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hear, hearYes but whose culture is it- that seems to dehuminise others and
uplift other. Ithink there is hierarchy in this kind of culture and really
there nothing good and bad about it- It should be looked at from a different
angle rather because looking at it from that perspective does help in terms
of offering not giving an anylitic insight- what we need is somerthing that
can show the evolution of humnkind with in time and spapce.
For instance the king represent the ruling class and that how they want us
to believe that there something called culture- instead it is rather a
ritual. It thgen appeares that anything that dehuminises others especially
the weak and marginalised can not be said to identicasl to classical
practices- though it terms of classics it was there that the ruling class
wouls create a fort for them and make it appear that it si something that
should /can be shared by all. Culture is something that was created and
givem meaning the ruling class as it does not give identity to all.
It something psychological in that it want to create a cvommon identity and
people especially the powerless find solance in it- while the ruling class
benefit from such constructions.
this is just a thought
P. Tshukudu
-----Original Message-----
From: egemtraining-admin@lists.sn.apc.org
[mailto:egemtraining-admin@lists.sn.apc.org]On Behalf Of Columbus S.
Mavhunga
Sent: 18 November 2002 17:31
To: research; egemtraining
Subject: [Egemtraining] hear, hear
Folks, I must confess that my submissions are going to be 'affected' by
what Lindiwe said. She brought very relevant points which will be my
starting points and I will just try to reinforce them and add anything if
she has anything that she left out.
----------- ----------- ----------- ----------- -----------
------------ ------- ----- -----
As Lindi was signing off she said: "Culture can be used to advance or
secure people's positions... I need to make it clear that I do not think
that culture is all bad."
I think African culture is one thing I have ever liked - debatable of
course this is. It was 'invented' to make life nice for every African - from
the king to the poorest person like me - be it a male or a female.
Kings were meant to make sure that the customs were adhered to hence there
was an indaba (royal court) where those who would have breached the cultural
norms would be tried.
But in the case of Swazi king - if at all he still deserves the title
king - we are dealing without someone who is trying to manipulate a system.
Culturally, Kings were meant to protect the vulnerable, but in the case of
Mswati he has decided to feed on the prey. Do I hear someone say a who will
protect the flock from preditors when the shephered starts pounding on his
flock unjustifiably?
In a real African culture there is no 'marriage' that would take place
between a bride and a bridegroom without the consent of the bride's family.
The marriage, in fact, needs the blessings of both in-laws. I am surprised
that Mswati he abducted Zena without the consent of her mother (Lindiwe
Dlamini). What makes it worse is that Zena is just 18 years old.
I stand to be corrected if African culture did not respect the rights of a
minor.
If Mswati was to stand by his "African culture' what then is he going to
do when it comes to the wedding ceremony. (I cannot recall the traditional
name.) It has to involve both in-laws, doesn't it?
There is noone who would want to 'destroy our customs and traditions' as
Mswati claims. But he must use his greedness in the name of culture
otherwise we we would sought the help of the West and human right activists
to destroy it.
Mswati even boasts further: "I can be blamed left and right, but the fact
of the matter is that it is our culture that I should marry many wives as I
can. I cannot allow myself to be forced to follow Western culture."
Granted, let him marry as many wives as he likes, but he must not rape as
many wives as he likes in the guise of culture, in his day and age of the
AIDS/HIV pandemic.
Let me stress that there no 'clash between customs and modernity' as some
people would want to put it. It is simply a clash between a babarian and a
civilised society.
I wonder if there would be anyone around who would witness the day Mswati
regains his conscience and be asked what happens if he was in the shoes of
Mama Dlamini. He would blink hundred times and keep quiet.
I am outta here,
coil.
a
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
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hear, hear
Yes=20
but whose culture is it- that seems to dehuminise others and uplift =
other.=20
Ithink there is hierarchy in this kind of culture and really there =
nothing good=20
and bad about it- It should be looked at from a different angle rather =
because=20
looking at it from that perspective does help in terms of offering not =
giving an=20
anylitic insight- what we need is somerthing that can show the evolution =
of=20
humnkind with in time and spapce.
