[Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity
Kudzaishe
Kudzaishe at mwengo.org.zw
Wed Nov 20 14:35:12 SAST 2002
Dear All
Just some comments on what has been brought up so far.
In terms of the proposal to change laws, I admit that changing laws is an
important step in the modification of the status quo. However, it should not
be viewed as the be end all. We have to work on changing the attitudes of
all those people (both men and women) who are involved in the oppression of
women. This is not an easy task as it means a complete reversal of belief
systems, practices and positions that have been held since time immemorial.
Furthermore, I have noticed that there have been a number of comments that
Swaziland is a signatory to a child rights bill as well as a women's rights
bill. If the case is like in Zimbabwe, which I suspect it might be,
government can be a signatory of all the conventions under the sky, which
call for the protection of its citizens. However, if these bills are not
integrated into the law and constitution of the country, they are useless.
This is because if for example customary laws are an integral part of the
constitution of the country, the bills are overridden by the constitution of
the country. This is called the protection of the sovereignty of the state.
I also feel that it is only until the decision making bodies are staffed by
enlightened women that progress can be made towards the advancement of
women's rights the world over. I stress enlightened because we can have 90%
of women in the decision making frameworks who might be the custodians of
culture . We thus need women who fully understand that the rights of women
should be protected for the advancement of the society.
Just on a final point as my contribution is getting too long, I feel that it
is a bit unfair to state that the Swazi women condone the king's action as
they send their daughters to the reed dance. What should be examined is the
root of the cultural practice and why it is valued to that extent and also
the symbolism of the whole concept. If I am not mistaken only virgins take
part in the reed dance and I suppose if a girl does not take part in the
dance she will be stigmatised (I stand to be corrected on this). Therefore
as we all know most families want to be viewed in the best possible light
and thus they are more or less forced to take part in the activities. The
first step might be for a campaign, in which all (or most) of the Swazi
people take part and refuse to take participate in the ceremony i.e. no
participants, no ceremony. This could be a first step towards the
modification/ getting rid of this ceremony.
I conclude with a question, we hear that three girls have been taken by the
king, what is the fate so far of the other two girls?
Thanks for bearing with me
Kudzai
-----Original Message-----
From: research [SMTP:research at genderlinks.org.za]
Sent: 19 November 2002 17:27
To: Jennifer Joni; Maggie McDonough;
egemtraining at lists.sn.apc.org
Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and
Modernity
Dear All
Sorry, i just felt I had to say something again. I think Jennifer
and
Maggie's contributions here again raise an importnat point, which i
think I
alluded to in my previous contribution about legal frameworks and
constitutional provisions in the region, and this is precisely that
most
countries in the region have not reformed their laws and legal
frameworks to
reconcile them with international Human Rights instruments that they
have
acceded to or ratified. Maybe the question then should be do we
reform the
laws and frameworks to match international instruments or do we
adapt and
reform international instruments to fit our frameworks?? And I think
this is
especially important when we talk gender equality in Southern
Africa, where
the whole arena of decision-making is generally dominated by men!
What do others think? Lets unpack it!!!!
Alice
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jennifer Joni" <jonij at law.wits.ac.za>
To: "Maggie McDonough" <mmcdonough at irex.org>; "research"
<research at genderlinks.org.za>; <egemtraining at lists.sn.apc.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 4:52 PM
Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity
> Maggie, just a pint of clarity. What I was trying to say is that
we get
> caught up in two situations. One is the human rights debate,
which I said
> is meant to determine which of our cultural values should remain,
that is
> does the particular custom /practice pass the constitutional
scrutiny.
> Second, is then the issue about western values that sometimes get
used to
> determine which cultural values should remain. I am not at all
suggesting
> an interrelation between the two concepts.
> Human rights are the best thing that has ever happened to planet
earth,
the
> question is: is using the human rights stick or constitutional
arguments
> relevant in I think we are all trying to uncover here?
