practice pass the constitutional scrutiny. > Second, is then the issue about western values that sometimes get used to > determine which cultural values should remain. I am not at all suggesting > an interrelation between the two concepts. > Human rights are the best thing that has ever happened to planet earth, the > question is: is using the human rights stick or constitutional arguments > relevant in I think we are all trying to uncover here? > The JJ > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Maggie McDonough > To: 'Jennifer Joni' ; research > ; > Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 4:37 PM > Subject: RE: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > > > > Hello again, > > > > I think Jennifer raised some interesting points here, but there is one > point > > in particular that I would like to address -- that is, the concept of > human > > rights being determined by western/colonial values. I actually do not > > accept that human rights is a uniquely western concept. Human rights have > > been invoked by people throughout the world, both historically and > > contemporaneously. Human rights formed the basis of the Non-cooperation > > Movement AGAINST the British in colonial India. Human rights have formed > > the basis against the authoritarian and military regimes of Europe and > > Eurasia. Mass movements (e.g. for gender equality, environmental > > protection, etc) have gained untold strength and sustenance from human > > rights issues. The list can go on. > > > > Anyway, just wanted to add my two cents on this point. > > > > Maggie > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Jennifer Joni [mailto:jonij@law.wits.ac.za] > > Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 6:56 AM > > To: research; egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > > Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > > > > > > maqabane > > > > Interesting subject, culture and people wanting to use culture to do their > > horrendous, violent deeds. There are a few issues that i always grapple > > with when confronted with these questions, which I honestly believe go to > > the root of who we are; I mean those of us who are expected to respect our > > culture. At what point does culture stop being that which we think should > be > > practiced? Is this determined by the western values that have been > > instilled in us since colonialism? Do we (especially in South Africa) say > > that we now have a Constitution which says that conduct that is in not in > > line with the vales in the Constitution, is unconstitutional. Those > values > > being human dignity, equality and blah blah blah. The reason I am raising > > these concerns emanates from a statement made at the Racism Conference, > > where one woman stated that we should be cautious of attempts by the other > > -who is insistent and is forcing the people to abrogate their culture > > because they think it is oppressive. The yardstick being the western > > culture. I am not condoning what Moswati is doing but I would like to know > > what processes need to be put in place to challenge abusive, insulting > > practices. Do we for example take stock of all those practices that we > think > > perpetuate violence against women? and then decide and agree how we are > > going to change them? Who does this for us? In my Xhosa culture there are > > indeed practices that are demeaning, and cause a lot of hardship for > women. > > How do we attend to this. > > > > Salani ngoxolo > > The JJ > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: lindiwe nkutha > > To: research ; > > > Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 10:59 AM > > Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > > > > > > > Hi again > > > > > > Interestingly as we talk about culture we begin to challaenge our own > > > beliefs on what constitutes culture as well as how we understand the > > > workings of it. Critical to this realisation is our understanding and > > > appreciation of how culture is passed on from generation to > > > generation, entrenching positions of indivduals and setting precedents > > > that future genarations will follow often times unquestioned. > > > > > > Bakari raises properly the predicament of chicken and egg where > > > culture is concerned, and so we ask, in the formation of society and > > > the negotiation > > of > > > indivual identities which takes more precedent, the indivual make up > > > of members of communities or the culture into which they are born? And > > > this > > is > > > the real quanandram! > > > > > > If we agree that culture exists for amongst other reasons as a > > > tempalte on which our own indivual identities are formed, we agree > > > also that gender roles are difined in culture; the man as hunter, > > > gatherer and aggressor > > and > > > woman as surbesvient receipient of caring, nurtiring etc etc are > > entrenched > > > also in culture (and not just African cultures, just about all > > > cultures in fact). So that we base our understanding of the situation > > > in Swaziland on this premise, and begin to realise that from > > > generation to generation, > > women > > > in Swaziland would gather for the reed dance, half naked or almost > > entirely > > > completely naked as Bakari says, is no co-incidence, it is done > > > because it is a practice that fore ancestors engaged in as part of > > > their cultural expression ( to what end now, is what we have to > > > grapple with) . > > > > > > As a by the way as on my way to my point, I need to say, Swazi people > > > and in fact most cultures in Southern Africa did not wear anything > > > much before we were introduced to a western way of dressing...part of > > > our colonisation...essentially "nudity" was for us never a tabooo. The > > > comment on nudity reflects how the western way of being have > > > influenced how we see ourselves. > > > > > > Having said that and getting back on course to my point, I need to > > > repeat what I said yesterday, which Columbus picked up on also, that > > > "customs and culture can be used to further gains of individuals". The > > > genesis of the reed dance a Swazi friend informs me, was for the > > > Queen mother, never a parade for the king to choose his wives. It was > > > for the queen mother to choose for herself maidens that would help her > > > in her homestead . The > > "king" > > > has now appropriated this tradition for himself and has turned it into > > > a peep show for himself (re-entrenching women's positions as objects > > > of gaze...for the titilation of his own self). Is it then the practice > > > itself that is wrong or is the "reason" for its continuance that is > > > oppressive? > > and > > > this is the point of this discussion I mantain. Bakari says women in > > > Swaziland ecxept for my namesake Dlamini agree with the culture and > > customs. > > > This statement is not entirely wrong, because if they did not no > > > woman would send their daughters to the reed dance, and as > > > westernised as we > > have > > > become mothers in Swaziland would ensure that if their daughters went > > > they were fully clothed and so on and so on. > > > > > > But why do women continue to send their children? Because women are in > > most > > > cases the custodians of culture, and if we all agree that culture in > > > the wrong hands can be oppressive we begin to appreciate how women > > > remaining oblivious to their oppression can serve the interests of > > > those who seek to keep them oppressed. And right here is where I agree > > > fully with Bakari, knowldge is power! Knowledge and information on the > > > basis of which change can be negotiated both at an individual and > > > community level has been > > witheld > > > for far too long from women. Unless and until women conscientize one > > another > > > or are conscientized to a different reality, such abuses as we see in > > > Swaziland will continue. Because culture is not static, and is ever > > > changing, what will begin to happen is that together, as women and > > > men we will begin to build a new culture that defines aptly who we > > > want to be. Unless that happens (not only in Swaziland) but the world > > > over women will appear and in fact may just continue to collude in > > > their own oppression. > > > > > > Oh dear I'm afraid I have gone on and on...apologies Alice for the > > > lenght > > of > > > this, but I guess what I was trying to say in a very round about way > > > is > > (i) > > > culture is not static and is capable of being changed by individuals > > > (ii) women need to be empowred to begin to see the world differently > > > so they contribute meaningfully to processses that shape their lives, > > > including > > the > > > shaping of culture. > > > > > > Until next time > > > > > > Lindiwe Nkutha > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "bakari machumu" > > > To: "lindiwe nkutha" ; "research" > > > ; > > > Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 6:02 PM > > > Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > > > > > > > > > > Hi to all, > > > > This is kind of a tricky situation where one get > > > > confused on a situation like a chick and egg, what > > > > comes first. Can't demacate clearly that, from this > > > > point on, human rights begins. I think if we are to go > > > > on with this culture, custom and tradition thing, then > > > > it should be under equal applications for both Men and Women. But do > > > > women as women know their right in Swaziland, i mean with the > > > > exception of Lindiwe Dlaminimost Swazi women, (its my guess i stand > > > > to be > > > > corrected) agrees with the culture, customs tradition > > > > thing todate. I mean, i can't imagine them continuing parading with > > > > their upper bodies and most of the under part in such neckedness, > > > > that by itself keeps their minds in it.To me that, consititutes > > > > negative cultural practices Now, to solve this thing, i believe on > > > > agressive, consistent awareness creation.How? that is > > > > the question > > > > > > > > Bakari > > > > Dar es Salaam > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- lindiwe nkutha wrote: > > > > > Hi to all > > > > > > > > > > Its an interesting topic isn't it'? the convergence > > > > > of human rights and custom/ culture etc. Ideally > > > > > these should not be mutually exclusive, me thinks. I think also > > > > > that in particular, southern African customs that espouse or > > > > > purport to espouse the principle of Ubuntu should not at all have > > > > > a problem with human rights. (but then again there are a lot > > > > > of things I think that are not necessarily fact). My > > > > > rationale is if the foundation of the concept of > > > > > ubuntu which is said to recognise (albeit > > > > > philosophically) that "I am because you are" is our > > > > > point of departure then who I am is intrinsically > > > > > linked to who you are. If you are free, so am I > > > > > free, if you are oppressed, so am I oppressed, and > > > > > so on and so on. > > > > > > > > > > But because society loves an "other", and > > > > > patriarchy