For=20
instance the king represent the ruling class and that how they want us =
to=20
believe that there something called culture- instead it is rather a =
ritual. It=20
thgen appeares that anything that dehuminises others especially the weak =
and=20
marginalised can not be said to identicasl to classical practices- =
though it=20
terms of classics it was there that the ruling class wouls create a fort =
for=20
them and make it appear that it si something that should /can be shared =
by all.=20
Culture is something that was created and givem meaning the ruling class =
as it=20
does not give identity to all.
It=20
something psychological in that it want to create a cvommon identity and =
people=20
especially the powerless find solance in it- while the ruling class =
benefit from=20
such constructions.
this=20
is just a thought
P.=20
Tshukudu
Folks, I must confess that my submissions are =
going=20
to be 'affected' by what Lindiwe said. She brought very relevant =
points which=20
will be my starting points and I will just try to reinforce them and =
add=20
anything if she has anything that she left out.
-----------=20
----------- ----------- =
-----------=20
----------- =
------------=20
------- ----- -----
As Lindi was =
signing off=20
she said: "Culture can be used to advance or secure people's =
positions... I=20
need to make it clear that I do not think that culture is all =
bad."
I think=20
African culture is one thing I have ever liked - debatable of course =
this is.=20
It was 'invented' to make life nice for every African - from the king =
to the=20
poorest person like me - be it a male or a female.
Kings were =
meant to=20
make sure that the customs were adhered to hence there was an =
indaba=20
(royal court) where those who would have breached the cultural =
norms=20
would be tried.
But in the case of Swazi king - if at all he still =
deserves the title king - we are dealing without someone who is trying =
to=20
manipulate a system. Culturally, Kings were meant to protect the =
vulnerable,=20
but in the case of Mswati he has decided to feed on the prey. Do I =
hear=20
someone say a who will protect the flock from preditors when the =
shephered=20
starts pounding on his flock unjustifiably?
In a real African =
culture there=20
is no 'marriage' that would take place between a bride and a =
bridegroom=20
without the consent of the bride's family. The marriage, in fact, =
needs the=20
blessings of both in-laws. I am surprised that Mswati he abducted Zena =
without=20
the consent of her mother (Lindiwe Dlamini). What makes it worse =
is that=20
Zena is just 18 years old.
I stand to be corrected if African =
culture did=20
not respect the rights of a minor.
If Mswati was to stand by his =
"African=20
culture' what then is he going to do when it comes to the wedding =
ceremony. (I=20
cannot recall the traditional name.) It has to involve both in-laws, =
doesn't=20
it?
There is noone who would want to 'destroy our customs and =
traditions' as Mswati claims. But he must use his greedness in the =
name of=20
culture otherwise we we would sought the help of the West and human =
right=20
activists to destroy it.
Mswati even boasts further: "I can be =
blamed left=20
and right, but the fact of the matter is that it is our culture that I =
should=20
marry many wives as I can. I cannot allow myself to be forced to =
follow=20
Western culture."
Granted, let him marry as many wives as he =
likes,=20
but he must not rape as many wives as he likes in the guise of =
culture, in his=20
day and age of the AIDS/HIV pandemic.
Let me stress that there no =
'clash=20
between customs and modernity' as some people would want to put it. It =
is=20
simply a clash between a babarian and a civilised society.
I =
wonder=20
if there would be anyone around who would witness the day Mswati =
regains his=20
conscience and be asked what happens if he was in the shoes of Mama =
Dlamini.=20
He would blink hundred times and keep quiet.