> The JJ
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Maggie McDonough <mmcdonough at irex.org>
> To: 'Jennifer Joni' <jonij at law.wits.ac.za>; research
> <research at genderlinks.org.za>; <egemtraining at lists.sn.apc.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 4:37 PM
> Subject: RE: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity
>
>
> > Hello again,
> >
> > I think Jennifer raised some interesting points here, but there
is one
> point
> > in particular that I would like to address -- that is, the
concept of
> human
> > rights being determined by western/colonial values. I actually
do not
> > accept that human rights is a uniquely western concept. Human
rights
have
> > been invoked by people throughout the world, both historically
and
> > contemporaneously. Human rights formed the basis of the
Non-cooperation
> > Movement AGAINST the British in colonial India. Human rights
have
formed
> > the basis against the authoritarian and military regimes of
Europe and
> > Eurasia. Mass movements (e.g. for gender equality,
environmental
> > protection, etc) have gained untold strength and sustenance from
human
> > rights issues. The list can go on.
> >
> > Anyway, just wanted to add my two cents on this point.
> >
> > Maggie
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Jennifer Joni [mailto:jonij at law.wits.ac.za]
> > Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 6:56 AM
> > To: research; egemtraining at lists.sn.apc.org
> > Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity
> >
> >
> > maqabane
> >
> > Interesting subject, culture and people wanting to use culture
to do
their
> > horrendous, violent deeds. There are a few issues that i always
grapple
> > with when confronted with these questions, which I honestly
believe go
to
> > the root of who we are; I mean those of us who are expected to
respect
our
> > culture. At what point does culture stop being that which we
think
should
> be
> > practiced? Is this determined by the western values that have
been
> > instilled in us since colonialism? Do we (especially in South
Africa)
say
> > that we now have a Constitution which says that conduct that is
in not
in
> > line with the vales in the Constitution, is unconstitutional.
Those
> values
> > being human dignity, equality and blah blah blah. The reason I
am
raising
> > these concerns emanates from a statement made at the Racism
Conference,
> > where one woman stated that we should be cautious of attempts by
the
other
> > -who is insistent and is forcing the people to abrogate their
culture
> > because they think it is oppressive. The yardstick being the
western
> > culture. I am not condoning what Moswati is doing but I would
like to
know
> > what processes need to be put in place to challenge abusive,
insulting
> > practices. Do we for example take stock of all those practices
that we
> think
> > perpetuate violence against women? and then decide and agree how
we are
> > going to change them? Who does this for us? In my Xhosa culture
there
are
> > indeed practices that are demeaning, and cause a lot of hardship
for
> women.
> > How do we attend to this.
> >
> > Salani ngoxolo
> > The JJ
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: lindiwe nkutha <lindiwe at genderlinks.org.za>
> > To: research <research at genderlinks.org.za>;
> <egemtraining at lists.sn.apc.org>
> > Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 10:59 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and Modernity
> >
> >
> > > Hi again
> > >
> > > Interestingly as we talk about culture we begin to challaenge
our own
> > > beliefs on what constitutes culture as well as how we
understand the
> > > workings of it. Critical to this realisation is our
understanding and
> > > appreciation of how culture is passed on from generation to
> > > generation, entrenching positions of indivduals and setting
precedents
> > > that future genarations will follow often times unquestioned.
> > >
> > > Bakari raises properly the predicament of chicken and egg
where
> > > culture is concerned, and so we ask, in the formation of
society and
> > > the negotiation
> > of
> > > indivual identities which takes more precedent, the indivual
make up
> > > of members of communities or the culture into which they are
born? And
> > > this
> > is
> > > the real quanandram!
> > >
> > > If we agree that culture exists for amongst other reasons as a
> > > tempalte on which our own indivual identities are formed, we
agree
> > > also that gender roles are difined in culture; the man as
hunter,
> > > gatherer and aggressor
> > and
> > > woman as surbesvient receipient of caring, nurtiring etc etc
are
> > entrenched
> > > also in culture (and not just African cultures, just about all
> > > cultures in fact). So that we base our understanding of the
situation
> > > in Swaziland on this premise, and begin to realise that from
> > > generation to generation,
> > women
> > > in Swaziland would gather for the reed dance, half naked or
almost
> > entirely
> > > completely naked as Bakari says, is no co-incidence, it is
done
> > > because it is a practice that fore ancestors engaged in as
part of
> > > their cultural expression ( to what end now, is what we have
to
> > > grapple with) .
> > >
> > > As a by the way as on my way to my point, I need to say,
Swazi people
> > > and in fact most cultures in Southern Africa did not wear
anything
> > > much before we were introduced to a western way of
dressing...part of
> > > our colonisation...essentially "nudity" was for us never a
tabooo. The
> > > comment on nudity reflects how the western way of being have
> > > influenced how we see ourselves.