has worked wonders in "securing women's positions as > > > > > others", patriarchy in a heavy disguise as culture has always been > > > > > used as the banner under which abuses of human rights are > > > > > perpetuated. So that the lines were blurred and everytime we said > > > > > "I am because you are" and we were speaking as men, > > > > > it almost felt natural, cultural, in line with dated > > > > > customs to exclude women. In this context the > > > > > speaking ""I am...."' is under patriarchy, not > > > > > considered the speaking female, it is always > > > > > the"speaking male and this gets termed culturally > > > > > acceptable practise, but it is not. > > > > > > > > > > If we move form the ""ubuntu" premise, we begin to > > > > > see that the marginalisation and subjugation of > > > > > women is against the principle said to ground our culture. If we > > > > > accept, and perhaps this is one aspect in our "evolution - > > > > > culturally" that we left behind, the acceptance that the speaking > > > > > "I am..." is both male and female, then within culture we > > > > > begin to see that some of the things that get > > > > > justified as culture are in fact not cultural, but > > > > > are patriarchal practices dressed as culture. > > > > > > > > > > The king says he will not turn away from his > > > > > cultural practices no matter what! Selectively so, > > > > > he sticks to his cultural practices when it suits > > > > > him, because there are benefits for him. Which is > > > > > another thing about culture that is worth > > > > > mentioning. More times than not the most vocal > > > > > voices on the adoption of culture are those that > > > > > have a vested interest in the practice at hand. An > > > > > uncle who needs to "cleanse a widow" will probably > > > > > be the loudest about upholding culture, even though > > > > > they may be silent about other aspects of that same culture. My > > > > > point being that culture can be used to advance or secure people's > > > > > positions. > > > > > > > > > > As I sign off, I need to make it clear that I do not think that > > > > > culture is all bad. No in fact I appreciate the critical position > > > > > that particularly those in countries that were previously > > > > > colonised are grappling with. A project of recovery of that > > > > > which we were before our culture was tempered with, > > > > > balanced against the reality of the now and who we > > > > > define ourselves as presently as well as the > > > > > challenge of self definition into the future of who > > > > > we want to be. And we sit in a challenging > > > > > position. The true test for all of us though (me > > > > > thinks) in assessing what is acceptable as culture > > > > > and what is not acceptable is whether or not the > > > > > precise in any way takes away from an individual > > > > > (and in turn the collective...community ...based on > > > > > Ubuntu) > > > > > ability to enjoy to its full extent the experience > > > > > of being human. > > > > > > > > > > Until later > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: research > > > > > To: egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > > > > > Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 9:47 AM > > > > > Subject: [Egemtraining] This week's discussion > > > > > topic: Lets Talk!!! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear All > > > > > > > > > > I am sure most of you have been itching to receive > > > > > the first discussion topic and are ready to roll!!! > > > > > I have been keenly waiting to start as weel. Below > > > > > is the discussion topic and the question at the end > > > > > of the piece. Please remember not to make your contribution too > > > > > long. Just comment as briefly as possible to give others a chance > > > > > to also share their opinions. Also remember to "reply to all" so > > > > > that you do not share your opinion just with me but with > > > > > all in the network. Happy reading and looking > > > > > forward to hearing your opinions!!! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Where does culture start and stop, and individual rights begin? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am sure most of us are aware of the > > > > > controversial ongoing court case in Swaziland > > > > > between a mother (Lindiwe Dlamini) and the King (his > > > > > aides) concerning the abduction of an > > > > > 18-year-old-child (Zena) Mahlangu for "royal > > > > > duties". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For those who have not been following the case, > > > > > the King (who is being sued through his aides, is > > > > > alleged to have abducted the child from school > > > > > without her mother's knowledge and consent. Lindiwe > > > > > wants her child to be returned to her custody and > > > > > the King has been arguing that the child is being > > > > > kept at the Royal Guest House to be prepared to be > > > > > the King's 10th wife. The King was quoted as saying > > > > > at a press conference, "The whole issue has been > > > > > blown out of proportion by those who took advantage > > > > > of trying to destroy our customs and traditions". > > > > > People may say whatever they want to sy but I vow to > > > > > stick to our traditions, no matter what the times > > > > > are. I can be blamed left and right, but the fact of > > > > > the matter is that it is our culture that I should > > > > > marry many wives as I can. I cannot allow myself to > > > > > be forced to follow Western culture". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The controversy is generally seen as a "clash > > > > > between customs and modernity". According to custom, > > > > > Mswati may choose a new wife each year from among > > > > > the thousands of virgins who attend the annual reed > > > > > dance". Ironically Mswati last year revived a > > > > > traditional ban on sex with underage girls to combat > > > > > HIV/AIDS. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > After protests for the abduction of Zena and two > > > > > other girls, the King fined himself a cow for > > > > > breaking his own royal decree. (BBC News). He was > > > > > also quoted as saying that he was prepared to pay > > > > > cows as fines for selecting the three girls. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Zena's mother is challenging the alleged > > > > > traditional grabbing of her daughter on the grounds > > > > > that she was not consulted, did not consent and her > > > > > child has been taken out of school and therefore was > > > > > abducted. The King's courtiers (aides) have been > > > > > arguing that the girl was not abducted but went > > > > > willingly. "Everything was arranged between the King > > > > > and the girl and our job was just to pick her at the > > > > > agreed spot. No force was applied". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Human rights activists have been arguing that > > > > > "traditionalists should stop "raping" girls in the > > > > > name of culture, while royals have been insisting > > > > > that Mswati's selection of Zena to be his bride is a > > > > > traditional issue that must be resolved through > > > > > Swazi customs and culture. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gender and human rights activists have noted that > > > > > Zena is a minor child (18 years) and the abduction > > > > > is a criminal offence in that it violates === message truncated === --------------------------------- Get a bigger mailbox -- choose a size that fits your needs. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.sn.apc.org/pipermail/egemtraining/attachments/20021120/4771c294/attachment.html From jbwmolemogi at yahoo.com Wed Nov 20 10:35:36 2002 From: jbwmolemogi at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?jullian=20molemogi?=) Date: Tue Feb 27 14:10:57 2007 Subject: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity In-Reply-To: <00b401c28fe0$202e32a0$0e00a8c0@ALICEK> Message-ID: <20021120083536.80414.qmail@web14806.mail.yahoo.com> Dear all having just joined in the discussion i want to agree in all honesty with maggie that indeed there is a serious clash between human rights and culture. zena represents many other girls who have fallen victims to cultural practices that perpetuate total disregard for women/girls human rights. This incident is a mirror for swazi women in particular to look thrugh themselves and question some of the cultural practices which interestingly they are at the forefront in enforcing. it can not be over emphasised that strong legal frameworks needs to be put in place as watchdogs for culprits who dress "culture" in persuit of their evil ends.a fair and uniform practice calls for a total review and reform of laws to match human rights and that is exactly what the women' organisations in this region are fighting for. whatever way we look at it this is a problem so deep rootedthat it will stay with us for a longer time for as long as the youngsters grow up internalizing the cultural norms that reinforce sexrole stereotyping. jullian research wrote:Dear All Sorry, i just felt I had to say something again. I think Jennifer and Maggie's contributions here again raise an importnat point, which i think I alluded to in my previous contribution about legal frameworks and constitutional provisions in the region, and this is precisely that most countries in the region have not reformed their laws and legal frameworks to reconcile them with international Human Rights instruments that they have acceded to or ratified. Maybe the question then should be do we reform the laws and frameworks to match international instruments or do we adapt and reform international instruments to fit our frameworks?? And I think this is especially important when we talk gender equality in Southern Africa, where the whole arena of decision-making is generally dominated by men! What do others think? Lets unpack it!!!! Alice ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jennifer Joni" To: "Maggie McDonough" ; "research" ; Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 4:52 PM Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > Maggie, just a pint of clarity. What I was trying to say is that we get > caught up in two situations. One is the human rights debate, which I said > is meant to determine which of our cultural values should remain, that is > does the particular custom /practice pass the constitutional scrutiny. > Second, is then the issue about western values that sometimes get used to > determine which cultural values should remain. I am not at all suggesting > an interrelation between the two concepts. > Human rights are the best thing that has ever happened to planet earth, the > question is: is using the human rights stick or constitutional arguments > relevant in I think we are all trying to uncover here? > The JJ > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Maggie McDonough > To: 'Jennifer Joni' ; research > ; > Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 4:37 PM > Subject: RE: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > > > > Hello