I am outta=20
here,
coil.
a
------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C29632.21FC28A0--
From HardyC@law.wits.ac.za Thu Nov 28 12:31:01 2002
From: HardyC@law.wits.ac.za (Chloe Hardy)
Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 14:31:01 +0200
Subject: [Egemtraining] Marital rape and HIV
References: <003201c29455$27d7f2b0$0e00a8c0@ALICEK>
Message-ID: <001601c296da$02ff06e0$2e228d92@fnb.wits.ac.za>
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C296EA.C64DDB20
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi everyone
Here are a few thoughts on marital rape in the context of the HIV =
epidemic:
In sub-Saharan Africa, HIV is increasingly affecting women. This is =
because women are biologically more vulnerable to HIV infection, and =
because of social factors, such as gender inequality. It is difficult =
to speak sweepingly about culture, but generally (and this is probably =
true around the world), it is considered more acceptable for men to have =
multiple sexual partners than women. Migrant labour contributes to this =
problem, with men tending to have a family home, while in engaging in a =
variety of relationships with other women in their areas of work.
Women, particularly married women, are often financially dependent on =
their male partners, and simply have no say in matters of sex and =
reproduction. For a variety of complex social, economic and cultural =
reasons, they are unable to insist that their husband's use condoms or =
remain faithful. Many women are aware of their husband's extramarital =
affairs, but powerless to stop them. When domestic violence (and =
marital rape is an extreme form of domestic violence) is present in a =
relationship, it is even more difficult for a woman to insist on safer =
sex.
One of the myths about HIV is that it is confined to certain "high risk" =
groups, such as sex workers. The reality is that HIV is transmitted =
where-ever people have multiple partners and unsafe sex. Married women =
are a particularly vulnerable group, because it is very difficult for =
them to ask their husband to use condoms; they can be faithful =
themselves, but have no power to prevent their husbands from having =
affairs; and they risk being raped by their husbands if they try to =
abstain from sex.
Providing PEP (anti-retroviral drugs to prevent HIV infection) to =
survivors of marital rape may also not be feasible. PEP has been used =
for many years to prevent HIV infection in health care workers who have =
sustained needle-stick injuries. Basically, the drugs are taken for 28 =
days after the incident, and prevent infection after a single, high-risk =
exposure. Recently, PEP has been recommended for preventing HIV =
infection after rape, as rape is usually also a single, risk exposure, =
and the same principles apply. However, PEP is not effective where a =
person is repeatedly exposed to HIV. Unfortunately, it is unlikely to =
be effective in situations of marital rape, because there is a good =
chance that if the husband is HIV positive, his wife will already have =
been exposed to the virus during consensual sex (or during previous =
marital rapes). There is also the likelihood that she will be exposed =
again in future, if she continues to live with him. PEP would probably =
only be effective in the rare cases where a woman had not previously =
been infected by an HIV positive husband, and has left him immediately =
after the rape.
As you can see, women's lack of power in sexual relationships (including =
marriage) is a major contributing factor to the spread of HIV. Put =
another way, if we are to successfully combat HIV, we need to challenge =
men's power over women's bodies.
Thanks very much
Chloe Hardy
AIDS Law Project
------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C296EA.C64DDB20
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi everyone
Here are a few thoughts on marital rape =
in the=20
context of the HIV epidemic:
In sub-Saharan Africa, HIV is =
increasingly=20
affecting women. This is because women are biologically more =
vulnerable to=20
HIV infection, and because of social factors, such as gender =
inequality. =20
It is difficult to speak sweepingly about culture, but generally (and =
this is=20
probably true around the world), it is considered more acceptable for =
men to=20
have multiple sexual partners than women. Migrant labour =
contributes to=20
this problem, with men tending to have a family home, while in engaging =
in a=20
variety of relationships with other women in their areas of =
work.
Women, particularly married women, are =
often=20
financially dependent on their male partners, and simply have no say in =
matters=20
of sex and reproduction. For a variety of complex social, economic =
and=20
cultural reasons, they are unable to insist that their husband's use =
condoms or=20
remain faithful. Many women are aware of their husband's =
extramarital=20
affairs, but powerless to stop them. When domestic violence (and =
marital=20
rape is an extreme form of domestic violence) is present in a =
relationship, it=20
is even more difficult for a woman to insist on safer sex.