> > >
> > > Having said that and getting back on course to my point, I
need to
> > > repeat what I said yesterday, which Columbus picked up on
also, that
> > > "customs and culture can be used to further gains of
individuals". The
> > > genesis of the reed dance a Swazi friend informs me, was for
the
> > > Queen mother, never a parade for the king to choose his wives.
It was
> > > for the queen mother to choose for herself maidens that would
help her
> > > in her homestead . The
> > "king"
> > > has now appropriated this tradition for himself and has turned
it into
> > > a peep show for himself (re-entrenching women's positions as
objects
> > > of gaze...for the titilation of his own self). Is it then the
practice
> > > itself that is wrong or is the "reason" for its continuance
that is
> > > oppressive?
> > and
> > > this is the point of this discussion I mantain. Bakari says
women in
> > > Swaziland ecxept for my namesake Dlamini agree with the
culture and
> > customs.
> > > This statement is not entirely wrong, because if they did not
no
> > > woman would send their daughters to the reed dance, and as
> > > westernised as we
> > have
> > > become mothers in Swaziland would ensure that if their
daughters went
> > > they were fully clothed and so on and so on.
> > >
> > > But why do women continue to send their children? Because
women are in
> > most
> > > cases the custodians of culture, and if we all agree that
culture in
> > > the wrong hands can be oppressive we begin to appreciate how
women
> > > remaining oblivious to their oppression can serve the
interests of
> > > those who seek to keep them oppressed. And right here is where
I agree
> > > fully with Bakari, knowldge is power! Knowledge and
information on the
> > > basis of which change can be negotiated both at an individual
and
> > > community level has been
> > witheld
> > > for far too long from women. Unless and until women
conscientize one
> > another
> > > or are conscientized to a different reality, such abuses as
we see in
> > > Swaziland will continue. Because culture is not static, and is
ever
> > > changing, what will begin to happen is that together, as women
and
> > > men we will begin to build a new culture that defines aptly
who we
> > > want to be. Unless that happens (not only in Swaziland) but
the world
> > > over women will appear and in fact may just continue to
collude in
> > > their own oppression.
> > >
> > > Oh dear I'm afraid I have gone on and on...apologies Alice for
the
> > > lenght
> > of
> > > this, but I guess what I was trying to say in a very round
about way
> > > is
> > (i)
> > > culture is not static and is capable of being changed by
individuals
> > > (ii) women need to be empowred to begin to see the world
differently
> > > so they contribute meaningfully to processses that shape their
lives,
> > > including
> > the
> > > shaping of culture.
> > >
> > > Until next time
> > >
> > > Lindiwe Nkutha
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "bakari machumu" <bmachumu at yahoo.com>
> > > To: "lindiwe nkutha" <lindiwe at genderlinks.org.za>; "research"
> > > <research at genderlinks.org.za>; <egemtraining at lists.sn.apc.org>
> > > Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 6:02 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Clash between customs and
Modernity
> > >
> > >
> > > > Hi to all,
> > > > This is kind of a tricky situation where one get
> > > > confused on a situation like a chick and egg, what
> > > > comes first. Can't demacate clearly that, from this
> > > > point on, human rights begins. I think if we are to go
> > > > on with this culture, custom and tradition thing, then
> > > > it should be under equal applications for both Men and
Women. But do
> > > > women as women know their right in Swaziland, i mean with
the
> > > > exception of Lindiwe Dlaminimost Swazi women, (its my guess
i stand
> > > > to be
> > > > corrected) agrees with the culture, customs tradition
> > > > thing todate. I mean, i can't imagine them continuing
parading with
> > > > their upper bodies and most of the under part in such
neckedness,
> > > > that by itself keeps their minds in it.To me that,
consititutes
> > > > negative cultural practices Now, to solve this thing, i
believe on
> > > > agressive, consistent awareness creation.How? that is
> > > > the question
> > > >
> > > > Bakari
> > > > Dar es Salaam
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- lindiwe nkutha <lindiwe at genderlinks.org.za> wrote:
> > > > > Hi to all
> > > > >
> > > > > Its an interesting topic isn't it'? the convergence
> > > > > of human rights and custom/ culture etc. Ideally
> > > > > these should not be mutually exclusive, me thinks. I think
also
> > > > > that in particular, southern African customs that espouse
or
> > > > > purport to espouse the principle of Ubuntu should not at
all have
> > > > > a problem with human rights. (but then again there are a
lot
> > > > > of things I think that are not necessarily fact). My
> > > > > rationale is if the foundation of the concept of
> > > > > ubuntu which is said to recognise (albeit
> > > > > philosophically) that "I am because you are" is our
> > > > > point of departure then who I am is intrinsically
> > > > > linked to who you are. If you are free, so am I
> > > > > free, if you are oppressed, so am I oppressed, and
> > > > > so on and so on.