again, > > > > I think Jennifer raised some interesting points here, but there is one > point > > in particular that I would like to address -- that is, the concept of > human > > rights being determined by western/colonial values. I actually do not > > accept that human rights is a uniquely western concept. Human rights have > > been invoked by people throughout the world, both historically and > > contemporaneously. Human rights formed the basis of the Non-cooperation > > Movement AGAINST the British in colonial India. Human rights have formed > > the basis against the authoritarian and military regimes of Europe and > > Eurasia. Mass movements (e.g. for gender equality, environmental > > protection, etc) have gained untold strength and sustenance from human > > rights issues. The list can go on. > > > > Anyway, just wanted to add my two cents on this point. > > > > Maggie > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Jennifer Joni [mailto:jonij@law.wits.ac.za] > > Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 6:56 AM > > To: research; egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > > Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > > > > > > maqabane > > > > Interesting subject, culture and people wanting to use culture to do their > > horrendous, violent deeds. There are a few issues that i always grapple > > with when confronted with these questions, which I honestly believe go to > > the root of who we are; I mean those of us who are expected to respect our > > culture. At what point does culture stop being that which we think should > be > > practiced? Is this determined by the western values that have been > > instilled in us since colonialism? Do we (especially in South Africa) say > > that we now have a Constitution which says that conduct that is in not in > > line with the vales in the Constitution, is unconstitutional. Those > values > > being human dignity, equality and blah blah blah. The reason I am raising > > these concerns emanates from a statement made at the Racism Conference, > > where one woman stated that we should be cautious of attempts by the other > > -who is insistent and is forcing the people to abrogate their culture > > because they think it is oppressive. The yardstick being the western > > culture. I am not condoning what Moswati is doing but I would like to know > > what processes need to be put in place to challenge abusive, insulting > > practices. Do we for example take stock of all those practices that we > think > > perpetuate violence against women? and then decide and agree how we are > > going to change them? Who does this for us? In my Xhosa culture there are > > indeed practices that are demeaning, and cause a lot of hardship for > women. > > How do we attend to this. > > > > Salani ngoxolo > > The JJ > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: lindiwe nkutha > > To: research ; > > > Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 10:59 AM > > Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > > > > > > > Hi again > > > > > > Interestingly as we talk about culture we begin to challaenge our own > > > beliefs on what constitutes culture as well as how we understand the > > > workings of it. Critical to this realisation is our understanding and > > > appreciation of how culture is passed on from generation to > > > generation, entrenching positions of indivduals and setting precedents > > > that future genarations will follow often times unquestioned. > > > > > > Bakari raises properly the predicament of chicken and egg where > > > culture is concerned, and so we ask, in the formation of society and > > > the negotiation > > of > > > indivual identities which takes more precedent, the indivual make up > > > of members of communities or the culture into which they are born? And > > > this > > is > > > the real quanandram! > > > > > > If we agree that culture exists for amongst other reasons as a > > > tempalte on which our own indivual identities are formed, we agree > > > also that gender roles are difined in culture; the man as hunter, > > > gatherer and aggressor > > and > > > woman as surbesvient receipient of caring, nurtiring etc etc are > > entrenched > > > also in culture (and not just African cultures, just about all > > > cultures in fact). So that we base our understanding of the situation > > > in Swaziland on this premise, and begin to realise that from > > > generation to generation, > > women > > > in Swaziland would gather for the reed dance, half naked or almost > > entirely > > > completely naked as Bakari says, is no co-incidence, it is done > > > because it is a practice that fore ancestors engaged in as part of > > > their cultural expression ( to what end now, is what we have to > > > grapple with) . > > > > > > As a by the way as on my way to my point, I need to say, Swazi people > > > and in fact most cultures in Southern Africa did not wear anything > > > much before we were introduced to a western way of dressing...part of > > > our colonisation...essentially "nudity" was for us never a tabooo. The > > > comment on nudity reflects how the western way of being have > > > influenced how we see ourselves. > > > > > > Having said that and getting back on course to my point, I need to > > > repeat what I said yesterday, which Columbus picked up on also, that > > > "customs and culture can be used to further gains of individuals". The > > > genesis of the reed dance a Swazi friend informs me, was for the > > > Queen mother, never a parade for the king to choose his wives. It was > > > for the queen mother to choose for herself maidens that would help her > > > in her homestead . The > > "king" > > > has now appropriated this tradition for himself and has turned it into > > > a peep show for himself (re-entrenching women's positions as objects > > > of gaze...for the titilation of his own self). Is it then the practice > > > itself that is wrong or is the "reason" for its continuance that is > > > oppressive? > > and > > > this is the point of this discussion I mantain. Bakari says women in > > > Swaziland ecxept for my namesake Dlamini agree with the culture and > > customs. > > > This statement is not entirely wrong, because if they did not no > > > woman would send their daughters to the reed dance, and as > > > westernised as we > > have > > > become mothers in Swaziland would ensure that if their daughters went > > > they were fully clothed and so on and so on. > > > > > > But why do women continue to send their children? Because women are in > > most > > > cases the custodians of culture, and if we all agree that culture in > > > the wrong hands can be oppressive we begin to appreciate how women > > > remaining oblivious to their oppression can serve the interests of > > > those who seek to keep them oppressed. And right here is where I agree > > > fully with Bakari, knowldge is power! Knowledge and information on the > > > basis of which change can be negotiated both at an individual and > > > community level has been > > witheld > > > for far too long from women. Unless and until women conscientize one > > another > > > or are conscientized to a different reality, such abuses as we see in > > > Swaziland will continue. Because culture is not static, and is ever > > > changing, what will begin to happen is that together, as women and > > > men we will begin to build a new culture that defines aptly who we > > > want to be. Unless that happens (not only in Swaziland) but the world > > > over women will appear and in fact may just continue to collude in > > > their own oppression. > > > > > > Oh dear I'm afraid I have gone on and on...apologies Alice for the > > > lenght > > of > > > this, but I guess what I was trying to say in a very round about way > > > is > > (i) > > > culture is not static and is capable of being changed by individuals > > > (ii) women need to be empowred to begin to see the world differently > > > so they contribute meaningfully to processses that shape their lives, > > > including > > the > > > shaping of culture. > > > > > > Until next time > > > > > > Lindiwe Nkutha > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "bakari machumu" > > > To: "lindiwe nkutha" ; "research" > > > ; > > > Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 6:02 PM > > > Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > > > > > > > > > > Hi to all, > > > > This is kind of a tricky situation where one get > > > > confused on a situation like a chick and egg, what > > > > comes first. Can't demacate clearly that, from this > > > > point on, human rights begins. I think if we are to go > > > > on with this culture, custom and tradition thing, then > > > > it should be under equal applications for both Men and Women. But do > > > > women as women know their right in Swaziland, i mean with the > > > > exception of Lindiwe Dlaminimost Swazi women, (its my guess i stand > > > > to be > > > > corrected) agrees with the culture, customs tradition > > > > thing todate. I mean, i can't imagine them continuing parading with > > > > their upper bodies and most of the under part in such neckedness, > > > > that by itself keeps their minds in it.To me that, consititutes > > > > negative cultural practices Now, to solve this thing, i believe on > > > > agressive, consistent awareness creation.How? that is > > > > the question > > > > > > > > Bakari > > > > Dar es Salaam > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- lindiwe nkutha wrote: > > > > > Hi to all > > > > > > > > > > Its an interesting topic isn't it'? the convergence > > > > > of human rights and custom/ culture etc. Ideally > > > > > these should not be mutually exclusive, me thinks. I think also > > > > > that in particular, southern African customs that espouse or > > > > > purport to espouse the principle of Ubuntu should not at all have > > > > > a problem with human rights. (but then again there are a lot > > > > > of things I think that are not necessarily fact). My > > > > > rationale is if the foundation of the concept of > > > > > ubuntu which is said to recognise (albeit > > > > > philosophically) that "I am because you are" is our > > > > > point of departure then who I am is intrinsically > > > > > linked to who you are. If you are free, so am I > > > > > free, if you are oppressed, so am I oppressed, and > > > > > so on and so on. > > > > > > > > > > But because society loves an "other", and > > > > > patriarchy has worked wonders in "securing women's positions as > > > > > others", patriarchy in a heavy disguise as culture has always been > > > > > used as the banner under which abuses of human rights are > > > > > perpetuated. So that the lines were blurred and everytime we said > > > > > "I am because you are" and we were speaking as men, > > > > > it almost felt natural, cultural, in line with dated > > > > > customs to exclude women. In this context the > > > > > speaking ""I am...."' is under patriarchy, not > > > > > considered the speaking female, it is always > > > > > the"speaking male and this gets termed culturally > > > > > acceptable practise, but it is not. > > > > > > > > > > If we move