One of the myths about HIV is that it =
is confined=20
to certain "high risk" groups, such as sex workers. The reality is =
that=20
HIV is transmitted where-ever people have multiple partners and unsafe=20
sex. Married women are a particularly vulnerable group, because it =
is very=20
difficult for them to ask their husband to use condoms; they can be =
faithful=20
themselves, but have no power to prevent their husbands from having =
affairs; and=20
they risk being raped by their husbands if they try to abstain from=20
sex.
Providing PEP (anti-retroviral drugs to =
prevent HIV=20
infection) to survivors of marital rape may also not be feasible. =
PEP has=20
been used for many years to prevent HIV infection in health care workers =
who=20
have sustained needle-stick injuries. Basically, the drugs are =
taken for=20
28 days after the incident, and prevent infection after a single, =
high-risk=20
exposure. Recently, PEP has been recommended for preventing HIV =
infection=20
after rape, as rape is usually also a single, risk exposure, and the =
same=20
principles apply. However, PEP is not effective where a person is=20
repeatedly exposed to HIV. Unfortunately, it is unlikely to be =
effective=20
in situations of marital rape, because there is a good chance that if =
the=20
husband is HIV positive, his wife will already have been exposed to the =
virus=20
during consensual sex (or during previous marital rapes). There=20
is also the likelihood that she will be exposed again in future, if =
she=20
continues to live with him. PEP would probably only be effective =
in the=20
rare cases where a woman had not previously been infected by an HIV =
positive=20
husband, and has left him immediately after the rape.
As you can see, women's lack of power =
in sexual=20
relationships (including marriage) is a major contributing factor to the =
spread=20
of HIV. Put another way, if we are to successfully combat HIV, we =
need to=20
challenge men's power over women's bodies.
Thanks very much
Chloe Hardy
AIDS Law =
Project
------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C296EA.C64DDB20--
From research@genderlinks.org.za Fri Nov 29 11:12:21 2002
From: research@genderlinks.org.za (research)
Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 13:12:21 +0200
Subject: [Egemtraining] Marital rape and HIV
References: <003201c29455$27d7f2b0$0e00a8c0@ALICEK> <001601c296da$02ff06e0$2e228d92@fnb.wits.ac.za>
Message-ID: <007501c29798$30e9b140$0e00a8c0@ALICEK>
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------=_NextPart_000_0072_01C297A8.F3C21D00
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear All
Thank you so much for a fruitful week of discussing a very thorny =
subject to say the least. This week has also been a sad one for us at =
the office, with Alice taking ill with chicken pox and being in bed for =
the better part of the week. We send her our love and well wishes.
Thanks to Chloe for wrapping this weeks discussions, as well as for the =
pertinent issues she raises including:
1.How at the core of the problem relating to marital rape ( and any form =
of rape for that matter) is the gender power imbalances, entrenched in =
cultures and patriarchal ways of being.
2. Chloe raises also a more serious issue, relating to the difficulty =
posed to women who may be exposed to HIV repeatedly through their =
husbands, and how this pattern makes almost "futile" the administration =
of antiretroviral drugs to this section of the community.
We are left then, Chloe re-emphasises, with but one sure fire solution =
in the management of HIV within marriages, where women mostly cannot =
negotiate safe sex, with the collective responsibility, as communities, =
as communicators to work towards ushering in a society where gender =
imbalances are addressed with the urgency they deserve.