> > > > >
> > > > > But because society loves an "other", and
> > > > > patriarchy has worked wonders in "securing women's
positions as
> > > > > others", patriarchy in a heavy disguise as culture has
always been
> > > > > used as the banner under which abuses of human rights are
> > > > > perpetuated. So that the lines were blurred and everytime
we said
> > > > > "I am because you are" and we were speaking as men,
> > > > > it almost felt natural, cultural, in line with dated
> > > > > customs to exclude women. In this context the
> > > > > speaking ""I am...."' is under patriarchy, not
> > > > > considered the speaking female, it is always
> > > > > the"speaking male and this gets termed culturally
> > > > > acceptable practise, but it is not.
> > > > >
> > > > > If we move form the ""ubuntu" premise, we begin to
> > > > > see that the marginalisation and subjugation of
> > > > > women is against the principle said to ground our culture.
If we
> > > > > accept, and perhaps this is one aspect in our "evolution -
> > > > > culturally" that we left behind, the acceptance that the
speaking
> > > > > "I am..." is both male and female, then within culture we
> > > > > begin to see that some of the things that get
> > > > > justified as culture are in fact not cultural, but
> > > > > are patriarchal practices dressed as culture.
> > > > >
> > > > > The king says he will not turn away from his
> > > > > cultural practices no matter what! Selectively so,
> > > > > he sticks to his cultural practices when it suits
> > > > > him, because there are benefits for him. Which is
> > > > > another thing about culture that is worth
> > > > > mentioning. More times than not the most vocal
> > > > > voices on the adoption of culture are those that
> > > > > have a vested interest in the practice at hand. An
> > > > > uncle who needs to "cleanse a widow" will probably
> > > > > be the loudest about upholding culture, even though
> > > > > they may be silent about other aspects of that same
culture. My
> > > > > point being that culture can be used to advance or secure
people's
> > > > > positions.
> > > > >
> > > > > As I sign off, I need to make it clear that I do not think
that
> > > > > culture is all bad. No in fact I appreciate the critical
position
> > > > > that particularly those in countries that were previously
> > > > > colonised are grappling with. A project of recovery of
that
> > > > > which we were before our culture was tempered with,
> > > > > balanced against the reality of the now and who we
> > > > > define ourselves as presently as well as the
> > > > > challenge of self definition into the future of who
> > > > > we want to be. And we sit in a challenging
> > > > > position. The true test for all of us though (me
> > > > > thinks) in assessing what is acceptable as culture
> > > > > and what is not acceptable is whether or not the
> > > > > precise in any way takes away from an individual
> > > > > (and in turn the collective...community ...based on
> > > > > Ubuntu)
> > > > > ability to enjoy to its full extent the experience
> > > > > of being human.
> > > > >
> > > > > Until later
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: research
> > > > > To: egemtraining at lists.sn.apc.org
> > > > > Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 9:47 AM
> > > > > Subject: [Egemtraining] This week's discussion
> > > > > topic: Lets Talk!!!
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Dear All
> > > > >
> > > > > I am sure most of you have been itching to receive
> > > > > the first discussion topic and are ready to roll!!!
> > > > > I have been keenly waiting to start as weel. Below
> > > > > is the discussion topic and the question at the end
> > > > > of the piece. Please remember not to make your
contribution too
> > > > > long. Just comment as briefly as possible to give others a
chance
> > > > > to also share their opinions. Also remember to "reply to
all" so
> > > > > that you do not share your opinion just with me but with
> > > > > all in the network. Happy reading and looking
> > > > > forward to hearing your opinions!!!
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Where does culture start and stop, and individual rights
begin?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I am sure most of us are aware of the
> > > > > controversial ongoing court case in Swaziland
> > > > > between a mother (Lindiwe Dlamini) and the King (his
> > > > > aides) concerning the abduction of an
> > > > > 18-year-old-child (Zena) Mahlangu for "royal
> > > > > duties".