form the ""ubuntu" premise, we begin to > > > > > see that the marginalisation and subjugation of > > > > > women is against the principle said to ground our culture. If we > > > > > accept, and perhaps this is one aspect in our "evolution - > > > > > culturally" that we left behind, the acceptance that the speaking > > > > > "I am..." is both male and female, then within culture we > > > > > begin to see that some of the things that get > > > > > justified as culture are in fact not cultural, but > > > > > are patriarchal practices dressed as culture. > > > > > > > > > > The king says he will not turn away from his > > > > > cultural practices no matter what! Selectively so, > > > > > he sticks to his cultural practices when it suits > > > > > him, because there are benefits for him. Which is > > > > > another thing about culture that is worth > > > > > mentioning. More times than not the most vocal > > > > > voices on the adoption of culture are those that > > > > > have a vested interest in the practice at hand. An > > > > > uncle who needs to "cleanse a widow" will probably > > > > > be the loudest about upholding culture, even though > > > > > they may be silent about other aspects of that same culture. My > > > > > point being that culture can be used to advance or secure people's > > > > > positions. > > > > > > > > > > As I sign off, I need to make it clear that I do not think that > > > > > culture is all bad. No in fact I appreciate the critical position > > > > > that particularly those in countries that were previously > > > > > colonised are grappling with. A project of recovery of that > > > > > which we were before our culture was tempered with, > > > > > balanced against the reality of the now and who we > > > > > define ourselves as presently as well as the > > > > > challenge of self definition into the future of who > > > > > we want to be. And we sit in a challenging > > > > > position. The true test for all of us though (me > > > > > thinks) in assessing what is acceptable as culture > > > > > and what is not acceptable is whether or not the > > > > > precise in any way takes away from an individual > > > > > (and in turn the collective...community ...based on > > > > > Ubuntu) > > > > > ability to enjoy to its full extent the experience > > > > > of being human. > > > > > > > > > > Until later > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: research > > > > > To: egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > > > > > Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 9:47 AM > > > > > Subject: [Egemtraining] This week's discussion > > > > > topic: Lets Talk!!! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear All > > > > > > > > > > I am sure most of you have been itching to receive > > > > > the first discussion topic and are ready to roll!!! > > > > > I have been keenly waiting to start as weel. Below > > > > > is the discussion topic and the question at the end > > > > > of the piece. Please remember not to make your contribution too > > > > > long. Just comment as briefly as possible to give others a chance > > > > > to also share their opinions. Also remember to "reply to all" so > > > > > that you do not share your opinion just with me but with > > > > > all in the network. Happy reading and looking > > > > > forward to hearing your opinions!!! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Where does culture start and stop, and individual rights begin? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am sure most of us are aware of the > > > > > controversial ongoing court case in Swaziland > > > > > between a mother (Lindiwe Dlamini) and the King (his > > > > > aides) concerning the abduction of an > > > > > 18-year-old-child (Zena) Mahlangu for "royal > > > > > duties". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For those who have not been following the case, > > > > > the King (who is being sued through his aides, is > > > > > alleged to have abducted the child from school > > > > > without her mother's knowledge and consent. Lindiwe > > > > > wants her child to be returned to her custody and > > > > > the King has been arguing that the child is being > > > > > kept at the Royal Guest House to be prepared to be > > > > > the King's 10th wife. The King was quoted as saying > > > > > at a press conference, "The whole issue has been > > > > > blown out of proportion by those who took advantage > > > > > of trying to destroy our customs and traditions". > > > > > People may say whatever they want to sy but I vow to > > > > > stick to our traditions, no matter what the times > > > > > are. I can be blamed left and right, but the fact of > > > > > the matter is that it is our culture that I should > > > > > marry many wives as I can. I cannot allow myself to > > > > > be forced to follow Western culture". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The controversy is generally seen as a "clash > > > > > between customs and modernity". According to custom, > > > > > Mswati may choose a new wife each year from among > > > > > the thousands of virgins who attend the annual reed > > > > > dance". Ironically Mswati last year revived a > > > > > traditional ban on sex with underage girls to combat > > > > > HIV/AIDS. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > After protests for the abduction of Zena and two > > > > > other girls, the King fined himself a cow for > > > > > breaking his own royal decree. (BBC News). He was > > > > > also quoted as saying that he was prepared to pay > > > > > cows as fines for selecting the three girls. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Zena's mother is challenging the alleged > > > > > traditional grabbing of her daughter on the grounds > > > > > that she was not consulted, did not consent and her > > > > > child has been taken out of school and therefore was > > > > > abducted. The King's courtiers (aides) have been > > > > > arguing that the girl was not abducted but went > > > > > willingly. "Everything was arranged between the King > > > > > and the girl and our job was just to pick her at the > > > > > agreed spot. No force was applied". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Human rights activists have been arguing that > > > > > "traditionalists should stop "raping" girls in the > > > > > name of culture, while royals have been insisting > > > > > that Mswati's selection of Zena to be his bride is a > > > > > traditional issue that must be resolved through > > > > > Swazi customs and culture. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gender and human rights activists have noted that > > > > > Zena is a minor child (18 years) and the abduction > > > > > is a criminal offence in that it violates === message truncated === --------------------------------- Get a bigger mailbox -- choose a size that fits your needs. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.sn.apc.org/pipermail/egemtraining/attachments/20021120/46190933/attachment.htm From Kudzaishe at mwengo.org.zw Wed Nov 20 14:35:12 2002 From: Kudzaishe at mwengo.org.zw (Kudzaishe) Date: Tue Feb 27 14:10:57 2007 Subject: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity Message-ID: <30C1EF84C3B1D611AE8A008048D7AA3D02849C@SERVER> Dear All Just some comments on what has been brought up so far. In terms of the proposal to change laws, I admit that changing laws is an important step in the modification of the status quo. However, it should not be viewed as the be end all. We have to work on changing the attitudes of all those people (both men and women) who are involved in the oppression of women. This is not an easy task as it means a complete reversal of belief systems, practices and positions that have been held since time immemorial. Furthermore, I have noticed that there have been a number of comments that Swaziland is a signatory to a child rights bill as well as a women's rights bill. If the case is like in Zimbabwe, which I suspect it might be, government can be a signatory of all the conventions under the sky, which call for the protection of its citizens. However, if these bills are not integrated into the law and constitution of the country, they are useless. This is because if for example customary laws are an integral part of the constitution of the country, the bills are overridden by the constitution of the country. This is called the protection of the sovereignty of the state. I also feel that it is only until the decision making bodies are staffed by enlightened women that progress can be made towards the advancement of women's rights the world over. I stress enlightened because we can have 90% of women in the decision making frameworks who might be the custodians of culture . We thus need women who fully understand that the rights of women should be protected for the advancement of the society. Just on a final point as my contribution is getting too long, I feel that it is a bit unfair to state that the Swazi women condone the king's action as they send their daughters to the reed dance. What should be examined is the root of the cultural practice and why it is valued to that extent and also the symbolism of the whole concept. If I am not mistaken only virgins take part in the reed dance and I suppose if a girl does not take part in the dance she will be stigmatised (I stand to be corrected on this). Therefore as we all know most families want to be viewed in the best possible light and thus they are more or less forced to take part in the activities. The first step might be for a campaign, in which all (or most) of the Swazi people take part and refuse to take participate in the ceremony i.e. no participants, no ceremony. This could be a first step towards the modification/ getting rid of this ceremony. I conclude with a question, we hear that three girls have been taken by the king, what is the fate so far of the other two girls? Thanks for bearing with me Kudzai -----Original Message----- From: research [SMTP:research@genderlinks.org.za] Sent: 19 November 2002 17:27 To: Jennifer Joni; Maggie McDonough; egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity Dear All Sorry, i just felt I had to say something again. I think Jennifer and Maggie's contributions here again raise an importnat point, which i think I alluded to in my previous contribution about legal frameworks and constitutional provisions in the region, and this is precisely that most countries in the region have not reformed their laws and legal frameworks to reconcile them with international Human Rights instruments that they have acceded to or ratified. Maybe the question then should be do we reform the laws and frameworks to match international instruments or do we adapt and reform international instruments to fit our frameworks?? And I think this is especially important when we talk gender equality in Southern Africa, where the whole arena of decision-making is generally dominated by men! What do others think? Lets unpack it!!!! Alice ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jennifer Joni" To: "Maggie McDonough" ; "research" ; Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 