A number of Other interesting points were raised by all who =
participated, including:
a. How the HIV pandemic has forced us as society to deal with the more =
underlying social ills that give rise to the festering of the problem =
with which we sit.
b. The economic problems that make ARV's out of reach for the poorest of =
the poor, the majority of which are women.
c. The legal problems that women face in reconciling what rights they =
may be afforded by Human Rights Instruments ) and the conflict between =
those instruments and the local laws that apply to women personally.In =
particular within a cultural context, the naming of marital rape as rape
d. The trauma through which survivors of rape have to go through in =
"proving that their rape meets the country defined criteria" for rape, =
amounting to their revictimisation.
e. We also heard the anecdotal account of the going ons in Namibia =
currently, regards the Combating of Domestic Violence Bill, and the =
response it has received, dubbed private and bedroom politics.
f. Malawi's provided a succinct and clear picture on what compounds the =
problems of access to ARV's where the region facing co-inciding major =
problems that require an economic solution, with poverty high up on the =
list, but also demonstrating the interlinkedness of all these problems =
and how they continue to feed the pandemic.
Cultural beliefs were highlighted again as being at the core of the =
pandemic and how in plays itself out in terms of gender.
It's also encouraging, to see how amongst each other, questions of =
language, which society pays little attention to often, crop up and we =
as communicators are on the alert to remind one another of the use of =
non exclusionary language.
The issues brought up so succinctly by Chloe in wrapping up as well as =
the observations listed above, provide a lot more scope for discussion.
Lets continue to talk and perhaps try and say, in the quanandram we =
face, (multiple exposure to HIV rendering the administration of ARV's =
"futile") how do we begin to empower women, or provide space for women =
to empower themselves, to claim or reclaim the power to negotiate safer =
sex, in light of their economic reliance and cultural obligation to men.
Lets continue to talk.
Yours in Alice's shoes.
Lindiwe Nkutha
PS: watch this space in response to the question "how do we view =
archived contributions by group members"
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Chloe Hardy=20
To: research ; egemtraining@lists.sn.apc.org=20
Sent: Thursday, November 28, 2002 2:31 PM
Subject: Re: [Egemtraining] Marital rape and HIV=20
Hi everyone
Here are a few thoughts on marital rape in the context of the HIV =
epidemic:
In sub-Saharan Africa, HIV is increasingly affecting women. This is =
because women are biologically more vulnerable to HIV infection, and =
because of social factors, such as gender inequality. It is difficult =
to speak sweepingly about culture, but generally (and this is probably =
true around the world), it is considered more acceptable for men to have =
multiple sexual partners than women. Migrant labour contributes to this =
problem, with men tending to have a family home, while in engaging in a =
variety of relationships with other women in their areas of work.
Women, particularly married women, are often financially dependent on =
their male partners, and simply have no say in matters of sex and =
reproduction. For a variety of complex social, economic and cultural =
reasons, they are unable to insist that their husband's use condoms or =
remain faithful. Many women are aware of their husband's extramarital =
affairs, but powerless to stop them. When domestic violence (and =
marital rape is an extreme form of domestic violence) is present in a =
relationship, it is even more difficult for a woman to insist on safer =
sex.
One of the myths about HIV is that it is confined to certain "high =
risk" groups, such as sex workers. The reality is that HIV is =
transmitted where-ever people have multiple partners and unsafe sex. =
Married women are a particularly vulnerable group, because it is very =
difficult for them to ask their husband to use condoms; they can be =
faithful themselves, but have no power to prevent their husbands from =
having affairs; and they risk being raped by their husbands if they try =
to abstain from sex.
Providing PEP (anti-retroviral drugs to prevent HIV infection) to =
survivors of marital rape may also not be feasible. PEP has been used =
for many years to prevent HIV infection in health care workers who have =
sustained needle-stick injuries. Basically, the drugs are taken for 28 =
days after the incident, and prevent infection after a single, high-risk =
exposure. Recently, PEP has been recommended for preventing HIV =
infection after rape, as rape is usually also a single, risk exposure, =
and the same principles apply. However, PEP is not effective where a =
person is repeatedly exposed to HIV. Unfortunately, it is unlikely to =
be effective in situations of marital rape, because there is a good =
chance that if the husband is HIV positive, his wife will already have =
been exposed to the virus during consensual sex (or during previous =
marital rapes). There is also the likelihood that she will be exposed =
again in future, if she continues to live with him. PEP would probably =
only be effective in the rare cases where a woman had not previously =
been infected by an HIV positive husband, and has left him immediately =
after the rape.