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > For those who have not been following the case,
> > > > > the King (who is being sued through his aides, is
> > > > > alleged to have abducted the child from school
> > > > > without her mother's knowledge and consent. Lindiwe
> > > > > wants her child to be returned to her custody and
> > > > > the King has been arguing that the child is being
> > > > > kept at the Royal Guest House to be prepared to be
> > > > > the King's 10th wife. The King was quoted as saying
> > > > > at a press conference, "The whole issue has been
> > > > > blown out of proportion by those who took advantage
> > > > > of trying to destroy our customs and traditions".
> > > > > People may say whatever they want to sy but I vow to
> > > > > stick to our traditions, no matter what the times
> > > > > are. I can be blamed left and right, but the fact of
> > > > > the matter is that it is our culture that I should
> > > > > marry many wives as I can. I cannot allow myself to
> > > > > be forced to follow Western culture".
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > The controversy is generally seen as a "clash
> > > > > between customs and modernity". According to custom,
> > > > > Mswati may choose a new wife each year from among
> > > > > the thousands of virgins who attend the annual reed
> > > > > dance". Ironically Mswati last year revived a
> > > > > traditional ban on sex with underage girls to combat
> > > > > HIV/AIDS.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > After protests for the abduction of Zena and two
> > > > > other girls, the King fined himself a cow for
> > > > > breaking his own royal decree. (BBC News). He was
> > > > > also quoted as saying that he was prepared to pay
> > > > > cows as fines for selecting the three girls.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Zena's mother is challenging the alleged
> > > > > traditional grabbing of her daughter on the grounds
> > > > > that she was not consulted, did not consent and her
> > > > > child has been taken out of school and therefore was
> > > > > abducted. The King's courtiers (aides) have been
> > > > > arguing that the girl was not abducted but went
> > > > > willingly. "Everything was arranged between the King
> > > > > and the girl and our job was just to pick her at the
> > > > > agreed spot. No force was applied".
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Human rights activists have been arguing that
> > > > > "traditionalists should stop "raping" girls in the
> > > > > name of culture, while royals have been insisting
> > > > > that Mswati's selection of Zena to be his bride is a
> > > > > traditional issue that must be resolved through
> > > > > Swazi customs and culture.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Gender and human rights activists have noted that
> > > > > Zena is a minor child (18 years) and the abduction
> > > > > is a criminal offence in that it violates
> > > > >
> > > > > 1) Lindiwe Dlamini's rights to custody and
> > > > > guardianship over her minor child and also that;
> > > > >
> > > > > 2) Zena's rights to liberty, freedom of movement,
> > > > > education, choice of marriage partner, right to be a
> > > > > child and bodily integrity.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Most of us are, I am sure, aware that Swaziland is
> > > > > signatory to the SADC Declaration on Gender and
> > > > > Development which commits it in article (vii) to,
> > > > > among other things, protecting the human rights of
> > > > > women and children, which raises a number of
> > > > > concerns regarding this case.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Question for Discussion
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 1) Where should culture, custom and tradition
> > > > > stop and individual human rights begin, to ensure
> > > > > the
> > > > === message truncated ===
> > > >
> > > > __________________________________________________
> > > > Do You Yahoo!?
> > > > Everything you'll ever need on one web page
> > > > from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts
> > > > http://uk.my.yahoo.com
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Egemtraining mailing list
> > > > Egemtraining at lists.sn.apc.org
> > > > http://lists.sn.apc.org/mailman/listinfo/egemtraining
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Egemtraining mailing list
> > > Egemtraining at lists.sn.apc.org
> > > http://lists.sn.apc.org/mailman/listinfo/egemtraining
> > >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Egemtraining mailing list
> > Egemtraining at lists.sn.apc.org
> > http://lists.sn.apc.org/mailman/listinfo/egemtraining
> > _______________________________________________
> > Egemtraining mailing list
> > Egemtraining at lists.sn.apc.org
> > http://lists.sn.apc.org/mailman/listinfo/egemtraining
> >
>
_______________________________________________
Egemtraining mailing list
Egemtraining at lists.sn.apc.org
http://lists.sn.apc.org/mailman/listinfo/egemtraining
More information about the Egemtraining
mailing list