4:52 PM Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > Maggie, just a pint of clarity. What I was trying to say is that we get > caught up in two situations. One is the human rights debate, which I said > is meant to determine which of our cultural values should remain, that is > does the particular custom /practice pass the constitutional scrutiny. > Second, is then the issue about western values that sometimes get used to > determine which cultural values should remain. I am not at all suggesting > an interrelation between the two concepts. > Human rights are the best thing that has ever happened to planet earth, the > question is: is using the human rights stick or constitutional arguments > relevant in I think we are all trying to uncover here? > The JJ > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Maggie McDonough > To: 'Jennifer Joni' ; research > ; > Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 4:37 PM > Subject: RE: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > > > > Hello again, > > > > I think Jennifer raised some interesting points here, but there is one > point > > in particular that I would like to address -- that is, the concept of > human > > rights being determined by western/colonial values. I actually do not > > accept that human rights is a uniquely western concept. Human rights have > > been invoked by people throughout the world, both historically and > > contemporaneously. Human rights formed the basis of the Non-cooperation > > Movement AGAINST the British in colonial India. Human rights have formed > > the basis against the authoritarian and military regimes of Europe and > > Eurasia. Mass movements (e.g. for gender equality, environmental > > protection, etc) have gained untold strength and sustenance from human > > rights issues. The list can go on. > > > > Anyway, just wanted to add my two cents on this point. > > > > Maggie > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Jennifer Joni [mailto:jonij@law.wits.ac.za] > > Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 6:56 AM > > To: research; egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > > Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > > > > > > maqabane > > > > Interesting subject, culture and people wanting to use culture to do their > > horrendous, violent deeds. There are a few issues that i always grapple > > with when confronted with these questions, which I honestly believe go to > > the root of who we are; I mean those of us who are expected to respect our > > culture. At what point does culture stop being that which we think should > be > > practiced? Is this determined by the western values that have been > > instilled in us since colonialism? Do we (especially in South Africa) say > > that we now have a Constitution which says that conduct that is in not in > > line with the vales in the Constitution, is unconstitutional. Those > values > > being human dignity, equality and blah blah blah. The reason I am raising > > these concerns emanates from a statement made at the Racism Conference, > > where one woman stated that we should be cautious of attempts by the other > > -who is insistent and is forcing the people to abrogate their culture > > because they think it is oppressive. The yardstick being the western > > culture. I am not condoning what Moswati is doing but I would like to know > > what processes need to be put in place to challenge abusive, insulting > > practices. Do we for example take stock of all those practices that we > think > > perpetuate violence against women? and then decide and agree how we are > > going to change them? Who does this for us? In my Xhosa culture there are > > indeed practices that are demeaning, and cause a lot of hardship for > women. > > How do we attend to this. > > > > Salani ngoxolo > > The JJ > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: lindiwe nkutha > > To: research ; > > > Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 10:59 AM > > Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > > > > > > > Hi again > > > > > > Interestingly as we talk about culture we begin to challaenge our own > > > beliefs on what constitutes culture as well as how we understand the > > > workings of it. Critical to this realisation is our understanding and > > > appreciation of how culture is passed on from generation to > > > generation, entrenching positions of indivduals and setting precedents > > > that future genarations will follow often times unquestioned. > > > > > > Bakari raises properly the predicament of chicken and egg where > > > culture is concerned, and so we ask, in the formation of society and > > > the negotiation > > of > > > indivual identities which takes more precedent, the indivual make up > > > of members of communities or the culture into which they are born? And > > > this > > is > > > the real quanandram! > > > > > > If we agree that culture exists for amongst other reasons as a > > > tempalte on which our own indivual identities are formed, we agree > > > also that gender roles are difined in culture; the man as hunter, > > > gatherer and aggressor > > and > > > woman as surbesvient receipient of caring, nurtiring etc etc are > > entrenched > > > also in culture (and not just African cultures, just about all > > > cultures in fact). So that we base our understanding of the situation > > > in Swaziland on this premise, and begin to realise that from > > > generation to generation, > > women > > > in Swaziland would gather for the reed dance, half naked or almost > > entirely > > > completely naked as Bakari says, is no co-incidence, it is done > > > because it is a practice that fore ancestors engaged in as part of > > > their cultural expression ( to what end now, is what we have to > > > grapple with) . > > > > > > As a by the way as on my way to my point, I need to say, Swazi people > > > and in fact most cultures in Southern Africa did not wear anything > > > much before we were introduced to a western way of dressing...part of > > > our colonisation...essentially "nudity" was for us never a tabooo. The > > > comment on nudity reflects how the western way of being have > > > influenced how we see ourselves. > > > > > > Having said that and getting back on course to my point, I need to > > > repeat what I said yesterday, which Columbus picked up on also, that > > > "customs and culture can be used to further gains of individuals". The > > > genesis of the reed dance a Swazi friend informs me, was for the > > > Queen mother, never a parade for the king to choose his wives. It was > > > for the queen mother to choose for herself maidens that would help her > > > in her homestead . The > > "king" > > > has now appropriated this tradition for himself and has turned it into > > > a peep show for himself (re-entrenching women's positions as objects > > > of gaze...for the titilation of his own self). Is it then the practice > > > itself that is wrong or is the "reason" for its continuance that is > > > oppressive? > > and > > > this is the point of this discussion I mantain. Bakari says women in > > > Swaziland ecxept for my namesake Dlamini agree with the culture and > > customs. > > > This statement is not entirely wrong, because if they did not no > > > woman would send their daughters to the reed dance, and as > > > westernised as we > > have > > > become mothers in Swaziland would ensure that if their daughters went > > > they were fully clothed and so on and so on. > > > > > > But why do women continue to send their children? Because women are in > > most > > > cases the custodians of culture, and if we all agree that culture in > > > the wrong hands can be oppressive we begin to appreciate how women > > > remaining oblivious to their oppression can serve the interests of > > > those who seek to keep them oppressed. And right here is where I agree > > > fully with Bakari, knowldge is power! Knowledge and information on the > > > basis of which change can be negotiated both at an individual and > > > community level has been > > witheld > > > for far too long from women. Unless and until women conscientize one > > another > > > or are conscientized to a different reality, such abuses as we see in > > > Swaziland will continue. Because culture is not static, and is ever > > > changing, what will begin to happen is that together, as women and > > > men we will begin to build a new culture that defines aptly who we > > > want to be. Unless that happens (not only in Swaziland) but the world > > > over women will appear and in fact may just continue to collude in > > > their own oppression. > > > > > > Oh dear I'm afraid I have gone on and on...apologies Alice for the > > > lenght > > of > > > this, but I guess what I was trying to say in a very round about way > > > is > > (i) > > > culture is not static and is capable of being changed by individuals > > > (ii) women need to be empowred to begin to see the world differently > > > so they contribute meaningfully to processses that shape their lives, > > > including > > the > > > shaping of culture. > > > > > > Until next time > > > > > > Lindiwe Nkutha > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "bakari machumu" > > > To: "lindiwe nkutha" ; "research" > > > ; > > > Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 6:02 PM > > > Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > > > > > > > > > > Hi to all, > > > > This is kind of a tricky situation where one get > > > > confused on a situation like a chick and egg, what > > > > comes first. Can't demacate clearly that, from this > > > > point on, human rights begins. I think if we are to go > > > > on with this culture, custom and tradition thing, then > > > > it should be under equal applications for both Men and Women. But do > > > > women as women know their right in Swaziland, i mean with the > > > > exception of Lindiwe Dlaminimost Swazi women, (its my guess i stand > > > > to be > > > > corrected) agrees with the culture, customs tradition > > > > thing todate. I mean, i can't imagine them continuing parading with > > > > their upper bodies and most of the under part in such neckedness, > > > > that by itself keeps their minds in it.To me that, consititutes > > > > negative cultural practices Now, to solve this thing, i believe on > > > > agressive, consistent awareness creation.How? that is > > > > the question > > > > > > > > Bakari > > > > Dar es Salaam > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- lindiwe nkutha wrote: > > > > > Hi to all > > > > > > > > > > Its an interesting topic isn't it'? the convergence > > > > > of human rights and custom/ culture etc. Ideally > > > > > these should not be mutually exclusive, me thinks. I think also > > > > > that in particular, southern African customs that espouse or > > > > > purport to espouse the principle of Ubuntu should not at all have > > > > > a problem with human rights. (but then again there are a lot > > > > > of things I think that are not necessarily fact). My > > > > > rationale is if the foundation of the concept of > > > > > ubuntu which is said to recognise (albeit > > > > > philosophically) that "I am because you are" is our > > > > > point of departure then who I am is intrinsically > > > > > linked to who you are. If you are free, so am I > > > > > free, if you are oppressed, so am I oppressed, and > > > > > so on and so on. > > > > > > > > > > But because society loves an "other", and > > > > > patriarchy has worked wonders in "securing women's positions as > > > > > others", patriarchy in a heavy disguise as culture has always been > > > > > used as the banner under which abuses of human rights are > > > > > perpetuated. So that the lines were blurred and everytime we said > > > > > "I am because you are" and we were speaking as men, > > > > > it almost felt natural, cultural, in line with dated > > > > > customs to exclude women. In this context the > > > > > speaking ""I am...."' is under patriarchy, not > > > > > considered the speaking female, it is always > > > > > the"speaking male and this gets termed culturally > > > > > acceptable practise, but it is not. > > > > > > > > > > If we move form the ""ubuntu" premise, we begin to > > > > > see that the marginalisation and subjugation of > > > > > women is against the principle said to ground our culture. If we > > > > > accept, and perhaps this is one aspect in our "evolution - > > > > > culturally" that we left behind, the acceptance that the speaking > > > > > "I am..." is both male and female, then within culture we > > > > > begin to see that some of the things that get > > > > > justified as culture are in fact not cultural, but > > > > > are patriarchal practices dressed as culture. > > > > > > > > > > The king says he will not turn away from his > > > > > cultural practices no matter what! Selectively so, > > > > > he sticks to his cultural practices when it suits > > > > > him, because there are benefits for him. Which is > > > > > another thing about culture that is worth > > > > > mentioning. More times than not the most vocal > > > > > voices on the adoption of culture are those that > > > > > have a vested interest in the practice at hand. An > > > > > uncle who needs to "cleanse a widow" will probably > > > > > be the loudest about upholding culture, even though > > > > > they may be silent about other aspects of that same culture. My > > > > > point being that culture can be used to advance or secure people's > > > > > positions. > > > > > > > > > > As I sign off, I need to make it clear that I do not think that > > > > > culture is all bad. No in fact I appreciate the critical position > > > > > that particularly those in countries that were previously > > > > > colonised are grappling with. A project of recovery of that > > > > > which we were before our culture was tempered with, > > > > > balanced against the reality of the now and who we > > > > > define ourselves as presently as well as the > > > > > challenge of self definition into the future of who > > > > > we want to be. And we sit in a challenging > > > > > position. The true test for all of us though (me > > > > > thinks) in assessing what is acceptable as culture > > > > > and what is not acceptable is whether or not the > > > > > precise in any way takes away from an individual > > > > > (and in turn the collective...community ...based on > > > > > Ubuntu) > > > > > ability to enjoy to its full extent the experience > > > > > of being human. > > > > > > > > > > Until later > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: research > > > > > To: egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > > > > > Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 9:47 AM > > > > > Subject: [Egemtraining] This week's discussion > > > > > topic: Lets Talk!!! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear All > > > > > > > > > > I am sure most of you have been itching to receive > > > > > the first discussion topic and are ready to roll!!! > > > > > I have been keenly waiting to start as weel. Below > > > > > is the discussion topic and the question at the end > > > > > of the piece. Please remember not to make your contribution too > > > > > long. Just comment as briefly as possible to give others a chance > > > > > to also share their opinions. Also remember to "reply to all" so > > > > > that you do not share your opinion just with me but with > > > > > all in the network. Happy reading and looking > > > > > forward to hearing your opinions!!! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Where does culture start and stop, and individual rights begin? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am sure most of us are aware of the > > > > > controversial ongoing court case in Swaziland > > > > > between a mother (Lindiwe Dlamini) and the King (his > > > > > aides) concerning the abduction of an > > > > > 18-year-old-child (Zena) Mahlangu for "royal > > > > > duties". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For those who have not been following the case, > > > > > the King (who is being sued through his aides, is > > > > > alleged to have abducted the child from school > > > > > without her mother's knowledge and consent. Lindiwe > > > > > wants her child to be returned to her custody and > > > > > the King has been arguing that the child is being > > > > > kept at the Royal Guest House to be prepared to be > > > > > the King's 10th wife. The King was quoted as saying > > > > > at a press conference, "The whole issue has been > > > > > blown out of proportion by those who took advantage > > > > > of trying to destroy our customs and traditions". > > > > > People may say whatever they want to sy but I vow to > > > > > stick to our traditions, no matter what the times > > > > > are. I can be blamed left and right, but the fact of > > > > > the matter is that it is our culture that I should > > > > > marry many wives as I can. I cannot allow myself to > > > > > be forced to follow Western culture". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The controversy is generally seen as a "clash > > > > > between customs and modernity". According to custom, > > > > > Mswati may choose a new wife each year from among > > > > > the thousands of virgins who attend the annual reed > > > > > dance". Ironically Mswati last year revived a > > > > > traditional ban on sex with underage girls to combat > > > > > HIV/AIDS. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > After protests for the abduction of Zena and two > > > > > other girls, the King fined himself a cow for > > > > > breaking his own royal decree. (BBC News). He was > > > > > also quoted as saying that he was prepared to pay > > > > > cows as fines for selecting the three girls. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Zena's mother is challenging the alleged > > > > > traditional grabbing of her daughter on the grounds > > > > > that she was not consulted, did not consent and her > > > > > child has been taken out of school and therefore was > > > > > abducted. The King's courtiers (aides) have been > > > > > arguing that the girl was not abducted but went > > > > > willingly. "Everything was arranged between the King > > > > > and the girl and our job was just to pick her at the > > > > > agreed spot. No force was applied". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Human rights activists have been arguing that > > > > > "traditionalists should stop "raping" girls in the > > > > > name of culture, while royals have been insisting > > > > > that Mswati's selection of Zena to be his bride is a > > > > > traditional issue that must be resolved through > > > > > Swazi customs and culture. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gender and human rights activists have noted that > > > > > Zena is a minor child (18 years) and the abduction > > > > > is a criminal offence in that it violates > > > > > > > > > > 1) Lindiwe Dlamini's rights to custody and > > > > > guardianship over her minor child and also that; > > > > > > > > > > 2) Zena's rights to liberty, freedom of movement, > > > > > education, choice of marriage partner, right to be a > > > > > child and bodily integrity. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Most of us are, I am sure, aware that Swaziland is > > > > > signatory to the SADC Declaration on Gender and > > > > > Development which commits it in article (vii) to, > > > > > among other things, protecting the human rights of > > > > > women and children, which raises a number of > > > > > concerns regarding this case. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Question for Discussion > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1) Where should culture, custom and tradition > > > > > stop and individual human rights begin, to ensure > > > > > the > > > > === message truncated === > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > > Everything you'll ever need on one web page > > > > from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts > > > > http://uk.my.yahoo.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Egemtraining mailing list > > > > Egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > > > > http://lists.sn.apc.org/mailman/listinfo/egemtraining > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Egemtraining mailing list > > > Egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > > > http://lists.sn.apc.org/mailman/listinfo/egemtraining > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Egemtraining mailing list > > Egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > > http://lists.sn.apc.org/mailman/listinfo/egemtraining > > _______________________________________________ > > Egemtraining mailing list > > Egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > > http://lists.sn.apc.org/mailman/listinfo/egemtraining > > > _______________________________________________ Egemtraining mailing list Egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org http://lists.sn.apc.org/mailman/listinfo/egemtraining From bmachumu at yahoo.com Wed Nov 20 17:32:13 2002 From: bmachumu at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?bakari=20machumu?=) Date: Tue Feb 27 14:10:58 2007 Subject: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity In-Reply-To: <00a101c28fdc$e84e0700$0e00a8c0@ALICEK> Message-ID: <20021120153213.33839.qmail@web40906.mail.yahoo.com> Dear All, Alice is raising yet another face of our leaders when she says the King signed the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, and SADC's Declaration on Gender and Development which ofcourse oblige him to protect the rights of children. But it is on of those things some of our leaders are just forced to sign when they are those summits, however, they always never live to it. An not suprised by the way things are now, coz this is reflected in the topic in discussion. In short it is the lack of proper prioritisation (for the public interest), no wonder a leader vows spend $ 40 million on acquiring a jet, in a country where annual health budget is $ 20 million per annum! talking about prioritisation, who are the most affected group in thge society (healthwise) I guess its children. But the declarations are just one wastage of efforts if Africa leaders can not push each other in keeping their promises. Otherwise, if our reprersentatives (MPs) can let the governments know that they will not ratify and agreement, protocol, declaration unless the govt comes up with a set of action plan... Bakari --- research wrote: > Dear All > > Where do I start!! its really getting very > interesting and challenging, > too!! Thanks so much to all of you who have cooked > quite a number of bones > of contention!! Bakari's opinion that women seem to > enjoy and agree to be > subjected to such cultural exploitations; Lindiwe > Nkutha's view that yes, to > some extent they do BUT lets also look beyond the > surface and interrogate > WHY they seem to accept something which does not > seem to benefit them in any > way, raising issues of socialization and culture as > passed from generation > to generation; Lindiwe Nkonyane (we really have to > distinguish the Lindiwes > here, otherwise we will get mixed up!!!