As you can see, women's lack of power in sexual relationships =
(including marriage) is a major contributing factor to the spread of =
HIV. Put another way, if we are to successfully combat HIV, we need to =
challenge men's power over women's bodies.
Thanks very much
Chloe Hardy
AIDS Law Project
------=_NextPart_000_0072_01C297A8.F3C21D00
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear All
Thank you so much for a fruitful week =
of discussing=20
a very thorny subject to say the least. This week has also been a sad =
one for us=20
at the office, with Alice taking ill with chicken pox and being in bed =
for the=20
better part of the week. We send her our love and well =
wishes.
Thanks to Chloe for wrapping this weeks =
discussions, as well as for the pertinent issues she raises=20
including:
1.How at the core of the problem =
relating to=20
marital rape ( and any form of rape for that matter) is the gender power =
imbalances, entrenched in cultures and patriarchal ways of =
being.
2. Chloe raises also a more serious =
issue, relating=20
to the difficulty posed to women who may be exposed to HIV repeatedly =
through=20
their husbands, and how this pattern makes almost "futile" the=20
administration of antiretroviral drugs to this section of the=20
community.
We are left then, Chloe re-emphasises, =
with but one=20
sure fire solution in the management of HIV within marriages, where =
women mostly=20
cannot negotiate safe sex, with the collective responsibility, as =
communities,=20
as communicators to work towards ushering in a society where gender =
imbalances=20
are addressed with the urgency they deserve.
A number of Other interesting points =
were raised by=20
all who participated, including:
a. How the HIV pandemic has forced us =
as society to=20
deal with the more underlying social ills that give rise to the =
festering of the=20
problem with which we sit.
b. The economic problems that make =
ARV's out of=20
reach for the poorest of the poor, the majority of which are =
women.
c. The legal problems that women face =
in=20
reconciling what rights they may be afforded by Human Rights Instruments =
) and=20
the conflict between those instruments and the local laws that =
apply to=20
women personally.In particular within a cultural context, the naming of =
marital=20
rape as rape
d. The trauma through which survivors =
of rape have=20
to go through in "proving that their rape meets the country defined =
criteria"=20
for rape, amounting to their revictimisation.
e. We also heard the anecdotal account =
of the going=20
ons in Namibia currently, regards the Combating of Domestic =
Violence Bill,=20
and the response it has received, dubbed private and bedroom=20
politics.
f. Malawi's provided a succinct and =
clear picture=20
on what compounds the problems of access to ARV's where the region =
facing =20
co-inciding major problems that require an economic solution, with =
poverty high=20
up on the list, but also demonstrating the interlinkedness of all these =
problems=20
and how they continue to feed the pandemic.
Cultural beliefs were highlighted again =
as being at=20
the core of the pandemic and how in plays itself out in terms of=20
gender.
It's also encouraging, to see how =
amongst each=20
other, questions of language, which society pays little attention to =
often, crop=20
up and we as communicators are on the alert to remind one another of the =
use of=20
non exclusionary language.
The issues brought up so succinctly by =
Chloe in=20
wrapping up as well as the observations listed above, provide a lot more =
scope=20
for discussion.
Lets continue to talk and perhaps try =
and say, in=20
the quanandram we face, (multiple exposure to HIV rendering the=20
administration of ARV's "futile") how do we begin to empower women, or =
provide=20
space for women to empower themselves, to claim or reclaim the power to=20
negotiate safer sex, in light of their economic reliance and cultural =
obligation=20
to men.
Lets continue to talk.
Yours in Alice's shoes.
Lindiwe Nkutha
PS: watch this space in response to the =
question=20
"how do we view archived contributions by group members"
----- Original Message -----
From:=20
Chloe=20
Hardy