(smile)) who > raised another important > issue that the way around it would be to ensure > statutory and constitutional > guarantees to protect women and children. A > proposition made by Maggie, > which I think also needs for us to further reflect > on is that where culture > and custom clashes with individual rights, the > course to take should be to > apply the basic human rights principles of > non-disrimination, non-oppression > and fairness and more importantly, Educating women > as a priority! Maybe we > can reflect a bit more on how for instance legal > reforms and constitutional > guarantees can turn around the situation, especially > bearing in mind that > most law makers in the region are indeed men (they > are the majority in most > Parliaments), and even where laws do exist, there > does not seem to be a > clear framework and mechanisms to fully implement > them. For instance, King > Mswati signed both the UN Convention on the Rights > of the Child, and the > SADC Declaration on Gender and Development, both of > which oblige him to > protect the rights of children. To me, the issue > then becomes a matter of > reconciling these international instruments with > customary and cultural > practices, and making sure that there is a legal > framework to guarantee the > full implementation of the provisions of such > instruments. What do others > think about this?? Lets continue to talk!!!!!! > > Alice > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jennifer Joni" > To: "research" ; > > Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 1:55 PM > Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs > and Modernity > > > > maqabane > > > > Interesting subject, culture and people wanting to > use culture to do their > > horrendous, violent deeds. There are a few issues > that i always grapple > > with when confronted with these questions, which I > honestly believe go to > > the root of who we are; I mean those of us who are > expected to respect our > > culture. > > At what point does culture stop being that which > we think should be > > practiced? Is this determined by the western > values that have been > > instilled in us since colonialism? Do we > (especially in South Africa) say > > that we now have a Constitution which says that > conduct that is in not in > > line with the vales in the Constitution, is > unconstitutional. Those > values > > being human dignity, equality and blah blah blah. > > The reason I am raising these concerns emanates > from a statement made at > the > > Racism Conference, where one woman stated that we > should be cautious of > > attempts by the other -who is insistent and is > forcing the people to > > abrogate their culture because they think it is > oppressive. The yardstick > > being the western culture. > > I am not condoning what Moswati is doing but I > would like to know what > > processes need to be put in place to challenge > abusive, insulting > practices. > > Do we for example take stock of all those > practices that we think > perpetuate > > violence against women? and then decide and agree > how we are going to > change > > them? Who does this for us? > > In my Xhosa culture there are indeed practices > that are demeaning, and > cause > > a lot of hardship for women. How do we attend to > this. > > > > Salani ngoxolo > > The JJ > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: lindiwe nkutha > > To: research ; > > > Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 10:59 AM > > Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs > and Modernity > > > > > > > Hi again > > > > > > Interestingly as we talk about culture we begin > to challaenge our own > > > beliefs on what constitutes culture as well as > how we understand the > > > workings of it. Critical to this realisation is > our understanding and > > > appreciation of how culture is passed on from > generation to generation, > > > entrenching positions of indivduals and setting > precedents that future > > > genarations will follow often times > unquestioned. > > > > > > Bakari raises properly the predicament of > chicken and egg where culture > is > > > concerned, and so we ask, in the formation of > society and the > negotiation > > of > > > indivual identities which takes more precedent, > the indivual make up of > > > members of communities or the culture into which > they are born? And this > > is > > > the real quanandram! > > > > > > If we agree that culture exists for amongst > other reasons as a tempalte > on > > > which our own indivual identities are formed, we > agree also that gender > > > roles are difined in culture; the man as hunter, > gatherer and aggressor > > and > > > woman as surbesvient receipient of caring, > nurtiring etc etc are > > entrenched > > > also in culture (and not just African cultures, > just about all cultures > in > > > fact). So that we base our understanding of the > situation in Swaziland > on > > > this premise, and begin to realise that from > generation to generation, > > women > > > in Swaziland would gather for the reed dance, > half naked or almost > > entirely > > > completely naked as Bakari says, is no > co-incidence, it is done because > it > > > is a practice that fore ancestors engaged in as > part of their cultural > > > expression ( to what end now, is what we have to > grapple with) . > > > > > > As a by the way as on my way to my point, I > need to say, Swazi people > and > > > in fact most cultures in Southern Africa did not > wear anything much > before > > > we were introduced to a western way of > dressing...part of our > === message truncated === __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Everything you'll ever need on one web page from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts http://uk.my.yahoo.com From mmcdonough at irex.org Wed Nov 20 18:04:26 2002 From: mmcdonough at irex.org (Maggie McDonough) Date: Tue Feb 27 14:10:58 2007 Subject: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity Message-ID: <51E0CF9C2CF499478C33F3D4FFD3763097BEF5@exchange.irex.org> Hello again, I'm sure everybody is tired of hearing from me already, but on this point there is something I feel compelled to say. That is, I don't think the laws should necessarily reflect the culture at all times. I see legislation as one thing that can compel that which society/culture is not prepared to accept. One anecdotal example of this from the history of my country relates to the issue of public school desegregation in the 1950s. Particularly in the southern part of the US, many states were absolutely opposed to desegregating schools and a long legal battle ensued over this issue. As a result, in 1954, our Supreme Court mandated all states of the union must desegregate schools, even though many areas of the country were fundamentally opposed to it on a cultural level. Of course from a human rights point of view the court made the only decision they could have. So, in cases like this, I think laws should be designed to advance certain principles instead of reflecting prevailing culture. Maggie -----Original Message----- From: Fr. Steve Kamanga jnr [mailto:radiomaria@malawi.net] Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 4:58 PM To: research; Jennifer Joni; Maggie McDonough; egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity I agree our laws are not updated to suit our current environment. We are saying culture is dynamic (always changing), it follows therefore that the laws that govern, protect and enforces such a culture must also be changing/modified when culture is modified. What we see happening is we are using same laws in a very modified culture. Steve Malawi ----- Original Message ----- From: research To: Jennifer Joni ; Maggie McDonough ; Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 5:27 PM Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > Dear All > Sorry, i just felt I had to say something again. I think Jennifer and > Maggie's contributions here again raise an importnat point, which i > think I > alluded to in my previous contribution about legal frameworks and > constitutional provisions in the region, and this is precisely that > most countries in the region have not reformed their laws and legal > frameworks to > reconcile them with international Human Rights instruments that they > have acceded to or ratified. Maybe the question then should be do we > reform the laws and frameworks to match international instruments or > do we adapt and reform international instruments to fit our > frameworks?? And I think this is > especially important when we talk gender equality in Southern Africa, where > the whole arena of decision-making is generally dominated by men! What > do others think? Lets unpack it!!!! Alice > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jennifer Joni" > To: "Maggie McDonough" ; "research" > ; > Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 4:52 PM > Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > > > > Maggie, just a pint of clarity. What I was trying to say is that we > > get caught up in two situations. One is the human rights debate, > > which I said > > is meant to determine which of our cultural values should remain, > > that is > > does the particular custom /practice pass the constitutional > > scrutiny. Second, is then the issue about western values that > > sometimes get used to > > determine which cultural values should remain. I am not at all suggesting > > an interrelation between the two concepts. > > Human rights are the best thing that has ever happened to planet > > earth, > the > > question is: is using the human rights stick or constitutional > > arguments relevant in I think we are all trying to uncover here? The > > JJ > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Maggie McDonough > > To: 'Jennifer Joni' ; research > > ; > > Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 4:37 PM > > Subject: RE: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > > > > > > > Hello again, > > > > > > I think Jennifer raised some interesting points here, but there is > > > one > > point > > > in particular that I would like to address -- that is, the concept > > > of > > human > > > rights being determined by western/colonial values. I actually do > > > not accept that human rights is a uniquely western concept. Human > > > rights > have > > > been invoked by people throughout the world, both historically and > > > contemporaneously. Human rights formed the basis of the Non-cooperation > > > Movement AGAINST the British in colonial India. Human rights have > formed > > > the basis against the authoritarian and military regimes of Europe > > > and Eurasia. Mass movements (e.g. for gender equality, > > > environmental protection, etc) have gained untold strength and > > > sustenance from human rights issues. The list can go on. > > > > > > Anyway, just wanted to add my two cents on this point. > > > > > > Maggie > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Jennifer Joni [mailto:jonij@law.wits.ac.za] > > > Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 6:56 AM > > > To: research; egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org > > > Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > > > > > > > > > maqabane > > > > > > Interesting subject, culture and people wanting to use culture to > > > do > their > > > horrendous, violent deeds. There are a few issues that i always grapple > > > with when confronted with these questions, which I honestly > > > believe go > to > > > the root of who we are; I mean those of us who are expected to > > > respect > our > > > culture. At what point does culture stop being that which we think > should > > be > > > practiced? Is this determined by the western values that have > > > been instilled in us since colonialism? Do we (especially in South > > > Africa) > say > > > that we now have a Constitution which says that conduct that is in > > > not > in > > > line with the vales in the Constitution, is unconstitutional. > > > Those > > values > > > being human dignity, equality and blah blah blah. The reason I am > raising > > > these concerns emanates from a statement made at the Racism Conference, > > > where one woman stated that we should be cautious of attempts by > > > the > other > > > -who is insistent and is forcing the people to abrogate their > > > culture because they think it is oppressive. The yardstick being > > > the western culture. I am not condoning what Moswati is doing but > > > I would like to > know > > > what processes need to be put in place to challenge abusive, > > > insulting practices. Do we for example take stock of all those > > > practices that we > > think > > > perpetuate violence against women? and then decide and agree how > > > we are > > > going to change them? Who does this for us? In my Xhosa culture > > > there > are > > > indeed practices that are demeaning, and cause a lot of hardship > > > for > > women. > > > How do we attend to this. > > > > > > Salani ngoxolo > > > The JJ > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: lindiwe nkutha > > > To: research ; > > > > > Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 10:59 AM > > > Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > > > > > > > > > > Hi again > > > > > > > > Interestingly as we talk about culture we begin to challaenge > > > > our own > > > > beliefs on what constitutes culture as well as how we understand > > > > the workings of it. Critical to this realisation is our > > > > understanding and > > > > appreciation of how culture is passed on from generation to > > > > generation, entrenching positions of indivduals and setting precedents > > > > that future genarations will follow often times unquestioned. > > > > > > > > Bakari raises properly the predicament of chicken and egg where > > > > culture is concerned, and so we ask, in the formation of society > > > > and the negotiation > > > of > > > > indivual identities which takes more precedent, the indivual > > > > make up of members of communities or the culture into which they > > > > are born? And > > > > this > > > is > > > > the real quanandram! > > > > > > > > If we agree that culture exists for amongst other reasons as a > > > > tempalte on which our own indivual identities are formed, we > > > > agree also that gender roles are difined in culture; the man as > > > > hunter, gatherer and aggressor > > > and > > > > woman as surbesvient receipient of caring, nurtiring etc etc are > > > entrenched > > > > also in culture (and not just African cultures, just about all > > > > cultures in fact). So that we base our understanding of the situation > > > > in Swaziland on this premise, and begin to realise that from > > > > generation to generation, > > > women > > > > in Swaziland would gather for the reed dance, half naked or > > > > almost > > > entirely > > > > completely naked as Bakari says, is no co-incidence, it is done > > > > because it is a practice that fore ancestors engaged in as part > > > > of their cultural expression ( to what end now, is what we have > > > > to grapple with) . > > > > > > > > As a by the way as on my way to my point, I need to say, Swazi people > > > > and in fact most cultures in Southern Africa did not wear > > > > anything much before we were introduced to a western way of > > > > dressing...part of > > > > our colonisation...essentially "nudity" was for us never a > > > > tabooo. The > > > > comment on nudity reflects how the western way of being have > > > > influenced how we see ourselves. > > > > > > > > Having said that and getting back on course to my point, I need > > > > to repeat what I said yesterday, which Columbus picked up on > > > > also, that "customs and culture can be used to further gains of > > > > individuals". The > > > > genesis of the reed dance a Swazi friend informs me, was for > > > > the Queen mother, never a parade for the king to choose his > > > > wives. It was > > > > for the queen mother to choose for herself maidens that would > > > > help her > > > > in her homestead . The > > > "king" > > > > has now appropriated this tradition for himself and has turned > > > > it into > > > > a peep show for himself (re-entrenching women's positions as objects > > > > of gaze...for the titilation of his own self). Is it then the practice > > > > itself that is wrong or is the "reason" for its continuance that > > > > is oppressive? > > > and > > > > this is the point of this discussion I mantain. Bakari says > > > > women in Swaziland ecxept for my namesake Dlamini agree with the > > > > culture and > > > customs. > > > > This statement is not entirely wrong, because if they did not > > > > no woman would send their daughters to the reed dance, and as > > > > westernised as we > > > have > > > > become mothers in Swaziland would ensure that if their daughters went > > > > they were fully clothed and so on and so on. > > > > > > > > But why do women continue to send their children? Because women > > > > are in > > > most > > > > cases the custodians of culture, and if we all agree that > > > > culture in the wrong hands can be oppressive we begin to > > > > appreciate how women remaining oblivious to their oppression can > > > > serve the interests of those who seek to keep them oppressed. > > > > And right here is where I agree > > > > fully with Bakari, knowldge is power! Knowledge and information > > > > on the > > > > basis of which change can be negotiated both at an individual > > > > and community level has been > > > witheld > > > > for far too long from women. Unless and until women conscientize > > > > one > > > another > > > > or are conscientized to a different reality, such abuses as we > > > > see in > > > > Swaziland will continue. Because culture is not static, and is > > > > ever changing, what will begin to happen is that together, as > > > > women and men we will begin to build a new culture that defines > > > > aptly who we want to be. Unless that happens (not only in > > > > Swaziland) but the world > > > > over women will appear and in fact may just continue to collude > > > > in their own oppression. > > > > > > > > Oh dear I'm afraid I have gone on and on...apologies Alice for > > > > the lenght > > > of > > > > this, but I guess what I was trying to say in a very round > > > > about way > > > > is > > > (i) > > > > culture is not static and is capable of being changed by > > > > individuals > > > > (ii) women need to be empowred to begin to see the world differently > > > > so they contribute meaningfully to processses that shape their lives, > > > > including > > > the > > > > shaping of culture. > > > > > > > > Until next time > > > > > > > > Lindiwe Nkutha > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "bakari machumu" > > > > To: "lindiwe nkutha" ; "research" > > > > ; > > > > Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 6:02 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi to all, > > > > > This is kind of a tricky situation where one get confused on a > > > > > situation like a chick and egg, what comes first. Can't > > > > > demacate clearly that, from this point on, human rights > > > > > begins. I think if we are to go on with this culture, custom > > > > > and tradition thing, then it should be under equal > > > > > applications for both Men and Women. But do > > > > > women as women know their right in Swaziland, i mean with the > > > > > exception of Lindiwe Dlaminimost Swazi women, (its my guess i stand > > > > > to be > > > > > corrected) agrees with the culture, customs tradition thing > > > > > todate. I mean, i can't imagine them continuing parading with > > > > > their upper bodies and most of the under part in such > > > > > neckedness, that by itself keeps their minds in it.To me that, > > > > > consititutes negative cultural practices Now, to solve this > > > > > thing, i believe on agressive, consistent awareness > > > > > creation.How? that is the question > > > > > > > > > > Bakari > > > > > Dar es Salaam > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- lindiwe nkutha wrote: > > > > > > Hi to all > > > > > > > > > > > > Its an interesting topic isn't it'? the convergence of human > > > > > > rights and custom/ culture etc. Ideally these should not be > > > > > > mutually exclusive, me thinks. I think also that in > > > > > > particular, southern African customs that espouse or purport > > > > > > to espouse the principle of Ubuntu should not at all have > > > > > > a problem with human rights. (but then again there are a lot > > > > > > of things I think that are not necessarily fact). My > > > > > > rationale is if the foundation of the concept of ubuntu > > > > > > which is said to recognise (albeit > > > > > > philosophically) that "I am because you are" is our point of > > > > > > departure then who I am is intrinsically linked to who you > > > > > > are. If you are free, so am I free, if you are oppressed, so > > > > > > am I oppressed, and so on and so on. > > > > > > > > > > > > But because society loves an "other", and patriarchy has > > > > > > worked wonders in "securing women's positions as others", > > > > > > patriarchy in a heavy disguise as culture has always been > > > > > > used as the banner under which abuses of human rights are > > > > > > perpetuated. So that the lines were blurred and everytime we said > > > > > > "I am bec